How to beat PLO25
 

I see it as a public service to the game (or at least to readers of this forum) to provide strategies on how to beat a standard 10c/25c PLO game. Here is my contribution, which contains advice I've picked up on this forum, and some of my own conclusions based on research and recent play.

By standard PLO25 tables and opponents, I mean the loose passive game most frequently found at FT, Stars, UB, etc. Basic characteristics: very little preflop raising, almost no re-raises preflop, 3-4 people seeing the flops on average, and not a lot of bluffing post flop.

Before I discuss strategy, to beat this game you need to understand fully how to play pot limit poker and be able to count outs and translate this into knowing how much you can correctly call. For example, if you only have the nut flush draw you probably shouldn't call a pot sized bet. Knowing implied odds will be a bonus that can win you some more money. Lastly, you need to be able to read a board cold and know what the nut straight, full house, etc is. These skills are by no means easy or automatic, and may take a while to master. Depending on your bankroll, PLO2, 10, or 25 is probably a good place to hone these skills.

Strategy.
1. Starting cards. Pairs above 10, straight cards should be 678 or above, and this includes when you have an ace high flush draw too. Play A678s, but not A854s. We are talking top 20% hands or so, and lists are available elsewhere.

2. Position. You pretty much only want to play your very best cards from the small blind. So look for reasons to fold here. Big Blind you will play often because there isn't much raising in these games. If you get into a game with >30 pfr, then this strategy doesn't apply. EP only play premium hands. LP you can loosen up a tiny, tiny bit, but don't over do it.

3. That's probably advice #3, don't overdo any deception or aggression. Do everything about 1/3 of the time that you would think is appropriate, i.e. bluff very little, play king high flushes very little, raise from SB with 789Tds. Deviate very little from correct ABC poker.

4. Raising. Minimum raise or 3BB from the button or cutoff with premium hands. You can do this from early position with premium hands only occasionally if you have opponents that will try and take any pot on the flop if it is checked to them. (These players will identify themselves very quickly.) Basically what you want to do is get your opponents who play 70% of their hands to commit money incorrectly.

5. Flop play. "Tighten up" is what someone advised on this board. Words to live by in a loose passive (preflop) game. If there are 4 ppl seeing every flop, then it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you need to hit a flop fairly hard.
I'm not saying you have to nut peddle, but it's pretty close.

6. Reading opponents based on their flop play. Much like small stakes no limit in a casino, you can never put an opponent on specific cards, just how much they value their hand. Of course you need to adjust this per each opponent, but this is very accomplishable. If you never see a villain play a single hand in the 3 orbits since you sat at the table and he reraises a full pot sized bet on the flop, you can be pretty certain he has the current nuts.
There is a lot of minimum and small betting on the flop; depending on the opponent, this might be flush draw or nothing at all, or the nuts. But each opponent is pretty predictable. If you find a table with opponents you can read, and they aren't loose and aggro, you need to find a new table. (How to beat maniac LAGs who don't know PLO very well or just want to dump their money isn't covered here.)

7. Chat. There is an inordinate amount of chatter that goes on at these tables. Often you can use this information to find out how good someone is, how well they know the game. Mimic the bad chat of bad players.

8. Mistakes. The basic strategy for beating this game is playing ABC poker waiting for someone to make a mistake. You'll have top set vs 2nd set. Someone will bet a flush draw, you'll reraise and they'll put themselves all in, they'll have a straight and you a flush, etc. This doesn't make for that interesting of a game, but I believe it is the best way.

9. Bluffing. You'll want to keep this to a minimum because many of these players will make bad calls (mistakes). You want them to call bad when they have a ten high flush and you an ace high. So how are they going to know when you run a naked ace bluff against them? Pick and choose your best spots to pick up an abandoned pot based on who your opponents are in the hand, their tendencies, your position, your table image, etc. Just don't do it very often.

Here are what my stats look like from today as an example of what I think you might expect for avg VPIP and pot sizes, and at any single table you should expect variation from the average. However, the strategy outlined here should provide less variance than playing more aggressively.
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6...atplo25ny6.jpg

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5...stiionsya8.jpg


I doubt for an extended stretch that anyone could stay at 20bb/100. But I feel that researching, listening to people's advice, reviewing past hands, and thinking about what has worked in the past has led me (back) to this optimal strategy.

Another disclaimer, is that I'd never argue this is the _only_ strategy that works at these games. For example, there are certainly proven winners like The_Rempel who advocate more aggressive strategies. If you are a newer player, I'd certainly recommend trying your hand at a lot of different types of strategies. My ultimate goal is to be able to sit down anywhere at anytime at any game for which I'm properly rolled; identify a winning strategy, and then be able to execute it.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

Thank you, very nicely done. Very thoughtful of you to share. I appreciate yout hard work and thoroughly enjoyed this post.

Would like further comments please as to game site selection. I am finding especially the PL Omaha 8 to be generally terrible i.e. too little action not unlike many of the NLHE games. Can have the rush of your life and make very little etc.

Would GREATLY appreciate your opinion on this issue (and anyone elses please)

Thank you again.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

I agree with the gist of your post, but here are some thoughts on where I deviate from your method (the following is based on my experience at full table PLO at PokerStars):

1) Pre-flop tightness. The key, I believe, it to be significantly tighter than your opponents. There's no need to drop all the way down to 20-25%, so long as you recognize when you're playing with a borderline hand. I also disagree with your advice about not playing A567s. I would argue that just about any suited ace with some kind of straight potential (even if it's marginal) is a solid money earner in position assuming you can limp (or call a mini-raise).

2) Something you didn't specifically mention: buyin for the maximum everytime. Your opponents will make some gargantuan errors so you need to take full advantage. This is particularily true at the nano-levels like 0.01/0.02 on stars where you can buyin for up to 250BB ($5).

3) Bluff sparingly, but semi-bluff in position at almost every opportunity. Here is one of my favourite plays at these levels. It works like a charm at PLO25 (not as well at lower levels because players are too dumb, and not at higher levels because players are too smart):

You flop the nut-flush draw on a board like Q76. It's checked to you and you bet pot from the button. Lots of nice things can now happen. Obviously, everyone will often just fold. More often though 1 or 2 people will call with straight draws and/or a weaker flush draw. If the board pairs on the turn, a half-pot bet will win you the pot almost all the time (the one exception being if it gives your opponent trips). If you hit your flush you will often get significant action from lower flushes and even made straights. If the turn comes a blank you just play poker. The beauty is that if they hit their straight they will often check to you or bet small (like 1/3 pot or less).

This play is one of the main reasons I like playing suited aces in position so much.

4) Second barrel with the naked A bluff doesn't work very often. Most of the time, this bluff will either work immediately or never. At these levels people who are willing to call pot bets on a flush board without the nuts are ridiculously stubborn. Use this to your advantage when you actually have the nuts.

5) If you flop the nut straight with redraws, play it as agressively as possible against most opponents. Most of the time they will have no redraws whatsoever.

6) The size of your opponents bets usually indicate exactly how strong their hand is.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

I should add one more point.

Players at these levels don't understand multi-way draws very well. Try to encourage your opponents to think that you are a "chaser" when you call big bets with a 15+ draw to the nuts. It's in your interest to make them think you are the lucky donkey. Above all, resist the urge to educate them about what you did (this is one of my problems - I have this natural inclination to try to educate people).

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

Guys!! The more I think about it, the more it seems that 'Game Selection, and Quality of the Game is by far the most important aspect of (online) play.

In other words, play Expertly and it does not matter if the games are bad.

I have played now for over 30 years, all games, all limits for a living. Have read the finest material on all games (and DO appreciate this post and it's fine material) but feel at least recently the poor quality of game Action has been so slow from what I have seen (I'm online everyday-night, often 10 hours a day, many sites) that I don't honestly understand how a GOOD hourly wage can be consistantly made at least curently. Maybe it because of Christmas. Or maybe I'm simply mistaken.

You guys are experienced and intelligent, I wish you would address this facet of the Omaha games. I'm really getting discouraged after 6 years of online play. Maybe i just don't get the action I used to. Seems like it's really drying up.

Waddya think please?

Thank you.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

Game selection for me is pretty simple. Loose play is the easiest mistake to take advantage of. At Stars I simply look for the tables with the highest %of players to see the flop and the highest pots, and I'd much rather play at a table with a high flop percentage and a small pot size than the other way around. Once on the table, I look for the usual fishes and if it's populated by nut pedllars or if I find myself playing to the right of a skilled LAG, I'm out.

This has worked nicely for me of late on the PLO50 tables at stars and I can consistently grind out about $5/hour per table. For now, this is plenty for me as it allows me to significantly add to my other income while playing only 1 or 2 hours a day. Hopefully, the recent boom of fishes at Stars will continue.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

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Guys!! The more I think about it, the more it seems that 'Game Selection, and Quality of the Game is by far the most important aspect of (online) play.


[/ QUOTE ]

From the standpoint of maximizing your winnings, outside of being properly bankrolled for a certain buyin level, game selection is very, very important.

And let me state emphatically that I don't think the majority of the $25 max buyin PLO games (aka PLO25) are very good games. The reason for my current interest in playing 6max PLO25 was because it stuck in my craw that I used to be able to beat PLO25 but my overall winrate at at FT, PS's PLO25 had drifted to a negative number. I wanted to devise/follow a strategy to beat the game.

So again, PLO25 is not my best game and it isn't a very good game at all (for most people).

With that said, if you are just learning PLO and/or you don't want to commit that much money to playing, then you aren't going to have many choices for game selection because of skill-level and bankroll. PLO25 may then be your best choice.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

6 Max vs Full handed.
I was playing loose passi ve 6 max only, but I do believe the same holds true for 9 max since it seems about the same number of people see each flop. Full handed you might need a little bit better hands to proceed though.

PREFLOP TIGHTNESS
I agree with you about preflop tightness 30% would work, and I've done that before. The reason why I tightened up is that:
1. I am playing 4-6 tables at a time.
2. Playing more hands increases variance (for me), and often I start at 30 and drift to 40-50 especially if I have a mark in my site. So if I start at 20 then often I might move to 30. And I find that when I start playing 20-30% type of hands with danglers and low pairs, I start to get myself in trouble - it also leads to harder decisions, i.e. does this donkey really have top set this time? So in summary, I agree you can play at 30% and win, it just makes it more difficult and I have no information that it increases my winrate.

STRAIGHTS
I think I said not to play A854s. I would probably play A765s, but not 7652s. I really want to have 3 cards at top of 678, if you do this you are only giving up 3 nut straights (A-5, 2-6, 3-7). Again, this is probably a finer point, you are right you could make money wtih 765, but by not playing it how much money are you leaving on the table?

Also, I don't think I included to not push any flopped straights that have 2 flushes in them. In early position this is a check-call for me, and in position, I would call a raise before me or bet out if it is checked to me.

BUYIN
Buyin for the maximum is fine, but I see advantages to buying in for $10-15.
1. This allows you to let a LAG double you up. And then this might tilt him to get his money back, and he can double you again. Often they don't play well vs smaller stacks, they bet at some pot when you just flopped top set - and it "isn't that much more" for them to see if you have it or chase their flush draw. Often you can triple up in these situations.
2. Allows for easier decisions when you have less information on players.
3. Allows you to occasionally use Rolf's strategy if you have one player raising a bit.
4. If you start with $10 and double up in one hour, that's 20bb/hr, and >20 bb/100 which is enough.

But I think this is also a finer point and probably doesn't matter much one way or the other. Perhaps opponents will play more poorly when you are a medium stack or perhaps you will have fewer opps as a large stack but will score more.

SEMI-BLUFFING
Afer I posted, I was thinking "what did I leave off". I totally agree with you, if a pot is checked to you and you have a good draw bet it if you have fold equity. If you have less fold equity or you have checkraisers or you just have a flush draw, I think I just check behind or maybe a small bet (small bets are very frequent at this level so it won't look suspicious.)

SMALL BET MISTAKE
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6) The size of your opponents bets usually indicate exactly how strong their hand is.

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100% true. Many opponents at this level underbet made (but vulnerable hands, like straights) and let you know exactly how good their hand is. It's ridiculous, but often minimum bet = pair or overpair, a little bit more means TTP or flush draw, etc.
To wit, I will not go after marginal situations, like going after JUST a flush draw when they bet half pot, but as you point out villains way underbet pot (like $1 into $5 pot when they are OOP) and you have a good nut draw or two. I have been taking the really good sales, and passing on those with just small marginal value.

Alternatively, every single time I have the nuts in position or out, I bet full value every single time. Unless it's something like a raised pot preflop, and 5 people see a flop and you are in SB, and you are 90% certain someone will bet behind you. Other than that level of certain, just bet away because this game is about them making mistakes and you want to make sure that when you are holding the nuts, their mistake is as large as possible.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

Troll,

Great post. What is the software used showing your results?

So many points in your post, I will just pick one subject.

Raising preflop
I do very little preflop raising. Your guidelines for raising sounds good, but it's rare to have a premium hand in correct position. I don't like to raise in early position ever since most players will call and you need the nuts postflop to win.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is the software used showing your results?

Raising preflop
I do very little preflop raising. Your guidelines for raising sounds good, but it's rare to have a premium hand in correct position. I don't like to raise in early position ever since most players will call and you need the nuts postflop to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Software is PokerTracker. http://www.pokertracker.com/

I agree with you 100% about preflop raising in this type of loose passive game. (I will also reraise with a premium hand if I'm pretty certain opponent doesn't have aces.)

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

I don't want to hijack this post but I've been playing .10/.25 for a while and have built most of my roll from it. I was originally planning on jumping up to .25/.50 when I hit a grand but I now have 1500 dollars and am still playing .10/.25.

I am just extremely comfortable at this level. I am destroying the games. Since I just got pt I only have 3k hands logged but I am running 25 ptbb/100. I understand that I probably wont be able to maintain this but it just shows how badly I am beating these games.

At this point in time I've decided to wait till I hit 2k and have 40 buyins to play .25/.50. I am just a poor college student and am making around 20 dollars an hour playing .10/.25 which is more then any other job would pay me so you can see why I haven't been in much of a rush to jump up levels. Am I being too much of a bankroll nit and missing out on a lot of earning potential or am i just doing a good job protecting my roll.

By the way, great post and I agree with just about everything you said on beating these games. I'd also like to add that I've noticed a big difference between playing full ring and 6 max at these levels. Full ring can be very profitable just being a nut peddler with very little aggression but playing 6 max really requires you to become much more aggressive and to play and raise more hands from position.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

Posters in this thread are advocating just extreme tightly play; I disagree. I'm the maniac you always see at the table and i advocate mad aggression. People don't know how to play against mad aggression which is why its so effective.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

[ QUOTE ]
Posters in this thread are advocating just extreme tightly play; I disagree. I'm the maniac you always see at the table and i advocate mad aggression. People don't know how to play against mad aggression which is why its so effective.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make a very convincing argument. I take back everything which I wrote in this thread.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Posters in this thread are advocating just extreme tightly play; I disagree. I'm the maniac you always see at the table and i advocate mad aggression. People don't know how to play against mad aggression which is why its so effective.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make a very convincing argument. I take back everything which I wrote in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sense a hint of sarcasm

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

Troll,

There's no doubt that this strategy will beat $25 games and like you said, there are other styles and other strategies that will result in winning poker. However, I think there are some points you make that are not optimal. It also seems like this type of play will not allow you to expand and grow as a player or win for anywhere near as much at especially as you move up in limits.

Here are a few points that stood out the most:

Starting cards - This seems way too tight, especially for 6max.

Position "LP you can loosen up a tiny, tiny bit, but don't over do it." - Again too tight, you can loosen up a lot in LP. This game is all about position - use it.

3 "bluff very little," - Well yes and no. Obviously don't bluff calling stations, but there are a lot of situations that you can pick up the pot with a pure bluff. It's a pretty situational thing to explain, but you just have to pay attention. Don't check behind when you missed your draw only to lose to 2nd pair. If there's a 3way hand that goes check, check, check on the flop, then check on the turn pot it. Agression is good.

Raising - You only mention the CO and button as spots to raise. Obviously, your pfr will be highest from those positions, but you can still be raising from other positions.

Flop play - This is table dependant and in some cases your advice is exactly right. Like if there are a lot of raised pots or games where stack sizes will make it where usually someone is allin by the turn. I think this actually happens at more aggressive mid limit games. At low limits, there not only are a lot of unraised pots, but opponents are betting the pot as frequently or betting the turn as much. In these games, you can peel the flop a lot more liberally in position. It's a pot limit game. You pay a little on the flop and win a lot win you hit or lose nothing when you miss.

To your 2nd post:

Preflop Tightness - It soundslike playing too many tables is the problem here, not your preflop play. Yes, playing more hands leads to closer decisions, but that doesn't mean you shouldnt play them.

Straights - I am raising A765s almost always and I'm almost always playing A854s and 7652s. "Again, this is probably a finer point, you are right you could make money wtih 765, but by not playing it how much money are you leaving on the table?" - If it makes you money, why would you not play it?

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

[ QUOTE ]
Troll,
It also seems like this type of play will not allow you to expand and grow as a player or win for anywhere near as much at especially as you move up in limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Moving up in limits would call for adjustment, tough to disagree. I guess one definition of a good player is to be able to see the adjustments needed as you move up in levels.

I have never heard Omaha is "all about position" before..

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

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I have never heard Omaha is "all about position" before..

[/ QUOTE ]

According to Ciaffone, position is even more important at PLO that at NLHE, mostly because the drawing-out possibilities makes it very dangerous for a made hand to slowplay. That means you can often win the pot uncontested with a pot bet if you are last to act and it is checked to you. So if bluffing is an important tool in your play (and it should be IMO, even at PLO 25), you can play a lot of hands in LP.

Of course, if you follow OP's tight advice and do not bluff often, position is far less important, and you should not loosen up that much. Having a coherent play is very important to beat any game.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I have never heard Omaha is "all about position" before..

[/ QUOTE ]

According to Ciaffone, position is even more important at PLO that at NLHE, mostly because the drawing-out possibilities makes it very dangerous for a made hand to slowplay. That means you can often win the pot uncontested with a pot bet if you are last to act and it is checked to you. So if bluffing is an important tool in your play (and it should be IMO, even at PLO 25), you can play a lot of hands in LP.

Of course, if you follow OP's tight advice and do not bluff often, position is far less important, and you should not loosen up that much. Having a coherent play is very important to beat any game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see, a check in PLO is a better indicator of weakness vs NLHE since it's more dangerous to slowplay in PLO. I will bluff in LP depending on how many to the flop etc. Most hands are 4 to the flop (max 6 players) and that's enough for me to be cautious about bluffing.
I enjoy the game more when there are contrasting players at the table and you can count on a one or two players to take his shots. I like to compare my results with the more aggressive player since I consider myself fairly tight..

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

To the poster who was thinking of moving up from .10/.25 to .25/.5. Dont even worry about it. Take some shots and see how you do. I played plo25 at ub for awhile and decided to play at ftp. I started playing .25/.5 at ftp and havent looked back. As long as you have any semblance of plo knowledge you can beat plo50 for a good amount. I've doubled my roll in about 2500 hands and am crushing that game from about 20bb/100 (which i really do believe is sustainable at that level).

Also, i suggest taking shots at the new mixed games on ftp. The HA game is pretty much fantastic as you can tilt a guy in HE and take the rest of his money in PLO where your advantage comes in.

I'm was like you in terms of br management and then i read the rempel's well thread and decided to try out his ideas (since he plays a similar game to what I like to play). I highly recommend checking that out if your interested in moving up.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

[ QUOTE ]
I see, a check in PLO is a better indicator of weakness vs NLHE since it's more dangerous to slowplay in PLO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is necessarily true on either point.

Bluffing at PLO25
 

The primary problem with bluffing at PLO25 and lower is that players are so loose that 5 or 6 players will often see the flop and they're often willing to call you down with rather marginal hands. These two tendencies together make it difficult to pull off most bluffs often enough to make any money with them.

The following is not meant for PLO experts, who obviously know how to bluff effectively in PLO, but for low level newbies who would like to take advantage of the tendency of many PLO players to give you credit for what you're representing. Much of it is fairly basic "Theory of Poker"/game theory stuff.

NOTE: This is all off the top of my head, so it's probably far from complete. One of the main reasons I'm putting this out there is to hopefully get some constructive feedback.

The probability of a sucessfull bluff greatly depends on these factors:

1) Position
2) Number of players still in play and left to act
3) The texture of the board
4) Stack sizes of you and/or your opponents
5) Who raised pre-flop and your position relative to him
6) How you have played the hand so far (particularily on the turn and river)
7) Your table image and your opponent's table image

1) Position
The most basic bluff in PLO is a 1/2 to full pot bet when it's checked to you in last position on the flop. Another comon bluff is when everyone checks the flop and the turn comes up a brick. Those players in early position now have a chance to represent a failed check-raise attempt by potting immediately.

2) Number of players in play and left to act
It is important to realize that the chances of a bluff succeeding decreases almost exponentially with the number of opponents still in play. Also, if you're in middle to late (but not last) position, the reason no one has bet so far may well be because someone still to act has the nuts. Remember this whenever you consider making a bluff.

Bluffing is by far the most effective heads-up on boards where it's relatively easy for your opponent to give you credit for a superior hand. Flush boards and paired boards are usually the best. Also keep in mind that few players at PLO25 are sophisticated enough to try a bluff-raise (and even if they are, they probably assume you're not sophisticated enough to bluff in the first place so they won't try it very often anyway).

3) Texture of the board
When you bluff you're trying to represent a strong made hand. This works best when the number of potential draws is minimized. Probably the worst time to try a bluff is on a board like 589 with two suits. Someone will usually call you here so you will probably be forced to play it fast to the end hoping it will come brick-brick (and there aren't may ways you can expect two bricks to fall).

Another example of a poor time to bluff is on a paired board against many opponents. The odds that nobody has at least trips is much too small if you're against 4 or more players. However, this bluff works extremely well gainst 2 or heads up. The same applies to flush boards and (to a lesser extent) made straights on a rainbow board.

A related concept is betting scare cards (when a card comes that completes a flush, straight, or pairs the board on what was previously a straight or flush board). Since so many players (even the winning ones) play weak-tight ABC poker at these levels it is often fairly obvious when they're drawing and when they have a big hand. These same players also tend to give you credit for having all the draws covered. The primary defence against this bluff is to play well co-ordinated hands and bet your draws as strong as your made hands.

4) Stack sizes
Bluffs work best when everyone is fairly deep stacked relative to the current pot, but not so deep that they have excellent implied odds (or it's so cheap to call that they almost don't care). If there's a short stack at the tale (especially if it's you) bluffing loses much of its appeal.

5) Pre-flop raiser and relative position
The pre-flop raiser will often be credited for having AA/KK no matter what their actual tendencies are. If you raised without AA, it's often in your interest to play as if you have AA when flop suits a hand like AA well (i.e. an A high flop or when the board features low cards with a pair, like 733). Also, it's more risky to bluff after the pre-flop raiser has checked to you since someone one in early position could well be looking to make a check-raise.

6) How you're played the hand so far
It is absolutely vital that the way you've played the hand so far be consistent with what you're representing. This is particularily true on the turn and especially the river.

The Rempel recently posted a hand in which his opponent made the blunder of bluffing on a straight board when it was obvious nobody had the nuts. The mistake was that, given how he had played his hand to that point, it was obvious that he didn't have the nuts either. you can only get away with this against the most unimaginative of nitty players.

7) Your table image and your opponent's table image
For obvious reasons, bluffs work best if you have the image of being a tight player and you're playing against other tight players. The correct balance between bluffs and nut peddling is dificult to quantify. Probably the easiest way to identify if you bluff often enough (or to rarely) is to note those situations where you were tempted to try a bluff, but chickened out. If the ammount of money you would have won by bluffing more is significantly greater than what you would have lost then lean towards bluffing when you're unsure.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

[ QUOTE ]
PREFLOP TIGHTNESS
... Playing more hands increases variance (for me), and often I start at 30 and drift to 40-50 especially if I have a mark in my site. So if I start at 20 then often I might move to 30. And I find that when I start playing 20-30% type of hands with danglers and low pairs, I start to get myself in trouble - it also leads to harder decisions, i.e. does this donkey really have top set this time? So in summary, I agree you can play at 30% and win, it just makes it more difficult and I have no information that it increases my winrate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot to reply to this. One of the primary reasons to play marginal hands is to enhance the action you get with your better hands. In fact, it's often in your interest to play some -EV hands if this loosens up your image enough to earn you more +EV on your bigger hands. A similar (and probably significantly stronger) agrument can be made for raising with some -EV hands since this can dramatically increase the action you get with your best hands.

This comes from a player who knows he should raise far more often.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

[ QUOTE ]

I forgot to reply to this. One of the primary reasons to play marginal hands is to enhance the action you get with your better hands. In fact, it's often in your interest to play some -EV hands if this loosens up your image enough to earn you more +EV on your bigger hands. A similar (and probably significantly stronger) agrument can be made for raising with some -EV hands since this can dramatically increase the action you get with your best hands.

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This may be true against opponents are paying attention and understand what they are doing.

I think that you and Piiop are overthinking this. We are not talking about a discussion of playing against good PLO players, if you find players that are doing more than looking at their own cards (and playing them incorrectly) find another table.

And again, same disclaimers - more than one way to beat PLO25 and this is a small point I believe, i.e. I can't imagine there being a great overall difference in EV here (either way).

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

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This may be true against opponents are paying attention and understand what they are doing.

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Even at PLO 25, a significant fraction (albeit a probable minority) of your opponets will understand. Also, there will always be players who are half-way along. You need to cater to their partial understanding too.

The again, maybe it's just that Stars has disproportionately more decent PLO25 players than FT.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

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However, I think there are some points you make that are not optimal. It also seems like this type of play will not allow you to expand and grow as a player or win for anywhere near as much at especially as you move up in limits.

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I'm working on a detailed response to your points since I played both ways and opinions on both. However, it is not clear to me if you are speaking from experience at beating loose passive PLO25-ish game with poor opponents or you are speaking theoretically?

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

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To the poster who was thinking of moving up from .10/.25 to .25/.5. Dont even worry about it. Take some shots and see how you do. I played plo25 at ub for awhile and decided to play at ftp. I started playing .25/.5 at ftp and havent looked back. As long as you have any semblance of plo knowledge you can beat plo50 for a good amount. I've doubled my roll in about 2500 hands and am crushing that game from about 20bb/100 (which i really do believe is sustainable at that level).

Also, i suggest taking shots at the new mixed games on ftp. The HA game is pretty much fantastic as you can tilt a guy in HE and take the rest of his money in PLO where your advantage comes in.

I'm was like you in terms of br management and then i read the rempel's well thread and decided to try out his ideas (since he plays a similar game to what I like to play). I highly recommend checking that out if your interested in moving up.

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I tried the PLO50. Only adjustment made was tighter hand selection since preflop raising was more frequent. Post flop aggression was higher as well. Could have been just this table though.

Re: How to beat PLO25
 

"There's no doubt that this strategy will beat $25 games and like you said, there are other styles and other strategies that will result in winning poker. However, I think there are some points you make that are not optimal. It also seems like this type of play will not allow you to expand and grow as a player or win for anywhere near as much at especially as you move up in limits."

I disagree strongly that learning and implementing a winning strategy for beating a loose passive PLO25 game will prevent further growth of a player. Yes, the player should be aware that all games are not the same, and this basic strategy has its limits. But as long as you are aware that differences exist between games, then I don't see why you can't continue to learn what is needed to beat other types of PLO games.

"Here are a few points that stood out the most:
Starting cards - This seems way too tight, especially for 6max."

Playing tight will lead to fewer difficult decisions on the flop. Also, it should reduce the high variance associated with PLO cash game results. This is beneficial to the beginning player. Again, I want to point out that I feel that my instructions are aimed not for an experienced PLO player to beat PLO25, but rather a beginning-intermediate player.

"Position 'LP you can loosen up a tiny, tiny bit, but don't over do it.' - Again too tight, you can loosen up a lot in LP. This game is all about position - use it."

I think the best way to use position in these games is to build bigger pots when you have good cards in good position.

"3. 'bluff very little' - Well yes and no. Obviously don't bluff calling stations, but there are a lot of situations that you can pick
up the pot with a pure bluff. It's a pretty situational thing to explain, but you just have to pay attention. Don't check behind when you missed your draw only to lose to 2nd pair. If there's a 3way hand that goes check, check, check on the flop, then check on the turn pot it. Agression is good."

I agree 100% with this.

"Raising - You only mention the CO and button as spots to raise. Obviously, your pfr will be highest from those positions, but you can still be raising from other positions."

I think it depends on the table dynamics. With my strategy, I don't want anyone behind me in a raised pot, unless they will bluff at anything checked to them on the flop and will play big big pots postflop.