Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

"What odds would you set on a UFC world champion (your choice, answer for any or many weight classes) vs a 100 pound chimpanzee?"

Assuming the chimpanzee knew it was in a fight from the git go, the answer would depend on whether there are some lethal or semi lethal blows that the human is aware of. I don't know about that. If there isn't, the chimpanzee is the dead nuts.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

sorry i cant stop laughing

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

"Can't I fight human-style? By slowly poisoning his environment?"

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

If the chimp were allowed to bite, scratch, gouge, etc. perhaps it would have a chance. Otherwise, the human fighter would have too much of a skill edge to lose. It would stand to reason that this edge would grow when moving up in weight class.

No doubt that chimps are going to be enormously strong but the amount of skill that a UFC type could bring to bear would be decisive.

A friend once had an involuntary battle with a full grown, adult orangutan when he went into a Malaysian preserve earlier than the guide's scheduled arrival. Though the orangutan was tough, my buddy eventually got the best of it.

Per his retelling, the orangutan had him by all four limbs, at which time they took to wrestling. The orangutan constantly bared its teeth, but never brought them into the fray. Certainly, had the orangutan had more malice in him it could've been ugly, but even in a determined pitched battle, my untrained friend was able to beat it away. From what I gather orangutans are more formidable than chimps if considering mass. Temperment would be a bit of a wild card.

To Sklansky's point, when my friend recounted the story to the guides, they were skeptical that man could beat ape, especially when he pointed out the alleged offender (which they later spotted). So anecdotally, at least in a Malysian game preserve, it is commonly thought that the simian would have an insurmountable edge, though this test case showed otherwise.

For more amusing monkey stories, seek out Tom Wolfe's "The Right Stuff". Apparently the space program chimps were real bastards.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

Your friend got the orangutan to retreat. I doubt though that it would win a fight to the death.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

Meh, I know chimps are extremely strong given their size, but I think people underestimate how lethal some of these top UFC/Pride guys are. Top UFC/Pride fighters I *think take apart a chimp rather easily.

*I'm just guessing but IMO.

Not to sidetrack but new question: How much of a chance does the baddest UFC/Pride fighter out there (Liddell, CroCop, Fedor, etc.) stand against a full grown Gorilla (silverback?)? Opinions?

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

I actually think you people are underestimating exactly how strong those things are. They're very, very strong.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

chimps are stronger than humans, even UFC champions

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

People are underestimating the techniques used in ultimate fighting, particularly the submission holds.

If you've seen the original UFC's (1-4), nobody knew which martial arts actually worked and there were no weight classes or time limits. In these matches it became very evident how effective jujitsu is when a 170lb guy named Royce Gracie defeated opponents much larger and more athletic.

Nowadays, all the UFC fighters know what martial arts and techniques work and essentially use the same techniques (jujitsu/wrestling on ground and Mui-Thai kickboxing on feet). Therefore in the fights you see there's a lot of subtle defensive moves going on, and it's more striking lately (also due to the rules, judges decisions, and timelimits).

My points is that most people have no idea how effective jujitsu is on an untrained opponent. I have experience with this. A jujitsu expert could probably beat any untrained human on the planet in a life and death scenario.

The same submissions can be applied to a chimp, since their body is pretty similar to a human's.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

bubbles - yes
king kong - no

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

"Can a 90-lb. chimp clobber a full-grown man?"
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_001b.html

Money quote: "In tests at the Bronx Zoo in 1924, a dynamometer--a scale that measures the mechanical force of a pull on a spring--was erected in the monkey house. A 165-pound male chimpanzee named "Boma" registered a pull of 847 pounds, using only his right hand (although he did have his feet braced against the wall, being somewhat hip, in his simian way, to the principles of leverage). A 165-pound man, by comparison, could manage a one-handed pull of about 210 pounds. Even more frightening, a female chimp, weighing a mere 135 pounds and going by the name of Suzette, checked in with a one-handed pull of 1,260 pounds."

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

I already answered the question. Aside from a well placed eye gouge from the human, the chimp is the DEAD NUTS if he feels he is fighting to the death. Besides being strong enough to rip the guys head completely off, there is the fact that his REACH is twice that of the man and that he has hands that can GRIP on the ends of his LEGS.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

let's see a jujitsu master put a chokehold on a monkey that can pull 1000 pounds.

puhlease

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

I only meant to point out that the UFC figher's abilities are probably underestimated, just as others were pointing out that a chimp's strength is underestimated.

I do think if certain chokes were fully set, the chimp could not get out. But the human could probably not get in this scenario in the first place.

A choke or submission would be more likely to work than some sort of "fatal blow" as was originally suggested.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

I think one consideration is does the UFC Champion know about the fight beforehand and hence have time to prepare a specific strategy? For that matter why can't he simply cheat and bring a gun? Chimps can't do that.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

I think a human would win because they would be able to go in to the fight with a strategy that the chimp wouldnt really know how to counter.

I think that the human would be able to keep the chimp at bay with strikes and eventually wear it down or the human may be able to circle the chimp and perform some sort of rear choke hold that would be lethal to the chimp, though because of the chimps flexibility in its arms and legs they may be able to escape.

I dont think the human would want to get into any sort of grappling where the chimp could use its teeth. Besides the fact that the chimp would probably give the human fighter aids, their teeth are really sharp and could do some huge damage. Not to mention how strong they are. I think a lot of the jiu jitsu moves that are effective on humans would not work on a chimp because of their flexibility and strength. So I think that a humnans best chance would be to circle and keep the chimp away with strikes.

Id love to see this fight and im sure we could get it to go down in some countries.... maybe even the US. It was only a few years ago when fox did the reality TV show Man Vrs Beast.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

For the fight to meet the criteria, the human would have to threaten the chimps baby or something like that. Or be in an enclosed cage where running away was not an option.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I already answered the question. Aside from a well placed eye gouge from the human, the chimp is the DEAD NUTS if he feels he is fighting to the death. Besides being strong enough to rip the guys head completely off, there is the fact that his REACH is twice that of the man and that he has hands that can GRIP on the ends of his LEGS.

[/ QUOTE ]

A well placed eye gouge is one of the last things that is going to win the fight for the human (and is why a UFC fighter would not be going for it). What's it going to do?

In fighting there's often a large difference between pain and danger. If the chimp is worried about being killed, he's not going to care that his eye got gouged, the pain is not going to affect him, and it doesn't physically impede him in any significant way.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

chimp would destroy any champion on the ufc save for liddel would knock it out in a bevy of punches.

bring the chimp to pride and it is another story. fedor could defeat the worlds number one fighting chimp, then eat its brains.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

I just assumed the fight would be in the octagon. I think this still gives the human enough room to manuever. I think as the fighting area gets smaller the chimp gains more of an advantage.

Im starting to have some doubts about my pick of the human. I think it totally depends on whether or not the human can defend the chimps initial barrage by keeping his distance and strinking.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a human would win because they would be able to go in to the fight with a strategy that the chimp wouldnt really know how to counter.

I think that the human would be able to keep the chimp at bay with strikes and eventually wear it down or the human may be able to circle the chimp and perform some sort of rear choke hold that would be lethal to the chimp, though because of the chimps flexibility in its arms and legs they may be able to escape.

I dont think the human would want to get into any sort of grappling where the chimp could use its teeth. Besides the fact that the chimp would probably give the human fighter aids, their teeth are really sharp and could do some huge damage. Not to mention how strong they are. I think a lot of the jiu jitsu moves that are effective on humans would not work on a chimp because of their flexibility and strength. So I think that a humnans best chance would be to circle and keep the chimp away with strikes.

Id love to see this fight and im sure we could get it to go down in some countries.... maybe even the US. It was only a few years ago when fox did the reality TV show Man Vrs Beast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? Keeping the chimp at bay with strikes? Do you realize how hard it is to stop a fit person from an all out tackle on you? Now replace this fit person with something stronger and with more capable limbs...

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

If a human can win this, it's not going to be by striking. You don't keep a chimp at bay, he doesn't bob and weave -- he just jumps at you full speed. The only time a boxing match occurs is when both fighters want a boxing match.

The only chance is submission fighting, which is specifically designed for a weaker opponent to neutralize a larger one until they tire themselves out and are open to being choked or armbarred or whatever.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

I dont think the chimp would keep attacking if you landed a few good shots, though maybe im wrong. I just think there is a chance the chimp would kind of cower after being struck a few times and stop fighting until the human presented some sort of aggression towards it again.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think the chimp would keep attacking if you landed a few good shots, though maybe im wrong. I just think there is a chance the chimp would kind of cower after being struck a few times and stop fighting until the human presented some sort of aggression towards it again.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole thread is assuming the fight is to the death, and that the chimp is aware of this. A wild animal is going to fight with every bit of strength it has until it is dead.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

David,

"Assuming the chimpanzee knew it was in a fight from the git go"

I felt that part (ie: at what point does the chimp realize this) of the equation was an important element in the question and one of the reasons you thought this question worth addressing.

Since you specifically mentioned UFC, let's make this realistic w/ pics. The chimp is announced and walked to the ring by his trainer. The fighter comes down to the ring with his team.

They enter the octagon that looks like this and the door is shut:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...er/octagon.jpg

One of the UFC ring girls then shows us it is the first round, then the bell rings and fight commences.

http://www.knucklepit.com/_tamber%20miller21.jpghttp://www.ufcfightnews.com/ufc61/images/etc378.jpg

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

I think Fedor would be the ape.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

How about this, who would win in a fight? a 100 pound chimp or a professional fighter who has the advantage of watching 3 other fights the chimp has had against other fighters and devising a strategy specifically designed for killing chimps?

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Meh, I know chimps are extremely strong given their size, but I think people underestimate how lethal some of these top UFC/Pride guys are. Top UFC/Pride fighters I *think take apart a chimp rather easily.

*I'm just guessing but IMO.

Not to sidetrack but new question: How much of a chance does the baddest UFC/Pride fighter out there (Liddell, CroCop, Fedor, etc.) stand against a full grown Gorilla (silverback?)? Opinions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gorillas weigh between 300-600 pounds, and from what I can tell appear to have a high muscle to fat ratio. Even a muzzled gorilla could beat Fedor or any of these fighters in a fair fight.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I only meant to point out that the UFC figher's abilities are probably underestimated, just as others were pointing out that a chimp's strength is underestimated.

I do think if certain chokes were fully set, the chimp could not get out. But the human could probably not get in this scenario in the first place.

A choke or submission would be more likely to work than some sort of "fatal blow" as was originally suggested.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rather doubt that any chokehold would work since the chimp is likely strong enough to simply pry the human's grip loose. If a fighter with only the strength of an seven-year-old human got you in a similar chokehold couldn't you just pry his arms off you? The chimp is probably at least 4 times stronger than the UFC fighter for arm strength...oh yes, and the chimp can use the hands on his legs to pry the chokehold off too.

I think the only chance the UFC fighter would have would be to land an incapacitating or fatal blow, and it might have to be a lucky blow at that. Maybe a full force kick to the head as the chimp closes the distance would knock it out. But animals have a way of dodging slightly or slipping so that most such strikes would only be glancing blows.

A UFC fighter would probably also have to be lucky to land a solid incapacitating kick against a 100-lb dog if the dog knew it was a fight to the death. I would pick a chokehold against the dog and a severe blow against the chimp. In either case I like the animal's chances (provided the dog is not just some fat overgrown cocker spaniel type maybe. Great Dane, Rottweiler, maybe a Doberman or German Shepherd if they can get nearly that big, and I'll lay odds on the dog. Heck a 75. lb. Doberman would probably whup a UFC fighter in a death match).

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

Sorry to derail the thread, but, as a boxing fan and more recently a mixed martial arts fan, a question I have been pondering is whether an average boxer, say ranked 50 in the world, could beat the top MMA striker in a similar weight class if they had to play by boxing rules.

I know Fedor could beat any boxer if they played by MMA rules, but I think an average boxer could beat Fedor if they played by boxing rules.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to derail the thread, but, as a boxing fan and more recently a mixed martial arts fan, a question I have been pondering is whether an average boxer, say ranked 50 in the world, could beat the top MMA striker in a similar weight class if they had to play by boxing rules.

I know Fedor could beat any boxer if they played by MMA rules, but I think an average boxer could beat Fedor if they played by boxing rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

My money would be on Fedor if they were wearing 4 ounce gloves. Defence is totally different wigh 4 ounce gloves and the boxer wouldn't be acclimated to it and would end up getting knocked out because it.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to derail the thread, but, as a boxing fan and more recently a mixed martial arts fan, a question I have been pondering is whether an average boxer, say ranked 50 in the world, could beat the top MMA striker in a similar weight class if they had to play by boxing rules.

I know Fedor could beat any boxer if they played by MMA rules, but I think an average boxer could beat Fedor if they played by boxing rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

My money would be on Fedor if they were wearing 4 ounce gloves. Defence is totally different wigh 4 ounce gloves and the boxer wouldn't be acclimated to it and would end up getting knocked out because it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear what you're saying about the four ounce gloves, and hadn't really considered that angle of it. But imo there is so much "science" for lack of a better word in boxing, and that's all boxers do all day long, from my observations a decent boxer is much better at boxing than even the champion mma guys.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

There was a man vs. beast special on TV a few years ago.

One contest was a tug-of-war between a sumo wrestler and an orangutan. The sumo wrestler weighed nearly twice as much as the orangutan. The orangutan won.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
A choke or submission would be more likely to work than some sort of "fatal blow" as was originally suggested.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the only chance the UFC fighter would have would be to land an incapacitating or fatal blow

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt a choke would be possible. A biting, scratching, clawing monkey would be hard to choke for more than a few seconds. A "fatal blow " would almost be impossible even by a trained expert. It's much more difficult to KO an opponent than most people think, although MMA is showing to a wider audience now that the real fight starts after the close and finishes on the ground.

If stuck in a cage with a pissed monkey I think the best bet would be some type of joint manipulation (armbar) and not to submission but to break his arm ASAP.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

As an MMA fan of the last 8 years and a boxing fan for longer I would say that under MMA rules no pure boxer is going to touch Fedor, as he wouldnt even dream of standing toe to toe with them - look what happened with Fujita.

Under boxing rules any world class pro is going to smoke Fedor.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
As an MMA fan of the last 8 years and a boxing fan for longer I would say that under MMA rules no pure boxer is going to touch Fedor, as he wouldnt even dream of standing toe to toe with them - look what happened with Fujita.

Under boxing rules any world class pro is going to smoke Fedor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree and would say that any boxer ranked in the top 50 (or even top 100) in his weight class would beat Fedor under the rules of boxing.

Problems that I see with even the best strikers in MMA as far as boxing is concerned:

-Stances are often too open
-poor footwork
-poor/non-existant use of the jab
-punches are too wide
-not a lot of head movement
-most likely poor inside fighting skills as per the rules of boxing

Admittedly some of this has to do with the rules of mma, but imo even the best strikers are a long way off from being good boxers.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
A choke or submission

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely the best way to win. I made a chimpanzee tap once with a submission. Just don't let it pass your guard and get side control or else you'll be the one tapping out.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

Aren't there tons of martial arts and military training techniques that emphasize (or at least teach) lethal blows?

I think the human wins despite the chimp's superior strength.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

As the weight class goes up the Great apes have a bigger advantage. 20:1 on the chimp..
BTW have you ever seen a 250lb gorilla twist a car tire into a figure eight?!?
I think the human has to get first strike lucky.. and get a thumb in thru the eye of the monkey and into his brain (something like that) to win.

Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I already answered the question. Aside from a well placed eye gouge from the human, the chimp is the DEAD NUTS if he feels he is fighting to the death. Besides being strong enough to rip the guys head completely off, there is the fact that his REACH is twice that of the man and that he has hands that can GRIP on the ends of his LEGS.

[/ QUOTE ]

david.

if we could arrange this somehow(0 chance) i would bet(with odds of course, since you are so certain) on the other side. in fact, i would take 1:1

rj