99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

Villain is obviously the one and only straate. I won one 100bb pot off him earlier w/o a showdown but otherwise we're not fighting or playing eachother excessively loose.
Turn play is debatable, but I think is ok. What am I supposed to think about on the river??

During my river and timebank, the following chat occurs:
Hero said, "straate"
Hero said, "i dont like this"
Hero said, "i think u got me"
straate said, "im bringin sexy baaack"
....

Does that change anything??

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB ($227.50)
UTG ($400)
MP ($379.75)
<font color="#C00000">CO ($858.55)</font>
Button ($312)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($1328.25)</font>

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $16</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $14, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($36) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $24</font>, Hero calls $24.

Turn: ($84) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $32</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $100</font>, Hero calls $68.

River: ($284) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $190</font>, Hero...

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

why did you donk lead turn like that?

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee bet

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

[ QUOTE ]
why did you donk lead turn like that?

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously I wanna know the same thing, i don't know that there's going to be any great explanation.

but as played, since oyu donked the turn, i feel like you have to call the river, and when you call the river, you're almost always behid.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

what aejones said

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

[ QUOTE ]
i feel like you have to call the river, and when you call the river, you're almost always behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

So fold then. I don't get it.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

he had to call because he induced a bluff

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i feel like you have to call the river, and when you call the river, you're almost always behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

So fold then. I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, not exactly. the thing is, you donk into him, you've got to want him to raise, right? no one is folding to a third of the pot- or at least that shouldn't be the intention of the bet. So then he raises, and to me it looks like a raise for value, liek a pretty strong pair. So when he raises, you call, and you call becuase you had to want him to raise, right? becuase you donked into him. you didn't CC and give him a chance to fire a second barrel, you gave him a chance to raise your donk bet, which was okay IF you wanted him to do that, so he's following in line with what oyu want him to do, right? still feels like for value to me. anyways, you get to the river, and he doesn't even fire full pot, and he's got to know about waht you have (prob weights to 77/88 actually) so he's got about TT/JJish, or a STRONG boat hand, and he's setting his price that you'll pay him.

and basically, you dug your own grave, becuase he's doing what you WANTED him to do, based on the design of your bet, but at the same time you're doing what he wants you to do. so, in my opinion, he pwned you. obv i could be wrong and straate could be throwing out some sick bluff, but my opinion is that he pwned you and he got paid and laid in the shade.

ya dig?

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

[ QUOTE ]
ya dig?

[/ QUOTE ]

That explanation makes sense. The following two statements just don't jive:

1) you are behind almost every time on the river.
2) you have to call.

I think it is a decent plan on the turn, but shouldn't we be flexible enough to change our mind on the river?

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

efficacy, obviously what you're saying makes perfect sense.

however, you should know that this type of thinking is ridiculously exploitable. that is, all straate has to say is that "he will never donk into me with the nuts" (irrelevant if it's true or not). so now straate decides he's got EXACTLY what he's got, so he raises. he can raise equally because he's got the best hand, or becuase he knows op doesn't have the nuts, do you see? judging from this information, it would make this situation WAY WAY WAY too easy for straate to bluff (not to mention he's fairly aggressive). since it's too exploitable to let him bluff here AND you've induced it becuase it was your PLAN (which leads me to say that you should, well, have a better plan in the first place) you need to call to follow through on him doing what you wanted him to do.

however, if you REALLY just read the river bet size as "he always bets big as a bluff, and thsi EXACT size for value, i know becuase I've played thousands of hands with him, etc etc" THEN you can fold. as i said i thin kthe riv is prob for value based on size, BUT straate is a winning player assumedly and he's smart enough to switch up bet sizing on the river for value and for a bluff, therefore in theory you shoudl not be able to tell if he's bluffing or betting for value, i know i sure as hell don't give out info on that i'm consistent accross the board about bluffs and v bets on the end. so basically, folding on the river is inconsistent with the rest of the hand. ya dig?

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

Ya I dig. Given this description of the opponent, I don't really like the plan of inducing a bluff raise on the turn. I'm not sure it's +EV, but it definitely seems ++++variance, no?

Also, If I am donking this turn with mid over pairs I'd also like to be doing this with the nuts. How does that sound?

Thanks for your detailed explanations of your thought process.

NL noob,
Ryan

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

3 bet turn % of time as a bluff.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

that would be the worst bluff ive ever seen.

what is he repping?? 66?

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn play is debatable, but I think is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

No and no.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

Like the chat hate the play

wtf is up with the donkbetttt

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

i think u should reraise the flop allin, i mean if he calls with a flush draw ur better than 50/50

also he might call with just a 6 thinkin that ur on the FD

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

Are you guys saying donking turn is bad because he donked so small or because it's a bad play in general?

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

66, 45, a2

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

u think he plays 45 or A2 oop? i dont.

66 is the only had i would give him credict for here -ever

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

why did you donk the turn so small?
As played, I'd lean towards fold.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

Well a small donk lead like that is just begging straate to steal the pot away so I guess call river.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you guys saying donking turn is bad because he donked so small or because it's a bad play in general?

[/ QUOTE ]
against a thinking player it's just bad in general.

EDIT: the size of the donk bet is not a problem, and if we do decide to donk bet then I actually like the small bet since it's a much better way of inducing a bluff, if that's what we really want to do.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

i dont know villian but i think its a cool line with a big hand like that bc it does look real fishy, and also whether or not it represents a hand its a bluff that you really dont see ever at 400, if he shows a bluff here its not so bad bc i would much rather play against someone incapable of making that play.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

i think its fine to call here with 45s and A2s this deep if you dont have a hard on for you like most people do.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

I am for sure 3-betting this PF against a normal TAG.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am for sure 3-betting this PF against a normal TAG and 100% against Straate

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

you are liek 220 bb's deep, that should change your 3betting frequencies against regulars- i think some it makes it higher and some less.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

looks good, now push

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

easy fold on the river. yeah yeah, straate "bluffs a lot" but i think this is a fold and not close

oh yeah turn is super bad

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

someone tell me why:
1. we need to 3bet this hand 100% of the time preflop
2. we need to 3bet this hand 100% of the time espeically against straate
3. why it is ok to call river here (give me a range of straate's hands and give me a range of what straate probably perceives is in hero's hand range?)

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

Straate is raising a ton of hands from the CO. He will fold a lot of them and you can get a better idea of a range to put him on.

I don't 3 bet this all the time from the blinds but I think you should be often unless you plan on just playing for set value.

Straate has a very large range here and I believe it could be a bluff a decent percentage of the time.

The way hero played it I think it's very difficult to put him on a range. Calling here is gambool.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

fair enough (pretty much what i expected to hear)

that being said, i stil prefer call. 3betting him here isnt going to clarify his range one bit, pre or postflop.

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

VP if you called here PF would you check fold turn?

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

check call because its straate

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

Blank river? check call again?

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

im pretty sure i'd just spike a 9 on the river and crai

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

This is so terrible on every street

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is so terrible on every street

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

I think you should either raise the flop and fold to a push, or fold the turn

Re: 99 Deep stacked with Straate
 

FFS.