Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

Hi everyone,

This hand happened in a 3/5 NL game with a $600 max buy in. The game is typically loose and weak, as you'd expect at these limits--probably something akin to .50-1 online, skill-wise, not that deep live games play the same as online games.

I had just moved to the table, and hadn't picked up any cards in the 15 or so hands I'd seen so far, and I'd been quiet. 8 handed, I picked up T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the SB. 5 limpers to me, I completed, and the BB checked. I started the hand with about $1200.

The flop was 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and I led out for $20. Folded to a MP limper, who called; he was a ridiculous donk who I'd seen limp pf with Q3o, then call a $30 raise back to him. Post-flop, he was loose, fairly passive, and clueless. He had about $700. I put him on any pair or any draw, including 2 overcards Like AQ or KQ.

Some other guys folded, and then the main Villain in this hand called as well. He was a super-loose, pretty aggressive, table captain-type. He was also strikingly handsome; not sure if that has any bearing on the action, though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] He had over $3K. His range was pretty much any 2 cards with some relation to this flop. Everyone else folded.

The turn was the J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], giving me a straight and putting two flush draws on board. I led out for $45, the donk called, which I didn't think he'd do with a straight, and then Villain made it $350.

How do you proceed here? Is this an easy laydown, because he's got a T at least, here, and my implied odds are terrible? It seems weak to just fold a straight to a guy who plays every hand. Then there's the donk to think about; I felt that after calling my 2nd bet, his most likely hand was a flush draw, but he could still have something like KQ or J5, believe it or not. Anyway, what's your plan here?

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

I would just fold, I would probably play q9 like this in a live 2-5 game because nobody folds a straight in live poker.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

So he has at least a ten, whats your point? easiest shove ever.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

So you're sure the handsome guy had at least a 9? I'd probably call, there's a decent chance the main donk will overcall and provide you a ton of equity. I also think that maximizing the chance at an overcall is more important than protecting against draws, especially because it sounds like FDs won't make up that much of this donk's range, that range being so wide.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

tl;dr yet, but i didn't know we'd ever play live before?

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

sweet suicide, cero :-)

i don't mind a fold here. reverse implied odds are badddd on a call, and you can probably find a better spot soon where you're sure you're way ahead.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

I muck the straight. btw sometimes its hard being a very good looking man in poker.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

I think this is a clear fold unless he is an absolute donk. The board is double suited and we have neither suit in our hand, so the chances he has the straight with a flush redraw is pretty decent. Not to mention that something like Q9 is definitely in his range and would be a standard flop call with a straight draw to the nuts and likely stacking a lower straight. His enourmous raise makes me think that he is specifically looking to get all in against a 9 here which he doesn't think will fold. It would be a really ballsy move with anything but a straight here, because he really shouldn't expect anybody to lay down a straight here regardless if you will or not. I'm not entirely sure of the equity you have for a split pot, but I would venture to say that it's not worth it to risk your entire stack on chopping a pretty small pot when you could very reasonably be drawing dead to a chop (3 outs) or be up against the same hand with a flush redraw which has 9 outs against you (up to 12 if he has something like K9).

I guess that might make you exploitable theoretically that he can make this move with the same hand as you and steal the pot, but that's pretty silly to even consider in a donkish live game. This is a fold, IMO.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

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So he has at least a ten, whats your point? easiest shove ever.

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you're kidding right?

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

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So he has at least a ten, whats your point? easiest shove ever.

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you're kidding right?

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folding this hand is suicide

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

did you get a picture of the dude? that's pretty important for this hand, imo.

As played fold. I might shove in the heat of the moment but fold is best.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

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I think this is a clear fold unless he is an absolute donk. The board is double suited and we have neither suit in our hand, so the chances he has the straight with a flush redraw is pretty decent. Not to mention that something like Q9 is definitely in his range and would be a standard flop call with a straight draw to the nuts and likely stacking a lower straight. His enourmous raise makes me think that he is specifically looking to get all in against a 9 here which he doesn't think will fold. It would be a really ballsy move with anything but a straight here, because he really shouldn't expect anybody to lay down a straight here regardless if you will or not. I'm not entirely sure of the equity you have for a split pot, but I would venture to say that it's not worth it to risk your entire stack on chopping a pretty small pot when you could very reasonably be drawing dead to a chop (3 outs) or be up against the same hand with a flush redraw which has 9 outs against you (up to 12 if he has something like K9).

I guess that might make you exploitable theoretically that he can make this move with the same hand as you and steal the pot, but that's pretty silly to even consider in a donkish live game. This is a fold, IMO.

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i like and agree with this analysis.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

This is a pretty big overbet, and the pot is protected, since the donk is in the hand with you.

I've seen crazier bluffs, on occasion, but not often. You guys still have a lot behind, and you could easily be being freerolled, or drawing dead to a split vs the nuts.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

OK, so here are some things.

As anyone who's met me in person would've known instantly, I was the Villain in this hand. A few of you got that.

Furthermore, I had the nuts; many of you got that. Sadly, 350 was not the raise I actually made. It was the raise I should've made, rather than the raise I did make. What raise did I make, you ask? Just a $1000 raise or so--brilliant. My thinking was, one of these guys has a straight, and it's live poker, so they're too dumb to fold it. Therefore, I'll put them all-in. So anyway, I shoved, and the bettor hemmed and hawed, before folding what was clearly a straight (I'm guessing his hand was T9, since he wasn't brave, and he bet the flop. The donk actually folded a straight-flush draw (64 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]), which mildly surprised me.

I'd seen the donk call a raise from a tight player on a QQT flop, then call 500 into a 150 pot all-in when a 9 hit the turn. His hand: AKo. This influenced me somewhat, and I just shoved, thinking, "He likes his hand enough to call 45, and the other guy just got here but seems pretty dumb as well. Maybe one of them will call." What makes this move so bad is that even if they are dumb enough to call an all-in with the 2nd nuts there, I can get them all-in by making a smaller raise on the turn, and betting the rest on the river (if I even have to). From the way the bettor agonized over folding to the all-in (~1100 to him), I can see that a raise to 350, while oversized, would've been irresistable.

I was hoping this thread would make me feel better, and all of you would go, "Fold obv," but there was enough disagreement that I can see this line would've worked; this bettor was much, much worse than the average MSNL poster.

So, in conclusion, I'm dumb, but at least I'm beautiful. A pic of me is at right. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

cero, id check the flop

I dont lay down here at all... you really think its Q9? or 9x w/ flush draw?

I would move my chips in the middle

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

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[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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Lookin' sharp.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so here are some things.

As anyone who's met me in person would've known instantly, I was the Villain in this hand. A few of you got that.

Furthermore, I had the nuts; many of you got that. Sadly, 350 was not the raise I actually made. It was the raise I should've made, rather than the raise I did make. What raise did I make, you ask? Just a $1000 raise or so--brilliant. My thinking was, one of these guys has a straight, and it's live poker, so they're too dumb to fold it. Therefore, I'll put them all-in. So anyway, I shoved, and the bettor hemmed and hawed, before folding what was clearly a straight (I'm guessing his hand was T9, since he wasn't brave, and he bet the flop. The donk actually folded a straight-flush draw (64 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]), which mildly surprised me.

I'd seen the donk call a raise from a tight player on a QQT flop, then call 500 into a 150 pot all-in when a 9 hit the turn. His hand: AKo. This influenced me somewhat, and I just shoved, thinking, "He likes his hand enough to call 45, and the other guy just got here but seems pretty dumb as well. Maybe one of them will call." What makes this move so bad is that even if they are dumb enough to call an all-in with the 2nd nuts there, I can get them all-in by making a smaller raise on the turn, and betting the rest on the river (if I even have to). From the way the bettor agonized over folding to the all-in (~1100 to him), I can see that a raise to 350, while oversized, would've been irresistable.

I was hoping this thread would make me feel better, and all of you would go, "Fold obv," but there was enough disagreement that I can see this line would've worked; this bettor was much, much worse than the average MSNL poster.

So, in conclusion, I'm dumb, but at least I'm beautiful. A pic of me is at right. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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I don't think what you did was terrible, I've probably only got 30-40 hours of live experience but the play is so terrible that I'm sure you get instacall by a lot of players regardless of how deep you were. But the best way to maximize your winnings in this hand is a raise to 200-300 and then shoving any river (stack sizes will certainly mean they will be committed by calling that size raise).

Interesting hand though, Bobby I think you're very wrong here, and not to be results oriented but against any player with a clue you're usually being freerolled here or up against the nut straight.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

Cero,

Did you get the guys number?

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

Hi A,
[ QUOTE ]
Cero,

Did you get the guys number?

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Not only did I get his number, I called him today (my friends said to wait 2 days). Turns out he's not just gorgeous; he's brilliant and hilarious, too! I feel like I've known him for 30 years...exactly 30 years.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

I'm still trying to figure out how the hero bought in for $600, didn't play a hand for 15 hands, then completed in the SB with T9 and $1200 behind.

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So he has at least a ten, whats your point? easiest shove ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're kidding right?

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folding this hand is suicide

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Sigh, another case in which I cant tell if the poster is joking or is clueless when he says "folding this hand is suicide."

I can't tell if this is 2nd level humor or if he's clueless himself. What are some good indicators? I guess one can tell by the amount of posts he's made in the past. I feel that may indicate whehter or not he is an experienced poster/player. However, this small number may belie the poster's actual ability.

Anyway... what do you mean by suicide? If by suicide you mean a 70 dollar suicide, then yes, its a suicide.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

Wow - thanks for posting this. Was playing live this past weekend and noticed myself that I was losing some bigger pots in these types of situations.

My first response was call turn and see what happens, but then I decided to think about it some more. The truth is that ignoring implied odds, the equity just isn't good in this situation even if the donk calls a high % of the time.

Assumed bluff/NFD (no 9) - 10%, Q9 - 30%, 9 with FD - 40%, naked 9 (20%) and came out with neg. equity even with donk calling 80%.

Big help. Thanks.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

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Interesting hand though, Bobby I think you're very wrong here, and not to be results oriented but against any player with a clue you're usually being freerolled here or up against the nut straight.

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ive been wrong alot, so me being wrong here wouldnt be the first

but really just type out some math.. find out how often he NEEDS the nuts or freeroll ot make folding this correct, and I imagine the results will surprise you.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

Hi Dominic,
[ QUOTE ]
I'm still trying to figure out how the hero bought in for $600, didn't play a hand for 15 hands, then completed in the SB with T9 and $1200 behind.

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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I had just moved to the table,

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Location: Vegas, and ~8900 posts, but still never come across multiple tables, huh?

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

pull a brunson.

call the turn and pot it on a flush/paired river.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Dominic,
[ QUOTE ]
I'm still trying to figure out how the hero bought in for $600, didn't play a hand for 15 hands, then completed in the SB with T9 and $1200 behind.

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
I had just moved to the table,

[/ QUOTE ]

Location: Vegas, and ~8900 posts, but still never come across multiple tables, huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't know you could buy-in for more than max, eve if you're multi-tabling.

Plus, now you've got me really confused: I thought you said you were NOT the hero in this story, but the villain???

Wasn't doubting your story, just thought it was funny.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

He was 'villain'. 'Hero' had been playing at a different table with a 1200 stack and had recently moved (with his full stack) to this table. This should not be THAT hard to understand...

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

[ QUOTE ]
He was 'villain'. 'Hero' had been playing at a different table with a 1200 stack and had recently moved (with his full stack) to this table. This should not be THAT hard to understand...

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Like I said, I had no idea you could move from one table to another (online) with your full stack when there is a max buy-in. THAT'S what I don't understand.

Re: Deep Live Hand Vs. Very Good-looking Man
 

It was live.