The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

Let’s say you live in California and like to check out various card rooms just for a change of pace. One of the smaller rooms in your area recently opened and has six or seven tables. You try it and like the atmosphere and the action. It doesn’t seem to be doing as well as it could but you are thinking it should improve over time and you like small rooms. So you put it on your mental list of places to play on occasion.

One day in the middle of the week you visit about 10:00 pm or so. This isn’t a tourist area so you know they aren’t likely to get busier. As you arrive you can see two 6 or 7 handed 1 / 2 blind spread buy NL games. The 1/2 NL has become their most common game and they let you play a little deeper (relative to the BB) than most rooms. You know they don’t use a must move so you take a seat in the shorter game after checking with the floor. Both games are mostly full of regular players who have been around B&M card rooms a while but the game still looks like it has some potential.

You play a while; it’s a relaxing place. In the past you have offered suggestions but this time you decide to simply watch in total silence and try to figure out why they aren’t busier. Here’s what you observe:

- Both games seem about average in action and they stay short for the next hour or two. No one complains regarding getting more players or consolidating games.

- An extremely live player sits down on your table. He plays about an hour. Your game is six handed including the live player. The other game is five handed. He changes tables. Not one player at your table complains that the super live player changed from one short game to another (both tables are in plain view of each other and this isn't allowed in every club you have previouly played in).

- The live player gets busted in the other game and leaves. Now your game is about five handed and the other game is four handed or so. Not one person mentions anything about consolidating games so they stay short for another hour or so. Note that this is in California; even though the drop is reduced to $2 plus $1 jackpot a dollar is taken on no flop and the full drop is taken on any flop.

- Eventually the games are both about four handed including one or two walkers. After another half hour or so of mediocre action the games are finally combined making one nine handed game. During this period no one complained about the games being short.

The nine-handed game is pretty decent. You eventually make a few hands and book a decent win; at one point your chips covered the entire rest of the table combined. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

------------------------

That weekend about mid-evening you stop by to relax and perhaps play a bit after booking a win in a bigger game in another room. This night there is only one 1 /2 NL game going but it is a full game with no board. The game is mostly regulars but there are soft spots. Meanwhile someone else puts their name on the board so you put yourself second up. The floorperson immediately tells you we can start another game. You look around and note you are the only person hanging around. The bar crowd isn’t here yet. This time you let the floor know you are a typical player and really don’t like playing that short in such a small game and are happy to hang out and wait a while.

Within a few minutes a couple seats opens up. You get in and the game is decent and full. After about thirty minutes one player comes in and puts his name on the board. Immediately the floor rushes to start another game. Players move from your game to the new game making both games about five handed. You take a moment to check out the game tag on the new game. Maybe you will move up in limit. But there is no need to change tables and move; it’s the same size game and limit and all but one of the players were in your game moments ago!

Now you wonder if you are in an alternative card room universe. You watch as the original player leaves the other game. Now both games are extremely short and the floor is making no move to combine games since once again no one complains!. You’ve had enough observing. You go home and decide it will be a while before you come back. But you also think you might write a post something like this once you had time to think about it.

Could something like this really happen?

Could something similar to this happen in your local card room?

~ Rick

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

Fold preflop. As played, c/c the flop, c/r the turn once you pickup the redraw.

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

It is an unlikely scenario anywhere I have ever played.

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

WARNING:

Do not go back. They will kill you and eat your brain.

I saw a documentary about this once...

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

This is really hard for me to imagine. I've never played anywhere where players didn't grumble when it got to be less than 7 players. Usually by the time you're down to 5, people start walking or racking up and the game breaks.

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

How many of these players are shills for the house? Keeping 2 short games running is more rpofitable for the house than 1 full game, even with the dropped rake.

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many of these players are shills for the house? Keeping 2 short games running is more rpofitable for the house than 1 full game, even with the dropped rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

situation Rick described does indeed sound like the games were 90% shills.

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1466/rodsplacene5.png

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

I want some of what you're smoking

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many of these players are shills for the house?

[/ QUOTE ]

A "shill" is close enough to what I call a "quasi-prop" for me to call this a good guess.

Most of my opponents during these two sessions are what this particular card room calls "VIP Players". Unlike old Las Vegas style shills they play on their own money.

My understanding is the "VIP Players" get paid 35 cents per hand with a four hour per day minimum and more or less flexible hours. They can be moved from table to table under the supervision of the floor. Apparently a condition of remaining a VIP Player is that you also don't complain.

Most of the VIP Players appear to know who some of the other VIP Players are, but not always,. During one of the two days I played as the observer in the above story I ran into one of many old acquaintances in these games who was obviously one of the VIP players. He was shocked I wasn't in on the "deal" since he has been around long enough that no one will continually play this short at this level. I told him I wanted to come and go as I please and would take the ten cents per hand everyone gets automatically. Plus VIP Players can't write posts like the OP. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]




[ QUOTE ]
Keeping 2 short games running is more profitable for the house than 1 full game, even with the dropped rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

True only in the short run, ie. only if the cardrooms management can't distinguish between a forest and a tree. The problem of course is that any normal (non VIP) player enters into an experience where the games are kept short in a misguided effort to spread more games. Of course spreading more games is great on the surface but card clubs need an increasing real player base to support it.

On a few other days when I stopped by but didn't play I would often see two or three 5 to 7 handed games of 1/2 NL. In a normal cardroom these short to semi-short games would either fill or combine into solid games (otherwise customers usually leave at this level). But if more players came into these games they would attempt to start a third or perhaps a fourth game. There always appeared to be empty seats with multiple games. Of course few complained since most were "VIP Players" who couldn't complain.

More later of course.

~ Rick

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want some of what you're smoking

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's me try JR Cigar

~ Rick

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

that is the bizarro world. usually players start screaming when one player in a full game starts racking up. i almost decked this one obnoxious bastard at the wsop cash games this summer, who insisted on screaming for players, right into my ear.

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

Surely these can not be props in these games, as the complaints would be constant...

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many of these players are shills for the house? Keeping 2 short games running is more rpofitable for the house than 1 full game, even with the dropped rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

situation Rick described does indeed sound like the games were 90% shills.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. That was one of the 1st thoughts I had.

Where you'll see this in much smaller rooms.

b

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

is this at CP?

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

I have only played short-handed for an extended period once, with nobody complaining. it was at the Aviation Club in France.

The closest to a complaint we had was a player who noted that he was going to get up at the next time collection, if we were still 3-handed. He said that as he was paying his time.

I don't know if my experience was typical or not, but I really felt like I was in an alternate universe every time I have played there. (fwiw, i always sat the pot-limit dealer's choice game. Not sure if their other games would be different.)

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

[ QUOTE ]
Surely these can not be props in these games, as the complaints would be constant...

[/ QUOTE ]

One or two of the regular players may be salaried props of some sort. Most of the rest are "VIP Players" earning 35 cents per hand on what looks like the condition that they don't complain about the games being short or started unnaturally. Then on occasion there's me watching the whole thing in what seems to have become morbid curiosity.

~ Rick

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

[ QUOTE ]
is this at CP?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, although a game at Crystal Park with too many salaried props let to this story.

~ Rick

Mystery Uncovered
 

All this really happened in the ePoker Room at Hollywood Park Casino.

I like ePoker and have had fun and profit playing when the game is good. Just pushing those on-screen buttons makes over betting a snap for everybody [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. And often the game can be good, even when you're playing against a table full of "VIP Players" aka "quasi-props". But it's little fun playing in real short or even partially short games when it's easy to see that the tables can be combined into full games (especially when it appears the casino in general is slowing down for the day).

The VIP players apparently can't complain, that' part of their deal. But regular players don't like it and vote with their feet. This means the eRoom is not getting the repeat business it needs.

I think ePoker can succeed somewhere. But it will take a very good understanding of what makes conventional card rooms tick under varying conditions, and working that understanding into the eTable environment. Hollywood Park's eRoom can still turn it around, but it will take attention to the art and details of running a card room to have a chance.

~ Rick

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
All this really happened in the ePoker Room at Hollywood Park Casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad.

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9...dnrobbyxf1.png

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
All this really happened in the ePoker Room at Hollywood Park Casino.


[/ QUOTE ]

Figured it had to be that when you started talking about getting paid per hand.

It's the beginning of the B&M rakeback era. Or something.

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

In my local room we usually only get 2 tables going and we will always play until closing with very few complaints from the players about playing short unless it gets down to 3 players... The house will usually consolidate the table to save on cost of paying the dealer.

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

I was sure that this was CP you were talking about Rick. As I read the story it confirmed everything I saw when I tried it out a while back and why I decided not to return. What should have given it away was the 35 cents per hand since there's no way this could be known for sure at a live table.

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All this really happened in the ePoker Room at Hollywood Park Casino.


[/ QUOTE ]

Figured it had to be that when you started talking about getting paid per hand.

It's the beginning of the B&M rakeback era. Or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try "or something".

An Internet player collection rakeback (usually 25 to 30% or so) isn't told by the cardroom to change tables or get up and help start another game. That said, this rakeback is pretty strong. If the game is ten handed (rare) and everyone collects (lately it seems this is very nearly true) the house is only generating 50 cents per hand or real revenue.

~ Rick

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was sure that this was CP you were talking about Rick. As I read the story it confirmed everything I saw when I tried it out a while back and why I decided not to return. What should have given it away was the 35 cents per hand since there's no way this could be known for sure at a live table.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your second sentence above I'm not clear you are talking about the eRoom or CP. So I better ask before replying. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
In my local room we usually only get 2 tables going and we will always play until closing with very few complaints from the players about playing short unless it gets down to 3 players... The house will usually consolidate the table to save on cost of paying the dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a small, isolated local room I can imagine regulars who will play on knowing that their game isn't going to fill. They understand the two games will be kept as balanced as possible (by putting the occasional new player in the short game).

But my guess as to what usually happens is that once the tables get shorter than about seven handed the slide to the point where you can combine games happens very fast. This assumes low limits of course. At higher limits many players just love to play five-handed or even less. Of course in these games the rake/drop is far smaller in proportion to the action.

In LA, low limit players (outside of props and quasi-props) won't play short and for good reason. Although the amount of the drop is reduced somewhat, it often isn't reduced enough. Then a "modified drop" of $1 is taken even when there is no flop (more common of course in short games). Then a jackpot drop of one dollar is taken on any flop (note: in some clubs, the order of the taking of the jackpot drop and modified drop is reversed). Lastly, the full drop (usually $2 on a five handed game) is taken on any flop.

Finally, keep in mind what happened in the OP went beyond keeping games going short. They would take a full game and remove VIP Players aka quasi-props and have them start a new game of the same size and limit! If you were in the original game you ended up in a five or six handed game with the huge LA drop.

~ Rick

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All this really happened in the ePoker Room at Hollywood Park Casino.


[/ QUOTE ]

Figured it had to be that when you started talking about getting paid per hand.

It's the beginning of the B&M rakeback era. Or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try "or something".

An Internet player collection rakeback (usually 25 to 30% or so) isn't told by the cardroom to change tables or get up and help start another game. That said, this rakeback is pretty strong. If the game is ten handed (rare) and everyone collects (lately it seems this is very nearly true) the house is only generating 50 cents per hand or real revenue.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

The ones that get 25 cents per hand do (they are called props, but all propping online means is they get roughly 100% rake back instead of 30% rake back).

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
The ones that get 25 cents per hand do (they are called props, but all propping online means is they get roughly 100% rake back instead of 30% rake back).

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand the roll of online props and that the VIP players play a similar roll. Unfortunately in the eRoom they are used in a manner which ensures that the room won't grow. For example, online the casual player may not notice the props; in the eRoom it is immediately obvious something isn't "right" (e.g., when a player is approached by the floor and leaves an already short game to play in an even shorter game of the same type and limit).

Of course a normal B&M wouldn't pull a prop from an already short game, they would find another prop or let the other game go unless that other game was high priority (e.g., the prop might be pulled from one of three short 20/40 holdem games to save the only 20/40 stud game).

As an aside, if I ran an online room I'd find a way to pay a 35/15/2 (i.e., very loose, aggressive) prop a lot more than a 15/5/1.5 (very tight, moderately aggressive) prop just for generating the action. I never researched it in depth but I think some online rooms do something like this based on reading a couple posts by stoxtrader.

Anyway, in the eRoom there are a lot of high action props (sorry, I meant VIP Players). This will diminish over time of course as they go busted. But they make the same as the tight VIP Players. One VIP Player is so tight (love when he sits on my left, it's like getting two buttons every round!) that I think he actually averages more in rake back ($3.50 per round) than he puts into the pot per round!

~ Rick

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
As an aside, if I ran an online room I'd find a way to pay a 35/15/2 (i.e., very loose, aggressive) prop a lot more than a 15/5/1.5 (very tight, moderately aggressive) prop just for generating the action. I never researched it in depth but I think some online rooms do something like this based on reading a couple posts by stoxtrader.


[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing I am aware of any doing is paying back actual rake contributed instead of rake/players to each prop.

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As an aside, if I ran an online room I'd find a way to pay a 35/15/2 (i.e., very loose, aggressive) prop a lot more than a 15/5/1.5 (very tight, moderately aggressive) prop just for generating the action. I never researched it in depth but I think some online rooms do something like this based on reading a couple posts by stoxtrader.


[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing I am aware of any doing is paying back actual rake contributed instead of rake/players to each prop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If by "actual rake contributed" you mean that the rake/drop is taken from players who win pots (which I agree with) then I believe this (giving rakeback based on pots won) is a good idea as it punishes overly tight multi-tablers (and most online props are overly tight and multi-table).

In other words action props are worth a lot more than tight props (other things equal, which they are usually not).


~ Rick

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
If by "actual rake contributed" you mean that the rake/crop is taken from players who win pots (which I agree with) then I believe this (giving rakeback based on pots won) is a good idea as it punishes overly tight multi-tablers (and most online props are overly tight and multi-table).

[/ QUOTE ]

By rake contributed I mean your share of the rake when you left the hand. Fold wihtout putting money in you get nothing. Call $3 prelop in a 3 way pot get 1/3 of whatever the rake on a $9 pot is (assuming you fold to the flop action).

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If by "actual rake contributed" you mean that the rake/crop is taken from players who win pots (which I agree with) then I believe this (giving rakeback based on pots won) is a good idea as it punishes overly tight multi-tablers (and most online props are overly tight and multi-table).

[/ QUOTE ]

By rake contributed I mean your share of the rake when you left the hand. Fold wihtout putting money in you get nothing. Call $3 prelop in a 3 way pot get 1/3 of whatever the rake on a $9 pot is (assuming you fold to the flop action).

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be best of all. Pay more for props who participate in pots, tending to help get loose passive games. Pay for people winning pots and you would tend to get loose but aggressive games.

Methods of paying online (or even eTable) props are worth a thread, but my guess it's already been done somewhere on these fifty plus forums. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


~ Rick

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was sure that this was CP you were talking about Rick. As I read the story it confirmed everything I saw when I tried it out a while back and why I decided not to return. What should have given it away was the 35 cents per hand since there's no way this could be known for sure at a live table.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your second sentence above I'm not clear you are talking about the eRoom or CP. So I better ask before replying. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

CP.

Re: Mystery Uncovered
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If by "actual rake contributed" you mean that the rake/crop is taken from players who win pots (which I agree with) then I believe this (giving rakeback based on pots won) is a good idea as it punishes overly tight multi-tablers (and most online props are overly tight and multi-table).

[/ QUOTE ]

By rake contributed I mean your share of the rake when you left the hand. Fold wihtout putting money in you get nothing. Call $3 prelop in a 3 way pot get 1/3 of whatever the rake on a $9 pot is (assuming you fold to the flop action).

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be best of all. Pay more for props who participate in pots, tending to help get loose passive games. Pay for people winning pots and you would tend to get loose but aggressive games.

Methods of paying online (or even eTable) props are worth a thread, but my guess it's already been done somewhere on these fifty plus forums. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

After seeing most of the people playing at this mysterious card room, trying to explain Rake Rebate to this group would be next to impossible.

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

[ QUOTE ]
- An extremely live player sits down on your table. He plays about an hour. Your game is six handed including the live player. The other game is five handed. He changes tables. Not one player at your table complains that the super live player changed from one short game to another (both tables are in plain view of each other and this isn't allowed in every club you have previouly played in).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Before I read the entire thread, this room sounded like heaven. I'd like to point out that accommodating an extremely live player isn't the end of the world. In fact, it's good for poker. The same might be said for players who prefer shorthanded games. If these aren't must-move games (the wisdom of which is another thread), the live players should be allowed to sit where they please.

Maybe the VIP players were nits. If so, they must have had conflicting emotions: glad to see the last of the action player, but distressed at having to play shorthanded.

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
- An extremely live player sits down on your table. He plays about an hour. Your game is six handed including the live player. The other game is five handed. He changes tables. Not one player at your table complains that the super live player changed from one short game to another (both tables are in plain view of each other and this isn't allowed in every club you have previouly played in).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Before I read the entire thread, this room sounded like heaven. I'd like to point out that accommodating an extremely live player isn't the end of the world. In fact, it's good for poker. The same might be said for players who prefer shorthanded games. If these aren't must-move games (the wisdom of which is another thread), the live players should be allowed to sit where they please.[

Maybe the VIP players were nits. If so, they must have had conflicting emotions: glad to see the last of the action player, but distressed at having to play shorthanded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that LA has drop, not rake. Drop is taken in full on any flop regardless of pot size. If no flop $1 is still taken. That means a five handed NL game with 1/2 blinds will see $3 (this includes jackpot and it might actually be $4 at six handed) go down the hole on some very small pots.

Online you can play very small blind NL short; they use a percentage rake with a cap. I've never seen low limit players B&M players in LA willing to play short on a continuous basis (i.e. if they do they play with the expectation that the game will fill).

The VIP Players don't complain because they are told not to as part of receiving 35 cents a hand.

~ Rick

PS That said, the eTable games are occasionally very good and you can book decent wins. But it won't grow unless they keep games at least eight handed.

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

[ QUOTE ]
That said, the eTable games are occasionally very good and you can book decent wins. But it won't grow unless they keep games at least eight handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The E-table games will grow much faster if they adjust the rake/drop to a lower level, especially on short tables.

My next road trip will be up to Hollywood Park to check the E-tables out. When is a good time to find several decent lowish limit NL games?

T

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

[ QUOTE ]
The E-table games will grow much faster if they adjust the rake/drop to a lower level, especially on short tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are legal issues with doing so. Basically my understanding is that the city would view lowering the drop as stealing tax dollars. I am sure Rick or somebody has a better understanding of these issues than I do.

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

[ QUOTE ]
The E-table games will grow much faster if they adjust the rake/drop to a lower level, especially on short tables.

My next road trip will be up to Hollywood Park to check the E-tables out. When is a good time to find several decent lowish limit NL games? - T

[/ QUOTE ]

The too high drop issue was discussed in the original thread on eTables in this forum (I think I linked to it elsewhere in this thread).

Anyway, don't expect more than two or three games. I'd try to go Thursday thru Saturday, and keep in mind days can be good at Hollywood Park because of the horse racing.

Beware of situations described in the OP. You could literally be first up on the board for two full games and they often will start a third game with you pulling players from the full games. Let the floor know you won't go for that.

~ Rick

Re: The Mysterious Card Room Where No One Complains
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That said, the eTable games are occasionally very good and you can book decent wins. But it won't grow unless they keep games at least eight handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The E-table games will grow much faster if they adjust the rake/drop to a lower level, especially on short tables.

My next road trip will be up to Hollywood Park to check the E-tables out. When is a good time to find several decent lowish limit NL games?

T

[/ QUOTE ]

HP Management will not allow two different drop schedules to happen. Not sure if it was a legal reason, or the management wanted indentical drops between live and electronic.