Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

I'm guessing pretty much everyone here has a basic understanding of EV, and knows that nearly all casino table games are designed to be strictly -EV to the player.

If you really understand this concept, can table games still be fun? I know some people like to play roulette or slots to blow off steam, but I don't understand how people can actually enjoy playing a game when they know it's -EV (especially coinflip-type bets). Does anyone here genuinely enjoy table games for stakes comparable to your poker games?

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

yes

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

I like to play a few bucks in slot machines for fun. Mainly because it's really cheap and mindless.


Only interested in table games I can have an advantage at. BJ Bores me, though I like dice influencing.

On the otherhand, while tilting last weekend, I went to Hawaiian Gardens and played 4/8 Hold Em - this isn't poker so much as bingo. 7-9 players to a flop, raised or capped most hands. It's silly yet fun - and riding along with everyone is certainly -EV. Most pots are > 200, and everyone calls down to me end. Probably not much different than BJ...

AB

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

No, -EV gambling has no fun, going to the casino and turning monies into 98% of monies on average is dull.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

how are 75% VP$IP 25BB/hand avg pots -EV [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

LOL.

Everyone stays in, more people suck out.

Here's one example:

I have AA, the one other guy that can play has KK. We are re-raising the crap out of each other. PF, Flop, and Turn are capped.

Along the way are 2 calling stations. One of whom has 52o. He flops bottom pair, and rivers another deuce for trip deuces. Calling station bets. Other player and I say "WTF" and here just call, and look at the CS in disgust.

WTF?!?

I dunno - IO can never tell if I'm second best or crushing people in these games.

Raising causes a fenzy of re-raising, but not folding.

Calling just donates more to whoever is going to suck out.

Folding is frequently wrong because of pot odds. These guys are check raising the river with friggin jack high.


Everyone wins about the same, $5 rake makes it -EV.

AHHHHHH!


Maybe I should stick to chess...

AB

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

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yes

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Yes, if you enjoy monetary fluctuations regardless of EV. Just look at all of the good poker players that like to play craps for fun.

But for OP..the answer is probably no. No big deal, ain't your thang.

I don't find it stimulating whatsoever. I'd rather drop money in video game arcade machines, but that's just me. When slot machines == more interactive like that, then I'll revise my opinion. Old mechanical slots are pretty cool, but I'd rather collect them than play them.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

Before I was 21, I said I'd never play a -EV casino game.
Then, I hit up Vegas and those games are a lot of fun to playing while drinking and hanging out with friends.
You have to let yourself get caught up in the game despite knowing that you're just giving away money a little at a time.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the otherhand, while tilting last weekend, I went to Hawaiian Gardens and played 4/8 Hold Em - this isn't poker so much as bingo. 7-9 players to a flop, raised or capped most hands. It's silly yet fun - and riding along with everyone is certainly -EV. Most pots are > 200, and everyone calls down to me end. Probably not much different than BJ...

AB

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, OP was directing the question at people who understand EV.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

Of coure it can.

It's called "Paying for entertainment"

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

i love sticking it to the house

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

I think the more interesting question is:
What mechanics in the brain allow us to gain utility (fun/positive stimulation) from a situation where we know we will be losing resources that took time and energy to make?

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the more interesting question is:
What mechanics in the brain allow us to gain utility (fun/positive stimulation) from a situation where we know we will be losing resources that took time and energy to make?

[/ QUOTE ]

This part of the premise is false. We don't know we'll be losing. We're more likely to lose than win, but we certainly win a fair percentage of the time.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

the premise of the entire post is that you know its -ev and you fully understand what ev is

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

i keep thinking about it, and maybe we're looking at the situation incorrectly. It might be -ev in terms of pure monetary considerations, but when you add in emotional highs from winning, it might turn ev neutral or even ev+

for example, and this is not a very subtle example, but lets say you take a girl for a 2 month anniversary to the casino, you set your money limit, so there's no depression in losing. You're goal, as a proffessional poker player, but vacationing floor game enthusiast is to have fun, spend time and connect to your lady friend, and if you could make some money or at least break even, that'd be great, but not at all required. When you win some small pots you get all excited with your lady friend (or partner or whatever you like), and you an A+ romantic evening, if you lose or break even, you have a B romantic evening.

On a scale of -10 to +10 (-10 is bad, 0 is neutral, +10 is great),
winning + A+ romance = 10 and
losing + B+ romance = 8.75

and expectations for entire trip is to have good but not great or sub-par time
formula for total sample ev is:

(total chance of winning * how much it affects vacation/br) - (total chance of losing * how much it affects your vacation/br)

or

(48% * (10)) - (51% * (8.75)) =
4.8 - 4.46 = .34
.34 is positive, so you're getting +ev for the experience

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

OP is forgetting people are different and in particular gamble for different reasons. If everyone who gambled only did so in +EV situations then there would not be many casinos. Only the truly stupid would play casino games. Bottom line, gambling is entertainment for people and they are willing to spend money on entertainment. Is that really so hard to understnad?

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

we've already accepted the premise that casino gambling is "entertainment". The question is why are we entertained when we know we're going to lose money -- and the entertainment itself is just a function of trying to make money.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

[ QUOTE ]
we've already accepted the premise that casino gambling is "entertainment". The question is why are we entertained when we know we're going to lose money -- and the entertainment itself is just a function of trying to make money.

[/ QUOTE ]

People go out to eat, go to movies, etc. knowing they will lose money. Casino gambling is no different. In all cases the utility gained from the activity is worth more than the money lost.

Paul

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

yes, this is already assumed as well -- the question is why do you gain utility from the activity.

For instance, you go to see a movie, you pay 10 dollars, you're treated to 2-3 hours of high quality, expensively made, emotional, and in some cases logical, stimulation.

You go to a casino, and you spend a couple hundred or a couple thousand dollars and you engage in an activity based on winning money, even though you know you won't win.

you get excitement from having the chance to win, but you could also get that from poker where you know you can win. Yet intelligent people, including myself, enjoy gambling. Why.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

We are monkeys

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

Just quit when you're ahead.

-J

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

Yeah, I've often wondered how poker pros can continue doing that stuff like the table games.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

good point and that does explain a lot.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just quit when you're ahead.

-J

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's an -EV game, you never are truly ahead. You're losing on each bet made. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL.

Everyone stays in, more people suck out.

Here's one example:

I have AA, the one other guy that can play has KK. We are re-raising the crap out of each other. PF, Flop, and Turn are capped.

Along the way are 2 calling stations. One of whom has 52o. He flops bottom pair, and rivers another deuce for trip deuces. Calling station bets. Other player and I say "WTF" and here just call, and look at the CS in disgust.

WTF?!?

I dunno - IO can never tell if I'm second best or crushing people in these games.

Raising causes a fenzy of re-raising, but not folding.

Calling just donates more to whoever is going to suck out.

Folding is frequently wrong because of pot odds. These guys are check raising the river with friggin jack high.


Everyone wins about the same, $5 rake makes it -EV.

AHHHHHH!


Maybe I should stick to chess...

AB

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[ QUOTE ]
AlienBoy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/09/06
Posts: 1628

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Wow.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

...

the activity would more accurately be described as "you go to a casino and place X/Y money in play over N iterations and engage in a series of actions knowing that it is slightly more likely that you will lose than win, given that you refrain from wagering in a suicidal manner."

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

yes.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

You wouldn't be asking this question if you'd ever been on a sick blackjack run

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

You like action...what's there not to understand about that? You can "irrationally enjoy" things that don't yield gains other than simple short-term enjoyment/happiness. (However, Poker does have the interesting feature of allowing both short-term action enjoyment and long-term monetary gain.)

Just don't let it become a nasty vice.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

people are stupid
the end

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

ok, so why do people like action. is it the emotional stimulation? My female roomate tries to get me emotionally stimulated by talking about relationships, but I get no enjoyment/utility out of that. where's the utility you get from gambling.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i keep thinking about it, and maybe we're looking at the situation incorrectly. It might be -ev in terms of pure monetary considerations, but when you add in emotional highs from winning, it might turn ev neutral or even ev+

for example, and this is not a very subtle example, but lets say you take a girl for a 2 month anniversary to the casino, you set your money limit, so there's no depression in losing. You're goal, as a proffessional poker player, but vacationing floor game enthusiast is to have fun, spend time and connect to your lady friend, and if you could make some money or at least break even, that'd be great, but not at all required. When you win some small pots you get all excited with your lady friend (or partner or whatever you like), and you an A+ romantic evening, if you lose or break even, you have a B romantic evening.

On a scale of -10 to +10 (-10 is bad, 0 is neutral, +10 is great),
winning + A+ romance = 10 and
losing + B+ romance = 8.75

and expectations for entire trip is to have good but not great or sub-par time
formula for total sample ev is:

(total chance of winning * how much it affects vacation/br) - (total chance of losing * how much it affects your vacation/br)

or

(48% * (10)) - (51% * (8.75)) =
4.8 - 4.46 = .34
.34 is positive, so you're getting +ev for the experience

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you just make a EV calculations about romance!?
Perhaps its time to ease down on poker for a while...


Regarding the op;
No, I actually HATE gambling with a passion. The only time I like to gamble is when I play poker with my friends...(OMG I know you will call lets push all in with 67s and gammmbbboooollll)

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You wouldn't be asking this question if you'd ever been on a sick blackjack run

[/ QUOTE ]
Blackjack. There is theory and strategy and card counting. Plus, you get to play every single hand. Good entertainmnent dollars for me anyways.

And sometimes you come home with more entertainment dollars than when you left.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AlienBoy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/09/06
Posts: 1628

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hope you can see the sarcasm in my post. I was just frustrated by a recent downswing. The point I was getting at is playing in this game in a -EV way to blow off steam was "fun" like playing craps without precision shooting or BJ without counting.


AB

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok, so why do people like action. is it the emotional stimulation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, probably. Gambling can still be fun even under -EV situations depending on who you are. Just look at all of the people you know that like blackjack and don't even know the near break-even basic strategy.

There's nothing particularly wrong with this, at least to me...although I don't think there's much of an excuse for it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It's kinda like saying having fun is wrong or something. I waste my money on stupid crap like unnecessary gadgets and records or whatever. Some might think that's pretty stupid, but it's fun to me. To each their own.

Fun is often more about emotions of the present, not long-term utility gains...although you do benefit from being happy. Why do people go on those expensive vacations every year? That money could be invested into a 401k plan or whatever!

Also, if you're not a relationship junky, then it's probably more difficult to understand/empathize the emotional stimulation of personal relationships.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You wouldn't be asking this question if you'd ever been on a sick blackjack run

[/ QUOTE ]

I have, back when I was clearing casino bonuses. That's different, because I know each hand is +EV; it gets me closer to cashing out my bonus. It's fun too, because I know it's profitable. But once the WR is up, my brain just automatically views each hand as -.5% Where's the fun in that?

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok, so why do people like action. is it the emotional stimulation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, probably. Gambling can still be fun even under -EV situations depending on who you are. Just look at all of the people you know that like blackjack and don't even know the near break-even basic strategy.

There's nothing particularly wrong with this, at least to me...although I don't think there's much of an excuse for it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It's kinda like saying having fun is wrong or something. I waste my money on stupid crap like unnecessary gadgets and records or whatever. Some might think that's pretty stupid, but it's fun to me. To each their own.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to say that people who enjoy -EV gambling are stupid, I think that's pretty arrogant and the majority of them are comfortably playing within their limits, I just don't understand how it is fun. I've played a few hands of $5 casino blackjack with friends (breakeven strategy, really didn't want to put up with the annoyance of counting). I wasn't trying to make money, I knew my EV was slightly negative. But all I got out of it was "you're losing 2.5c, you're losing 2.5c, you're losing 2.5c." It's peanuts considering you can play $5 blackjack all night for the -EV of not even twenty bucks, but it just doesn't do anything. It just feels like throwing away tiny amounts of money. If I go to a concert or a movie or something, I feel like I'm actually getting entertainment for my money. This just feels like I'm paying for nothing.

Gambling attracts most people because they genuinely don't understand probability; casinos do, and they use their knowledge to seduce people. There are highs and lows, but once the smoke and mirrors are lifted, you're left with EV, and losing money is never fun.

I don't want to call anyone stupid here for enjoying gambling and I don't even see any reason to discourage it, I just don't see how a rational, probabilistic mind can even allow that experience to be fun. It just seems like boring drudgery (and when you take a look at most of the people playing slots or BJ, they definately don't look like they're having a good time).

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

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I just don't see how a rational, probabilistic mind can even allow that experience to be fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

The key word is EMOTION. Even the most logical of minds can react emotionally - it's the nature of being human. Gambling - as opposed to advantage play - plays off emotions.

AB

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just don't see how a rational, probabilistic mind can even allow that experience to be fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

The key word is EMOTION. Even the most logical of minds can react emotionally - it's the nature of being human. Gambling - as opposed to advantage play - plays off emotions.

AB

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Yes, but emotion must react to perception. You experience fear when you hear your door being opened in the middle of the night because you realize that this is a sign that you might be being violently robbed; however if your roommate tells you he's going to be back late, now it's just a sign that he's back and you're not afraid.

Most gamblers gamble because they pick up on incorrect patterns (luck, running hot, having found a lucky number, being due for a win, etc), which make them assign incorrect values to their actions and drive them to keep playing. I would think that someone who really understands EV would not be able to pick up on these false cues.

Re: Can -EV gambling be fun even if you understand EV?
 

OP, if you mean EV in terms of money, then yes its possible to enjoy -EV gambling. If you mean EV in terms of personal utility, then no it isn't. Since by definition -EV of personal utility is un-enjoyable.

For example, every year I probably spend 50-60 dollars (hardly a lot) on lottery tickets because its an amount of money that doesn't effect my living standard at all but has the potential (as tiny as it is) to win me an amount of money that could really effect my life. So even though its -EV in a monetary sense, in utility its +EV.

My personal EV of money is approximately w shaped. At the start each additional dollar is worth less than the one before it because it doesn't effect my standard of living as much as the one before it did. At a certain point I can afford my basic living standard working full time and while extra money is nice it doesn't really change anything (I can still buy what I want, but I still have to work my job).

However, at some point I get to the point where I'd have enough money to quit working full time (I'd still work part time because I enjoy my job I'd just like to do it a little less) and still be able to support my life style. For instance the utility I would get from winning 5 million dollars is more than 50 times as much as I would get from winning $100000 because of the big change in my life it would bring. Once I reach the point where I can support my self through my invested money each additional dollar loses utility.