preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

So I'm on the worst run of my life and I just want to make sure I am doing these little things right that are now standard for me.

5 handed stars 25/50 ( the last 25/50 session i played, and the last one i will play for 2 months!).

The game has teacup, h@ll who seems to be playing awful lately, a buddylist player, and an unknown. The unknown is the villain in this hand. This is like 20 hands in, and not much has happened yet. This guy seems pretty TAG and has cbet a few times but nothing out of the ordinary, so basically no read. I have raised all buttons i have had so far, and prob all opens from the CO.

I open to 200 w/ AKo on the button (I have 6200, villain covers), villain raises to 650 in the sb, bb( h@ll) folds. I raise to 2000 w/ the intention of calling a shove... boring/ standard right?

How often are you calling here? Since folding is clearly not an option, do you prefer raising or calling here? I think there is a lot of merit to both, but given how light ppl are 3 betting pf these days I have been 4 betting light as well and it seems to be a good strat. Anyways, just let me kno if I'm way off or way standard or w/e.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

the problem with 4betting in position when you open on button is that you are likely giving away your hand in the process - this is often an AQ/AK kind of hand. do you ever 4b QQ+ here? i would doubt it because it doesnt make all that much sense and it is certainly not the most optimal line.

so, if for nothing else, i call AK here pre to balance and plan on messing with him on a few flops that i miss as well as playing for value.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

I 4bet AK all day here but make sure to do the same with QQ+ enough that JJ and TT have a tough decision

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

100% standard

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

jfish,
your thought process is valid but not 4 betting in 10/20+ games these days is kind of crazy since there is so much preflop aggression; as such, yea, most people who play this high are DEFINITELY 4 betting with KK / AA fairly often. They're also 4 betting as a bluff rarely etc. Though it might not be the most effective way to play KK / AA in a vaccuum it is necessary since never 4 betting would suck vs most opponents.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

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100% standard

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Probably a basic question I should know the answer to, but why is raising to 2K w/ intention to call a shove better than shoving? Are you expecting AQ and less to shove, or are you hoping to get some calls from those hands? My standard is to shove, to occasionally fold the TT or AK that doesn't like calling 6000 more hoping to flip a coin.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

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[ QUOTE ]
100% standard

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Probably a basic question I should know the answer to, but why is raising to 2K w/ intention to call a shove better than shoving? Are you expecting AQ and less to shove, or are you hoping to get some calls from those hands? My standard is to shove, to occasionally fold the TT or AK that doesn't like calling 6000 more hoping to flip a coin.

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I do it because if somebody's 3-betting me light I like to 4-bet light. But since a push and a pot comitting 4-bet are often interpreted the same way, when I'm 4-betting light I like to risk the minimum instead of pushing as I think it's just as effective. But obviously if I do that, I have to play AK/AA the same way.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
100% standard

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Probably a basic question I should know the answer to, but why is raising to 2K w/ intention to call a shove better than shoving? Are you expecting AQ and less to shove, or are you hoping to get some calls from those hands? My standard is to shove, to occasionally fold the TT or AK that doesn't like calling 6000 more hoping to flip a coin.

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what do you 4bet to when youre 150bb deep? 200bb deep? shoving in both situations is kinda gross with a hand like AK. do you just make a standard 4b there?

magicninja,

i understand what you're saying, but i tend to not 4b much when i have position. id like 4betting more if say i opened CO and button raised when i had AK/AQ, QQ+/whatever. its probably just a difference in playing style, though its possible im playing suboptimally.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

I used to never 4 bet in position. If you play higher it seems like you are getting 3 bet so light that you have to.

Also 2k is significantly better number because we won't always have AK here; i think its basically same thing in a vacuum obviously.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

cero_z,

I think 2k is superior to to shoving, because it at least gives the impression of folding equity. I'm not saying that it WILL make a difference, if he has say.... AQ, but w/ this we at least give him a chance to shove whereas if we just shove I think he basically never calls a shove. Overall I am either folding, calling, or raising to 2k with any of my hands here, and basically never shoving.

If anyone has anything to say, especially regarding that last sentence, I think it'd be a good discussion.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

100% standard. also, to the other guy, yes we are 4 betting QQ/KK/AA too.

to cero, i think shoving will not make any additional hands fold but making it 2k might induce a bluff-shove once in a while. i'm sure all of us have been guilty of 5-betting trash before.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

ansky, as a starter to this discussion, it's clearly no different making it 2k compared to shoving if the oop player never calls (which is a pretty normal assumption); or basically plays well (EG knows that when you make it 2k its with the intention of calling a shove); At 100 bb, I think calling in this spot is pretty awful for the oop player (unless we just think its a better way to get all the money in, vs certain types of bad players). If you think OOP player will call your reraises sometimes and is an aggro reraiser to start with, then we should be shoving a wide range in this spot when we have 100 bb (like AXs sometimes etc) since these hands are hard to play post flop oop but have equity vs the raiser. In reality though, this situation doesn't exist in my experience; the preflop aggressor would have to be as aggro as a player like CTS, yet call reraises...

I guess once stacks get deeper then OOP will start calling when we 3 bet and so we might want to shove hands that are hardish to play post flop but easy have enough equity to play for stacks (EG AK)... but then with deepened stacks, shoving starts to become a pretty big overbet so meh.

I'd like to hear what you think our calling range to a 4 bet is oop if we have deep stacks oop vs an aggro player; EG we have AK button raises 200 we make it 650 he makes it 2000 we have 10k stacks. calls? push? fold? how about AQs? TT?

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

[ QUOTE ]

I do it because if somebody's 3-betting me light I like to 4-bet light. But since a push and a pot comitting 4-bet are often interpreted the same way, when I'm 4-betting light I like to risk the minimum instead of pushing as I think it's just as effective. But obviously if I do that, I have to play AK/AA the same way.

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for 5k stacks, making it 2k and then folding with small unpaired cards is a mistake if he ever 5bets with unpaired hands other than ak. for 6k stacks its still a very thin fold (especially if you're saying part of the justification for 4betting small and calling with ak is that you might get him to shove a worse hand).

i shove here because i prefer to shove rather than 4bet and fold with my light 4bets. make the stacks 150BB or more and i think 4betting with room to fold becomes a better play.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I do it because if somebody's 3-betting me light I like to 4-bet light. But since a push and a pot comitting 4-bet are often interpreted the same way, when I'm 4-betting light I like to risk the minimum instead of pushing as I think it's just as effective. But obviously if I do that, I have to play AK/AA the same way.

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for 5k stacks, making it 2k and then folding with small unpaired cards is a mistake if he ever 5bets with unpaired hands other than ak

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I've been 5-bet a lot. I've called the 5-bets a lot and thus seen what people 5-bet with. It's not often 9Ts. The range of hands that 5-bet is not one that makes it profitable to call with unpaired small cards.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

For 5k stacks you're getting 7 : 3 on the call. The math obviously depends on exactly which small unpaired cards you have. Lets take 74s as an example. You have about 40% equity vs ak (and other big aces) and about 20% equity vs AA (and other big pairs). So if he's 5betting a range like jj+ aq+, you're 20% against 24 combinations and 40% against 32 combinations for a total of greater than 30% equity. Folding is a mistake against this range. (i don't have pokerstove on this computer so i'm making estimates based on some twodimes calculations, if someone wants to run this in pokerstove and get the exact numbers, that'd be appreciated).

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

383,556,096 games 0.672 secs 570,768,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 30.1150 % 29.89% 00.23% { 74s }
Hand 2: 69.8850 % 69.66% 00.23% { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

thanks

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

You don't have to 4-bet to 2k ike

Ansky,

I think if you 4 bet to something like 1650 that his hand range for continuing will be more optimal for you

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

[ QUOTE ]

You don't have to 4-bet to 2k ike

Ansky,

I think if you 4 bet to something like 1650 that his hand range for continuing will be more optimal for you

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding 74s is still really marginal getting 2 : 1 instead of 7 : 3. I'd much rather shove and increase my fold equity instead of setting myself up to be able to make a really thin fold.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

74s is a "really thin fold" if you 4 bet it to $1650 and the guy shoves for $5k?

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

[ QUOTE ]
74s is a "really thin fold" if you 4 bet it to $1650 and the guy shoves for $5k?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 30% equity against the range of jj+ aq+ and need 33% to call. Its a clear fold, but that doesn't mean its not close. The EV of putting in 1650 and folding is only slightly better than the EV of putting in all 5k and having a chance to suck out against reasonable ranges. So if shoving gives you much more fold equity at all its worth it.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

Your range, not mine.

Against 99+, AK you have less than 25% equity

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

Running badly, I don't mind pushing here, but often end up seeing KQ suited beat me in a big pot. I feel you pain. Just calling here leaves you in a tough spot if you miss the flop and while running badly this may be tough emotionally. I you are up you may not mind calling preflop and checking folding, but I can see why you might want to push running badly. Is this right here????

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

[ QUOTE ]
Running badly, I don't mind pushing here, but often end up seeing KQ suited beat me in a big pot. I feel you pain. Just calling here leaves you in a tough spot if you miss the flop and while running badly this may be tough emotionally. I you are up you may not mind calling preflop and checking folding, but I can see why you might want to push running badly. Is this right here????

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL WTF?

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

i've run like S*** too lately, but you rele shouldn't play if ur afraid of still running bad b/c that will lead to further poor play; personally i like the reraise size and if he shoves ur commmited to call but played fine

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your range, not mine.

Against 99+, AK you have less than 25% equity

[/ QUOTE ]

I like how you just made a particularly good range to beat the hand he suggested; it'd be a pretty interesting player who pushes 99 but not AQ for example (and i'm going to go right out and say that if the person is 3 betting you light enough to warrant pushing 99, not pushing AQ is retarded.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

In my experience people will much more readily 5-bet shove 99 than they will AQ

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience people will much more readily 5-bet shove 99 than they will AQ

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maybe i dont 4 bet enough.. but i dont exactly see 99 very often when ppl 5 bet shove.. holla

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

This one time I was on megatilt for the first time ever basically... I was bb w/ Q8s OMGClayAiken raised to 105 on the button, I made it 330 in the bb, he made it 1000, I shove for 4500. He snap calls w/ AKo.

DATS NO LIMIT BABY

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

200bb he called?

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

nah it was 15/30 nl on ftp

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

What's the standard play when he flat calls 2000 and pushes the flop and we miss? Easy call?

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

ehhhhhhhh?

i dont expect anyone to ever call the 2k there .

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

stop-and-go. lol donkaments.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

call shove over c-bet or 4-bet to 1.7k

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

Ansky, im curios to hear the reasoning behind the 4bet sizing in this hand. Ive watched a little bit of CTS and he tends to 4bet alot smaller, hoping to induce a wider 5-bet shove range maybe?. Is 2000 better than 1600 in this spot and if so why?

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

I play it the same FWIW. Id say I reraise/call with roughly a 70/30 mixture, and I lean towards reraising more often against unknowns. When I 3 bet I probably make it a tad less to balance bluffs and not put myself in bad spots having to call pushes with 56s (as ike basically went over).

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

this has been bumped...

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

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this has been bumped...

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qft!

...

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

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cero_z,

I think 2k is superior to to shoving, because it at least gives the impression of folding equity. I'm not saying that it WILL make a difference, if he has say.... AQ, but w/ this we at least give him a chance to shove whereas if we just shove I think he basically never calls a shove. Overall I am either folding, calling, or raising to 2k with any of my hands here, and basically never shoving.

If anyone has anything to say, especially regarding that last sentence, I think it'd be a good discussion.

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the general concensus is raising to 2k is better since we allow worse hands to shove given the impression of FE.. (i.e. AQ)
in a vacuum, which is what this hand is seeing no past history, woulndt shoving with AK be more superior as we can possibly fold pp hands such as 99 TT (since with on FE we are liekly to have a stronger hand)?

i think it goes both ways that the impression of FE can be good or bad.. depending if he shoves 77 against us (obv not what we want)

the exception woudl b if we 4-bet bluff enough that he might shove wiht AJ AQ.. which would not noramlly be the case against an unknown.