Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

I understand that in most houses the dealer keeps their own tokes which is the incentive to deal a swift and pleasant game.

Some pool the tokes.

Would anyone know where I could find any hard data that would show how many hands per down a dealer gets out under each of those scenarios?

I was directed to Masons 3 Essays, and after a quick scanning didn't find anything.

Thanks for any consideration I could receive, David

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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Would anyone know where I could find any hard data that would show how many hands per down a dealer gets out under each of those scenarios?

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First off, no one keeps this kind of data anywhere. It just doesn't exist and never will.

Lets just say, pooling toke system is a great way to decrease the hands per hour on average and kill the amount dealers make. Also, the overall quality of dealers is sure to be much less.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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First off, no one keeps this kind of data anywhere. It just doesn't exist and never will.

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I'm sure Foxwoods has a very good idea how much rake per hour they get out of a table. Even on time-charged games, the Shufflemaster might keep records.

Now getting that data from them would be a much thornier question.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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Now getting that data from them would be a much thornier question.

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That's exactly my point. No one will have this information generally available to anyone. But Foxwoods can't even compare the amount of hands on pooled tokes vs non pooled tokes because they dont have access to non pooled HPH.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

Right, I was imagining that you'd have to compare FW data to the majority of rooms where they keep tokes. But since they would never share that data it's a non-starter.

Maybe some academic could get them to release it on an "anonymous" time-delay basis (e.g. 5 years). The anonymous part doesn't matter too much since there aren't many big rooms that pool.

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I spoke w/ Kathy I think it is @ FW back in '03. They pool and she isn't happy with that.

I work @ Ho-Chunk in WI and we are re-opening in 9 days.

That is what I am researching. Everyone says "don't do it", I just think since it's such a prevailing opinion, there should be some data on the subject.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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That is what I am researching. Everyone says "don't do it", I just think since it's such a prevailing opinion, there should be some data on the subject.

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I don't want this to sound snide, but a basic principle of free enterprise is that incentives work. Individual dealers can markedly impact what they earn through efficiency and offering pleasant service. It's a self driven form of compensation.

Dealing seems like a very dreary job. Providing the hope that doing the job well will increase one's income seems to be a rather beneficial manifestation of capitalism. How can it be beneficial for the better dealers to support the indifferent?

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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I spoke w/ Kathy I think it is @ FW back in '03. They pool and she isn't happy with that.

I work @ Ho-Chunk in WI and we are re-opening in 9 days.

That is what I am researching. Everyone says "don't do it", I just think since it's such a prevailing opinion, there should be some data on the subject.

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The data would be garbage anyway. What are you wanting to know? Ignoring the disincentives to work hard when pooliong any good dealers that might be at Foxwoods will soon leave to go some place where they can keep their own tokes. In places where they do pool there are going to be other things wrong with the games becasue there are certain to be other things they are unfamiliar with as far as running a poker room.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

I can offer some personal experience.

I wrote a letter and sent some email to Indiana Gaming in support of poker dealers keeping their own tips. It was approved and the poker dealers at Caesar's IN now keep their own tips. The dealers are much happier, the games are faster and more professional.

If you have a choice, absolutely insist that the dealers keep their own tips. If you ever want to know why, go play poker at Casino Aztar in Evansville, IN.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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Ignoring the disincentives to work hard when pooliong any good dealers that might be at Foxwoods will soon leave to go some place where they can keep their own tokes.

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Anecdotally, most of the good FW dealers (yes, there are some) have told me that they have other motives to stay in CT -- family, school, the usual. It makes sense, really. For most people dealing isn't a profession they'd move to pursue at the highest levels and get rewarded better for, just a way to pay the bills. This even holds for some who take pride in doing it well.

If there were a casino down the street letting dealers keep tokes, I'm sure they'd take all the good FW dealers in an instant. But ironically I think it was the misdeeds of the "casino down the street" that led them to institute this policy if I'm not wrong.

To whomever mentioned Kathy Raymond: She's now at the Venetian in LV, last I heard.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

Actually, you are missinformed about Foxwoods being pooled because of Mohegan. Foxwoods has pooled for 12 years with any and all dealers. Mohegan was keep your own up to the day they closed.

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Detroit pools, and the union(s) won't let them switch to dealers keeping their own.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

Thanks, I stand corrected.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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Detroit pools, and the union(s) won't let them switch to dealers keeping their own.

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That makes no sense. If the union represents the best interest of its members, it seems that the union would push for the elimination of tip pooling, at least for poker dealers.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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First off, no one keeps this kind of data anywhere. It just doesn't exist and never will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure Foxwoods has a very good idea how much rake per hour they get out of a table. Even on time-charged games, the Shufflemaster might keep records.

Now getting that data from them would be a much thornier question.

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I can tell you right now that nobody has any idea.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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First off, no one keeps this kind of data anywhere. It just doesn't exist and never will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure Foxwoods has a very good idea how much rake per hour they get out of a table. Even on time-charged games, the Shufflemaster might keep records.

Now getting that data from them would be a much thornier question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you right now that nobody has any idea.

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Unless Foxwoods is managed worse than I imagined you are wrong. I have seen figures for what different games palces I have worked drop. No, I won't be sharing those, but casinos enjoy making money and they are always looking for ways to make more money.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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First off, no one keeps this kind of data anywhere. It just doesn't exist and never will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure Foxwoods has a very good idea how much rake per hour they get out of a table. Even on time-charged games, the Shufflemaster might keep records.

Now getting that data from them would be a much thornier question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you right now that nobody has any idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless Foxwoods is managed worse than I imagined you are wrong. I have seen figures for what different games palces I have worked drop. No, I won't be sharing those, but casinos enjoy making money and they are always looking for ways to make more money.

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Randy,

To the best of my knowledge, Foxwoods IS managed very poorly. I would not be surprised at anything that comes out of there.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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First off, no one keeps this kind of data anywhere. It just doesn't exist and never will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure Foxwoods has a very good idea how much rake per hour they get out of a table. Even on time-charged games, the Shufflemaster might keep records.

Now getting that data from them would be a much thornier question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you right now that nobody has any idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless Foxwoods is managed worse than I imagined you are wrong. I have seen figures for what different games palces I have worked drop. No, I won't be sharing those, but casinos enjoy making money and they are always looking for ways to make more money.

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Well, I could be wrong then, but I feel fairly confident in my assumption for the poker room. Table games I wouldn't doubt a second, but the ethernet ports are all empty on every shuffler I've seen, and I've seen a bunch.(We look under the tables to try and replug the shufflers in with our feet.)

Also: When getting evals dealer speed is based on how fast you are dealing when a floor watches and counts in a time frame.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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Unless Foxwoods is managed worse than I imagined you are wrong.

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It really is. There are quite a few folks that can hardly wait until the "place down the street" reopens it's room. Of course, it wasn't run very well either, but the whole place is much nicer.

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To whomever mentioned Kathy Raymond: She's now at the Venetian in LV, last I heard.


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But for how much longer. I'm sure the room isn't living up to anyone's expectation.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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Detroit pools, and the union(s) won't let them switch to dealers keeping their own.

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That makes no sense. If the union represents the best interest of its members, it seems that the union would push for the elimination of tip pooling, at least for poker dealers.

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Not if your pooling with the pit. In which case if keep your own benefits the poker dealers it would be against the interestes of the union members who deal in the pits to allow the Poker dealers to keep their own.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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Detroit pools, and the union(s) won't let them switch to dealers keeping their own.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes no sense. If the union represents the best interest of its members, it seems that the union would push for the elimination of tip pooling, at least for poker dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if your pooling with the pit. In which case if keep your own benefits the poker dealers it would be against the interestes of the union members who deal in the pits to allow the Poker dealers to keep their own.

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Right. A keep your own tips policy benefits some subset of union members, to the probable detriment of others. And most unions are all about uniformity...making sure nobody gets something that everybody doesn't get. And yet, I'd wager the overall tokes would increase in a keep-your-own system, so there would be net benefit to the members. But it'd come at the cost of having to smile more, be polite all the time, dealer faster, pay more attention. And think about poor Joe, who's been doing this job for 35 years and hates life and every player that walks in the door and makes sure they all know it--poor Joe would be left destitute by a keep your own tokes policy, so we can't have that.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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Would anyone know where I could find any hard data that would show how many hands per down a dealer gets out under each of those scenarios?

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As others have said, most data like this would be either (a) very unscientific, (b) of a nature that casinos would like to keep secret, or most probably (c) both.

I play mostly in Indiana, and dealers keeping their own tokes at Majestic Star II in Gary has been "real soon now" since September.

Mrs. Lossage will be out of town for work quite a bit between now and Easter, so I expect to be playing a lot of B&M. I've resolved for 2007 to keep better B&M records, so I'll try and count my hands for my sessions before and after the toke distribution change. If this works out, I'll report the results.

It's not very scientific, but it's something. And, since it's one casino with more or less the same set of dealers, the results would be far and away better than comparing hands per hour between, say, Foxwoods and Wynn.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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but the ethernet ports are all empty on every shuffler I've seen, and I've seen a bunch.(We look under the tables to try and replug the shufflers in with our feet.)

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They know how much money is in the box when they open it up and count it. They know how long there was a game on the table. Finding out the drop per hour is trivial.

Re: Dealers sharing vs keeping their own tokes
 

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First off, no one keeps this kind of data anywhere. It just doesn't exist and never will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure Foxwoods has a very good idea how much rake per hour they get out of a table. Even on time-charged games, the Shufflemaster might keep records.

Now getting that data from them would be a much thornier question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you right now that nobody has any idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless Foxwoods is managed worse than I imagined you are wrong. I have seen figures for what different games palces I have worked drop. No, I won't be sharing those, but casinos enjoy making money and they are always looking for ways to make more money.

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Randy,

To the best of my knowledge, Foxwoods IS managed very poorly. I would not be surprised at anything that comes out of there.

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I know it is managed poorly, but I can't imagine they don't keep track of how much money they make.