Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

foxwoods 20/40.. i'm new to the table but half the table is very familiar w/ my play.. although their previous experience w/ me has been that I am a HUUUGE nit, they are relatively careless and are willing to take a flop and peel regardless.

I get a raise UTG+1 from a relatively loose 2-bettor regular, yet he basically never 4-bets and his 3-bets demand respect into a large field (marky walnuts) for those whom regular the foxwoods game.

I 3-bet from the CO w/ A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

VERY loose retarded regular (norman) for all you foxwoods regulars, calls 2.5 bets cold in the SB ( not very uncommon in this game ), UTG+1 calls.

flop comes 10 high w/ two blanks (2,4)

checked to me and i bet, sb calls, utg+1 thinks and says something along the lines of (ehh, too much money i call). for those of you whom know mark.. he talks quite a bit and I am able to pick up a great deal of information on his hand when he does this.. maybe the retarded regulars dont.. but i know i do.

turn is a J.. checked to me and i bet, sb raises, utg+1 calls... for your sakes i had planned on 3-betting SB if it had gotten to HU.. if you know norman you'd understand why.. he gets slightly out of line in weird spots when there are two solid players in the pot.. trying to prove something probably.

so i fold.

anyhow, results are unimportant really.. it went check, check on the river and SB showed the other AQ and UTG+1 showed KJo, scooping the pot.

i verbally announced that had it been HU between me and SB, i would have 3-bet his bet on the turn b/c i was like 99% positive he's folding to a 3-bet there.. he tends to get VERY timid if you show aggression and he has air. then utg+1 tells me he would have folded if SB had folded on the turn.. but there was "too much money" in the pot.


my post is basically a question of my reasoning in the hand.. since i can compare the foxwoods 20/40 to the commerce 20/40 for those whom have never played the foxwoods goldmine.

am i crazy or did i just have a good read?

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

see the river for one more bet.
youre getting about 10:1.
and you have somewhere between.
4-10 outs.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

you folded getting 11:1 with 2 overs and a gutshot closing the action. yes, you're crazy.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

see i'm not so sure you guys are correct here considering the game we're talking about here.. how many J-X hands arent containing one of my good cards?

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

All that aside, why'd you bet the turn?

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

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All that aside, why'd you bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

to be completely honest i thought i was ahead.

2-bet ranges from UTG+1 are huge.. and SB is a weaktight nitty idiot who happened to pull a move probably for the first time in his life.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

that turn fold is amazingly horrible. if one player turned over TT, and the other turned over JJ, the turn is still a call. WTF?!?!?!?!?!

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

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to be completely honest i thought i was ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair.

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SB is a weaktight nitty idiot who happened to pull a move probably for the first time in his life.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you said he gets out of line in multiplayer pots? And you're going to 3 bet him? I don't get it. I guess the 3 bet plan is ok if he's raising for a FSD OOP, which is awesome.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
that turn fold is amazingly horrible. if one player turned over TT, and the other turned over JJ, the turn is still a call. WTF?!?!?!?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

bob i'm facing a call from a preflop caller for 2 bets cold and a preflop raiser calling my turn continuation bet.. and this is bad?

how many of my outs are live after the J pops up?

and say the river comes a Q or an A.. am i good? how many bets am i prepared to pay off if one of them comes?

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

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to be completely honest i thought i was ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair.

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SB is a weaktight nitty idiot who happened to pull a move probably for the first time in his life.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you said he gets out of line in multiplayer pots? And you're going to 3 bet him? I don't get it. I guess the 3 bet plan is ok if he's raising for a FSD OOP, which is awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, your fold is horrid. And I think the bet is pretty bad too. Go Jets.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

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that turn fold is amazingly horrible. if one player turned over TT, and the other turned over JJ, the turn is still a call. WTF?!?!?!?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

bob i'm facing a call from a preflop caller for 2 bets cold and a preflop raiser calling my turn continuation bet.. and this is bad?

how many of my outs are live after the J pops up?

and say the river comes a Q or an A.. am i good? how many bets am i prepared to pay off if one of them comes?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting 11:1 immediate odds on a gutshot to the nuts, You see this, right?

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All that aside, why'd you bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

to be completely honest i thought i was ahead.

2-bet ranges from UTG+1 are huge.. and SB is a weaktight nitty idiot who happened to pull a move probably for the first time in his life.

[/ QUOTE ]

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for your sakes i had planned on 3-betting SB if it had gotten to HU.. if you know norman you'd understand why.. he gets slightly out of line in weird spots when there are two solid players in the pot.. trying to prove something probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

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that turn fold is amazingly horrible. if one player turned over TT, and the other turned over JJ, the turn is still a call. WTF?!?!?!?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

bob i'm facing a call from a preflop caller for 2 bets cold and a preflop raiser calling my turn continuation bet.. and this is bad?

how many of my outs are live after the J pops up?

and say the river comes a Q or an A.. am i good? how many bets am i prepared to pay off if one of them comes?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting 11:1 immediate odds on a gutshot to the nuts, You see this, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

assuming my outs are good.. how many JX hands are strong enough to be calling 2 bets cold and raising UTG+1?

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

to be completely honest i thought i was ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair.

[ QUOTE ]
SB is a weaktight nitty idiot who happened to pull a move probably for the first time in his life.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you said he gets out of line in multiplayer pots? And you're going to 3 bet him? I don't get it. I guess the 3 bet plan is ok if he's raising for a FSD OOP, which is awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, your fold is horrid. And I think the bet is pretty bad too. Go Jets.

[/ QUOTE ]

why is the bet bad?

i think utg+1 is folding a lot of underpairs to my c-bet on the turn.. my image in this game from past history is that i am VERY nitty/solid.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

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that turn fold is amazingly horrible. if one player turned over TT, and the other turned over JJ, the turn is still a call. WTF?!?!?!?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

bob i'm facing a call from a preflop caller for 2 bets cold and a preflop raiser calling my turn continuation bet.. and this is bad?

how many of my outs are live after the J pops up?

and say the river comes a Q or an A.. am i good? how many bets am i prepared to pay off if one of them comes?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting 11:1 immediate odds on a gutshot to the nuts, You see this, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

assuming my outs are good.. how many JX hands are strong enough to be calling 2 bets cold and raising UTG+1?

[/ QUOTE ]

a king is good here every single time.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

to be completely honest i thought i was ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair.

[ QUOTE ]
SB is a weaktight nitty idiot who happened to pull a move probably for the first time in his life.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you said he gets out of line in multiplayer pots? And you're going to 3 bet him? I don't get it. I guess the 3 bet plan is ok if he's raising for a FSD OOP, which is awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, your fold is horrid. And I think the bet is pretty bad too. Go Jets.

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agreed. i don't like this turn bet at all.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

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assuming my outs are good.. how many JX hands are strong enough to be calling 2 bets cold and raising UTG+1?

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WTF are you talking about? Is there any scenario in which your king outs are not good? Is there any scenario in which you're not getting enough padding to call and spike a king?

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

to be completely honest i thought i was ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair.

[ QUOTE ]
SB is a weaktight nitty idiot who happened to pull a move probably for the first time in his life.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you said he gets out of line in multiplayer pots? And you're going to 3 bet him? I don't get it. I guess the 3 bet plan is ok if he's raising for a FSD OOP, which is awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, your fold is horrid. And I think the bet is pretty bad too. Go Jets.

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agreed. i don't like this turn bet at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you think checking and calling is better?

what if its two bets back to me (when i know for SURE utg+1 is gonna try to isolate utg+1 from me)?

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

to be completely honest i thought i was ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair.

[ QUOTE ]
SB is a weaktight nitty idiot who happened to pull a move probably for the first time in his life.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you said he gets out of line in multiplayer pots? And you're going to 3 bet him? I don't get it. I guess the 3 bet plan is ok if he's raising for a FSD OOP, which is awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, your fold is horrid. And I think the bet is pretty bad too. Go Jets.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. i don't like this turn bet at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you think checking and calling is better?

what if its two bets back to me (when i know for SURE utg+1 is gonna try to isolate utg+1 from me)?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're IN [censored] POSITION. WTF is wrong with you?

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

Oh, and Go Jets.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

to be completely honest i thought i was ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair.

[ QUOTE ]
SB is a weaktight nitty idiot who happened to pull a move probably for the first time in his life.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you said he gets out of line in multiplayer pots? And you're going to 3 bet him? I don't get it. I guess the 3 bet plan is ok if he's raising for a FSD OOP, which is awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, your fold is horrid. And I think the bet is pretty bad too. Go Jets.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. i don't like this turn bet at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you think checking and calling is better?

what if its two bets back to me (when i know for SURE utg+1 is gonna try to isolate utg+1 from me)?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're IN [censored] POSITION. WTF is wrong with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm...what brett said.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

to be completely honest i thought i was ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair.

[ QUOTE ]
SB is a weaktight nitty idiot who happened to pull a move probably for the first time in his life.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you said he gets out of line in multiplayer pots? And you're going to 3 bet him? I don't get it. I guess the 3 bet plan is ok if he's raising for a FSD OOP, which is awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, your fold is horrid. And I think the bet is pretty bad too. Go Jets.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. i don't like this turn bet at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you think checking and calling is better?

what if its two bets back to me (when i know for SURE utg+1 is gonna try to isolate utg+1 from me)?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're IN [censored] POSITION. WTF is wrong with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok brett.. relax.. my point is that sb is a fish in the game and everybody at the table knows this.

foxwoods 20/40 games are known to be extremely loose aggro/passive.. so my point is that utg+1 is a regular and i think if i dont bet this turn i'm missing out on some fold equity from utg+1 who is a regular and loose.. but not retarded.. if i have him for a pair and he makes the incorrect fold on the turn is that not profitable to make him do an incorrect fold and bet HU w/ the bad player?!

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]

foxwoods 20/40 games are known to be extremely loose aggro/passive.. so my point is that utg+1 is a regular and i think if i dont bet this turn i'm missing out on some fold equity from utg+1 who is a regular and loose.. but not retarded.. if i have him for a pair and he makes the incorrect fold on the turn is that not profitable to make him do an incorrect fold and bet HU w/ the bad player?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am relaxed, I just didn't understand why you're talking about checking and calling when you can check and see a free river. That's the second time in this thread where from one moment to the next you said something that made no sense in re: something you said just before. If you're drunk its cool, but that's your thing.

You're aiming for way too big a parlay here versus two guys who are alternatively nits and weak and crazy and out of line. Check the turn.

edit: oh, you're talking about checking the turn and calling the river? Well, if that's what you're talking about then it depends on what the river is, who bets, and who calls, etc. But the % of time you can make a good decision on the river is def greater than the % of time you get value from utg AND get the sb to make a bad fold or whatever else you want this turn bet to accomplish.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

foxwoods 20/40 games are known to be extremely loose aggro/passive.. so my point is that utg+1 is a regular and i think if i dont bet this turn i'm missing out on some fold equity from utg+1 who is a regular and loose.. but not retarded.. if i have him for a pair and he makes the incorrect fold on the turn is that not profitable to make him do an incorrect fold and bet HU w/ the bad player?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am relaxed, I just didn't understand why you're talking about checking and calling when you can check and see a free river. That's the second time in this thread where from one moment to the next you said something that made no sense in re: something you said just before. If you're drunk its cool, but that's your thing.

You're aiming for way too big a parlay here versus two guys who are alternatively nits and weak and crazy and out of line. Check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

again.....what brett said.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that turn fold is amazingly horrible. if one player turned over TT, and the other turned over JJ, the turn is still a call. WTF?!?!?!?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

bob i'm facing a call from a preflop caller for 2 bets cold and a preflop raiser calling my turn continuation bet.. and this is bad?

how many of my outs are live after the J pops up?

and say the river comes a Q or an A.. am i good? how many bets am i prepared to pay off if one of them comes?

[/ QUOTE ]

A king is live. even if you assume you will fold to an A or Q, you still have odd to call the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

foxwoods 20/40 games are known to be extremely loose aggro/passive.. so my point is that utg+1 is a regular and i think if i dont bet this turn i'm missing out on some fold equity from utg+1 who is a regular and loose.. but not retarded.. if i have him for a pair and he makes the incorrect fold on the turn is that not profitable to make him do an incorrect fold and bet HU w/ the bad player?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am relaxed, I just didn't understand why you're talking about checking and calling when you can check and see a free river. That's the second time in this thread where from one moment to the next you said something that made no sense in re: something you said just before. If you're drunk its cool, but that's your thing.

You're aiming for way too big a parlay here versus two guys who are alternatively nits and weak and crazy and out of line. Check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

again.....what brett said.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i agree the turn check is probably best.. the reason i bet initially was b/c i was pretty sure i was ahead and could force UTG+1 out w/ a better hand.. when SB raises.. utg+1 realizes im probably never folding for one bet.. and calls w/ his J.

for future reference say i check and SB bets, UTG+1 calls you peel?

also say i check they call check and the river is a Q.. what it doooooo?

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

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for future reference say i check and SB bets, UTG+1 calls you peel?

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you check and "peel?" Once you check the dealer is going to deal the river. You're in the cutoff right? Playing SB and utg+1? They both checked the turn, right?

This is where I'd notmally say WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU GO JETS!

And on the river, again, you see the action. If the river goes bet-call, I'd prob raise and fold to more action from SB. If it goes bet-raise, well, then you've got a decision to make.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

foxwoods 20/40 games are known to be extremely loose aggro/passive.. so my point is that utg+1 is a regular and i think if i dont bet this turn i'm missing out on some fold equity from utg+1 who is a regular and loose.. but not retarded.. if i have him for a pair and he makes the incorrect fold on the turn is that not profitable to make him do an incorrect fold and bet HU w/ the bad player?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am relaxed, I just didn't understand why you're talking about checking and calling when you can check and see a free river. That's the second time in this thread where from one moment to the next you said something that made no sense in re: something you said just before. If you're drunk its cool, but that's your thing.

You're aiming for way too big a parlay here versus two guys who are alternatively nits and weak and crazy and out of line. Check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

again.....what brett said.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i agree the turn check is probably best.. the reason i bet initially was b/c i was pretty sure i was ahead and could force UTG+1 out w/ a better hand.. when SB raises.. utg+1 realizes im probably never folding for one bet.. and calls w/ his J.

for future reference say i check and SB bets, UTG+1 calls you peel?

also say i check they call check and the river is a Q.. what it doooooo?

[/ QUOTE ]

play poker.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

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for future reference say i check and SB bets, UTG+1 calls you peel?

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you check and "peel?" Once you check the dealer is going to deal the river. You're in the cutoff right? Playing SB and utg+1? They both checked the turn, right?

This is where I'd notmally say WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU GO JETS!

And on the river, again, you see the action. If the river goes bet-call, I'd prob raise and fold to more action from SB. If it goes bet-raise, well, then you've got a decision to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol screw the jets.. theyre gonna lose to the pats anyhow [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]


anyways.. yes, taking the free card would have been better i suppose.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

im convinced op has lost his mind.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

Norman is back!!!!

That's the best news that I've heard in a couple of months. Guess it's time for a trip down there.

Walnuts is LAG PF but is pretty straightforward post flop; he would 4-bet AA-QQ and AK when he sees that Norman is in and yes he does give off tells. So it's pretty obvious that he's peeling the flop with overs.

Norman can't play poker, but he's not a total retard. FWIW he's a pretty good chess player. I can't remember exactly, but he's got a decent ranking. He does make moves at pots, but usually his timing is way off.

On the play of the hand, it's all been said already.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

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im convinced op has lost his mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's right Bill.

I was at this table but was not paying attention, so I did not realize what all the commotion was about after.

Bill, you MUST call this turn. Yes you might be reversely dominated by AK, QJ, AJ, and I understand why you'd be nervous about rivering an ace or a queen, but regardless play some poker.

This is a bad turn bet and a worse fold.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

Either the OP forgot to mention there was a flush/draw on board, or the hand was incorrectly described, because op has made no indication he knows that a king on the river would bring him A-high straight, aka broadway, aka the nuts!

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Norman is back!!!!

That's the best news that I've heard in a couple of months. Guess it's time for a trip down there.

Walnuts is LAG PF but is pretty straightforward post flop; he would 4-bet AA-QQ and AK when he sees that Norman is in and yes he does give off tells. So it's pretty obvious that he's peeling the flop with overs.

Norman can't play poker, but he's not a total retard. FWIW he's a pretty good chess player. I can't remember exactly, but he's got a decent ranking. He does make moves at pots, but usually his timing is way off.

On the play of the hand, it's all been said already.

[/ QUOTE ]

good to hear from you barry.. hope you're doing well.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

you should fold preflop.

i would play it the same way preflop and on the flop. the turn is just terrible, as everyone has said.

also, telling people that you were gonna bluff them cuz you know they're FOS is stupid, unless you're playing to boost your ego and not to make money.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

This is an easy 3 bet if Marky Walnuts is playing badly, (85%) of the time, but I would fold preflop if he is at the beggining of his session and thus hasn't gone on tilt yet or if he is protecting a win (15% of the time). As already mentioned you must check the turn in this spot, and I would plan on calling the river if 1) Norman bets and Mark folds or 2(if Norman checks and Mark bets.

Also discussing strategic decisions you would have or might make is suicide in this game. You are supposed to be making the fish think that you do not make moves in this game and I would also suggest that you limit 3 bet bluff moves against fish like Norman. The real money in this game is in value betting and playing aggresively in the correct spots. This is not the right spot even though you had a tie for the best hand. Remember this is live poker against fish and advanced internet 3 betting with A high isn't needed against them nor is it usually profitable.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

since when is the foxwoods 20-40 a great game? I havent played it in a few years but I heard from many pple that it's the toughest 20-40 in the country. I dont ever remember it being particularly good either.

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

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since when is the foxwoods 20-40 a great game? I havent played it in a few years but I heard from many pple that it's the toughest 20-40 in the country. I dont ever remember it being particularly good either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wha?!?!??!

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

lol. If this is a tough game i would like to see what a good game looks like!

Re: Foxwoods 20/40 Thin spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I havent played it in a few years but I heard from many pple that it's the toughest 20-40 in the country

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's really funny. Whoever you heard that from doesn't play very well as it may very well be the best 20/40 game in the country.