I hate schneids
 

live 30/60.
i open in the hijack with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], schneids 3bets from the SB, BB folds, I 4bet, he calls.

flop HU: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
check, i bet, he calls.

turn: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
schneids bets, I.........

Re: I hate schneids
 

fold.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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fold.

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what does he have that he plays this way?

Re: I hate schneids
 

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fold.

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what does he have that he plays this way?

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I really dont know but you have shown considerable strength and he has to figure you have something with showdown value the vast majority of the time. If he wanted to blow you off of your hand I suspect he would usually choose a different line and therefore I think he is usually betting for value/to deny a free card.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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fold.

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what does he have that he plays this way?

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I really dont know but you have shown considerable strength and he has to figure you have something with showdown value the vast majority of the time. If he wanted to blow you off of your hand I suspect he would usually choose a different line and therefore I think he is usually betting for value/to deny a free card.

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so, he either has something huge here or air?

Re: I hate schneids
 

Is violence an option?

Re: I hate schneids
 

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fold.

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what does he have that he plays this way?

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I really dont know but you have shown considerable strength and he has to figure you have something with showdown value the vast majority of the time. If he wanted to blow you off of your hand I suspect he would usually choose a different line and therefore I think he is usually betting for value/to deny a free card.

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so, he either has something huge here or air?

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No, I don't think so. He could of course have either of those, but I think something in between is far more likely. I suspect usually something showdownable that he figures to be ahead of your range but not something strong that he wants a bunch of chips to go in.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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fold.

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what does he have that he plays this way?

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I really dont know but you have shown considerable strength and he has to figure you have something with showdown value the vast majority of the time. If he wanted to blow you off of your hand I suspect he would usually choose a different line and therefore I think he is usually betting for value/to deny a free card.

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so, he either has something huge here or air?

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No, I don't think so. He could of course have either of those, but I think something in between is far more likely. I suspect usually something showdownable that he figures to be ahead of your range but not something strong that he wants a bunch of chips to go in.

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ok, but what is that? i 4bet preflop. that narrows my range a bit. he 3bet preflop vs. my open which, given my position, was not necessarily a steal. nothing makes sense for him other than something like 55 that doesn't want me to take a free river card, and against that hand i have to call.

Re: I hate schneids
 

fish like to donkbet turn when they pickup a draw

Re: I hate schneids
 

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fish like to donkbet turn when they pickup a draw

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so, he has KcQc or some variation here?

Re: I hate schneids
 

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ok, but what is that? i 4bet preflop. that narrows my range a bit. he 3bet preflop vs. my open which, given my position, was not necessarily a steal. nothing makes sense for him other than something like 55 that doesn't want me to take a free river card, and against that hand i have to call.

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I'm really not sure what specifically he could have. But his range is plenty wide preflop and he is capable of peeling with all of it. He can have any of the pairs out there as well as a variety of pocket pairs. If you knew you had 6 outs then you could call the turn and fold the river. Since you don't it's a little more difficult. I did overlook the pot size originally and it is probably closer to call for me than I realized. I still think I have to fold unless I think he is somewhat likely to have a draw.

Re: I hate schneids
 

he has A7. call it down.

Re: I hate schneids
 

I don't know. If you're in his spot how often would you expect him to fold the river after calling the turn and as a corollary how often would you expect him to bluff the river if you called the turn?
Sometimes I play a big hand like this because it's a lot less obvious turn 3bet attempt than if you donk/call the flop. I'm not sure if anyone else does this though.
One thing I am confident of is I doubt he respects your preflop 4bet as much as you think he does.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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fish like to donkbet turn when they pickup a draw

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so, he has KcQc or some variation here?

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Bob,

I know pretty much everyone gives you [censored] for [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]ing schneids on this site. Wouldn't you know his range better than us? It's not what would schneids 3-bet here pf, but what would he 3-bet you with pf?

I play with krantz a lot. I will 3-bet him lite because he opens lite, so he started capping me lite. So against him I am usually looking to bet/3bet this turn, even if it's just a draw. Because he has ace hi a lot.

How does schneids play at you here? I feel like any answer I give is worse than yours should be.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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It's not what would schneids 3-bet here pf, but what would he 3-bet you with pf?

I play with krantz a lot. I will 3-bet him lite because he opens lite, so he started capping me lite. So against him I am usually looking to bet/3bet this turn, even if it's just a draw. Because he has ace hi a lot.

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There may be a lot that's applicable here. PB has had a bit of an inferiority complex vis a vis Mike in the past. In his posts recently his is showing that he's fighting back, perhaps now raising and 4-beting light PF.

With respect to the hand, you play against Mike a fair amount of the time. How much does he go for the c/c, donk/3-bet line nowadays? How often does he mix that up with draws? Have you been folding much of the time or have you been going to showdown a lot.

If I assume that you are on a "I'm not going to let Mike push me around anymore" mode, and since you 4-bet PF he's much more likely to have you in bad shape than than he's firing w/ air or a draw. The chances that you are ahead (even if you are ahead he probably has lots of outs) or have 6 outs are not high enough for you to continue vs. you being behind to something like AT or A9 and having 3 outs for you to do anything but fold here.

Re: I hate schneids
 

This is completely read and history dependent. I don't think he ever folds to a raise here though.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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fish like to donkbet turn when they pickup a draw

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so, he has KcQc or some variation here?

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Bob,

I know pretty much everyone gives you [censored] for [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]ing schneids on this site. Wouldn't you know his range better than us? It's not what would schneids 3-bet here pf, but what would he 3-bet you with pf?



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there are many things i could say about my man [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for schneids, but at this point all i'd like to share is that we do not play together nearly as often as most likely think. in the past he has viewed me as weak-tight and rather straight-forward. i 4bet preflop so that he could fold a hand like AQ UI later on in the hand, and perhaps a smaller pair if the board got scary.

your question is a good one though, and i do not know what he would 3bet me preflop with here. he may do it more lightly as he may think i will be scared of it, i'm just not sure as we really have not played all that much against one another. i do know that he is capable of having just about anything at any time in the canterbury 30 game, as he likes to intentionally put himself in odd spots to challenge himself.

goofball made a great observation when talking about this and via AIM. he said "i think that this is a great time to ask yourself 'what does he want me to do here?'"

Re: I hate schneids
 

"in the past he has viewed me as weak-tight and rather straight-forward. i 4bet preflop so that he could fold a hand like AQ UI later on in the hand, and perhaps a smaller pair if the board got scary."

you say this in just about every post you make with schnieds or bk or whoever. i would imagine at this point they realize you are capable of burning money and allow you to do so.

Re: I hate schneids
 

So Victor,

Call or fold?

EDIT: FWIW I agree and fold.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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but at this point all i'd like to share is that we do not play together nearly as often as most likely think.

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I'm not sure how often you play at the same table as him or how often you think that we think that you play against him. For me a session of decent length 3 or 4 times a month on a regular basis would be more than enough to be enough.

Heck, I'm in Vegas only 4 or 5 times a year; but can remember how many of the folks play even if I only see them a couple of times each trip.

Re: I hate schneids
 

I doubt a fold is correct here. I would be very surprised if any hands better than 1 pair are in his range here given how the hand played out.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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I doubt a fold is correct here. I would be very surprised if any hands better than 1 pair are in his range here given how the hand played out.

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i was thinking the same thing, but then i couldnt figure out what he had.

Re: I hate schneids
 

I think this is a close-ish fold, with pretty much all of his range ahead of you. I put him mostly on any ace that's dominating or reverse dominating you or a smallish pair.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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I think this is a close-ish fold, with pretty much all of his range ahead of you. I put him mostly on any ace that's dominating or reverse dominating you or a smallish pair.

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i'm not sure he bets an ace that has me RD, as he would hate to get raised and is very unlikely to get drawn out on.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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i'm not sure he bets an ace that has me RD, as he would hate to get raised and is very likely to get drawn out on.

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You keep saying schneids used to view you as weak tight, do you think it's possible that now he thinks you spew too much against him ? He may easily be giving you the rope here with one pair hands hoping you will try to muscle him out.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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i'm not sure he bets an ace that has me RD, as he would hate to get raised and is very likely to get drawn out on.

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You keep saying schneids used to view you as weak tight, do you think it's possible that now he thinks you spew too much against him ? He may easily be giving you the rope here with one pair hands hoping you will try to muscle him out.

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well, i don't raise because he never folds anything, so i don't think he thinks i'm gonna try to get him off anything.

Re: I hate schneids
 

The answer is clearly to find a slew of hands that you can beat and call down. Especially with a board like that there's lots of straight draws (OESD or gutshots) that I could have, and you beat all of them and hold one of the cards that are key to me being able to river you if I have a straight draw.

The biggest thing about making pots big is you have to get creative in finding ways to not fold. Don't 4bet preflop if you're gonna fold ace high on this board, is what I'd say.

Of course, I know what I had too, so, maybe there's some non-objectivity in my views [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I hate schneids
 

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i'm not sure he bets an ace that has me RD, as he would hate to get raised and is very likely to get drawn out on.

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You keep saying schneids used to view you as weak tight, do you think it's possible that now he thinks you spew too much against him ? He may easily be giving you the rope here with one pair hands hoping you will try to muscle him out.

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well, i don't raise because he never folds anything, so i don't think he thinks i'm gonna try to get him off anything.

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This hand is really too much of but he knows what i know what he knows thing, the call here could only be warranted by some existing dynamic between you and him which none of us have any clue about. However if he's betting a hand he's not folding, it would seem like he has you beat so you should fold ?

Re: I hate schneids
 

typically when I see a donkey bet or some strange play that I can't figure, where I can't put my villain on a hand or range, I go into call down mode if I have SD value. this is not necessarily correct, but hasn't gotten me slaughtered either. I also try to avoid playing with other strong players on a regular basis.

Re: I hate schneids
 

honestly dont cap preflop, with your history not capping brings just as much doubt into schneids mind about your holding, plus your equity agaisnt a good player here is [censored].

i know this will sound stupid but on this turn he either has you smoked, or is on a draw, question is what is he capable of doing when on both? i doubt he folds any hand you beat here (even AQ) but the real question is what does he do ith his draw? will he three town you? follow through on the river or give up?

chose what you think he will do and take the best line. In my experience dont tried and get to complicated with very good aggressive players, the always run good against guys like us

Re: I hate schneids
 

however in this exact spot i really think he is looking to three town you, i fold and doubt really think to much about it.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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I doubt a fold is correct here. I would be very surprised if any hands better than 1 pair are in his range here given how the hand played out.

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i was thinking the same thing, but then i couldnt figure out what he had.

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One pair or less.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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I doubt a fold is correct here. I would be very surprised if any hands better than 1 pair are in his range here given how the hand played out.

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i was thinking the same thing, but then i couldnt figure out what he had.

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CAn you think of any hands other than maybe A9s that he plays like this that are ahead of you?

Re: I hate schneids
 

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honestly dont cap preflop, with your history not capping brings just as much doubt into schneids mind about your holding, plus your equity agaisnt a good player here is [censored].

i know this will sound stupid but on this turn he either has you smoked, or is on a draw, question is what is he capable of doing when on both? i doubt he folds any hand you beat here (even AQ) but the real question is what does he do ith his draw? will he three town you? follow through on the river or give up?

chose what you think he will do and take the best line. In my experience dont tried and get to complicated with very good aggressive players, the always run good against guys like us

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The reason they always run good against guys like you is because they intimidate you into playing bad. Hence, you wind up giving them tons to free draws, and they will hit their gutshots etc x% of the time, which looks like they're always getting lucky. And many of the times they don't hit, they're able to bet you off the pot, so you never even knew they had nothing.

This is what this metagame stuff is all about.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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I doubt a fold is correct here. I would be very surprised if any hands better than 1 pair are in his range here given how the hand played out.

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i was thinking the same thing, but then i couldnt figure out what he had.

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CAn you think of any hands other than maybe A9s that he plays like this that are ahead of you?

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the more i think about it, i think he often plays a hand like 55 this way that doesn't want a free card to fall. the other issue is that he is indeed capbale of bet/3betting me here with nothing.

results
 

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live 30/60.
i open in the hijack with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], schneids 3bets from the SB, BB folds, I 4bet, he calls.

flop HU: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
check, i bet, he calls.

turn: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
schneids bets, I.........

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.....tanked and was confused because his line made no sense to me, so i folded. he had J8. i think it was soooooted, but i know he didnt have a flush draw on the turn.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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I also try to avoid playing with other strong players on a regular basis.

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So do I, but playing with experts occasionally is a great learning tool. Plus, I have to make Schneids posts for Gildwulf.

Re: results
 

fwiw, it was unsooted.

Re: results
 

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fwiw, it was unsooted.

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interesting. could you explain why you made this play preflop? is this standard for you against a good player like bob?

also, do you think folding the flop is horrible? i know you are getting 9:1 or whatever, but you only have an overcard which may or may not be good, a backdoor st draw. do you typically never fold on the flop heads up in a capped pot? just curious, cuz i sometimes do, and want to know if this is wrong.

Re: I hate schneids
 

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fish like to donkbet turn when they pickup a draw

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schneids is a fish!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]