**uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

NL is a complex game. We all know this. Sure, you get 2 cards, but the game is far more than just the 2 in your hand and the 5 on the board. For the next few weeks, uNL is going to have a concept of the week thread discussing a certain concept or theory in NL Hold'em.

In this thread you should post HH's showing situations where the concept was applied effectively as well as examples of poor usage of the concept. Also, please debate over various aspects of the concept and it's pro's and con's.
__________________________________________________ _________________
Reverse Implied Odds is one of the most misunderstood yet important concepts in unlimted betting hold them (if you dont get that reference read more BBV). But, what exactly are Reverse Implied Odds

What are Reverse Implied Odds (RIO)?

From Theory of Poker, Pg 59, by David Sklansky

[ QUOTE ]
There are other times you must realize that your odds are not as good as they seem. These situations occur wen you have a medicore hand with little chance of improving, which you think is the best hand at the moment, yet your opponent keeps betting. ...Since he is controlling the betting, he will back off on late rounds if he doesnt have you beat. Thus you are in a position to win the minimum if you have the best hand, and lose the maximum if you have the worst hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

When do RIO exist?
In summary, you are in a RIO situation when you stand to make a little and lose a lot. You arent sure where you exist in the hand, Little chance of improvment, a call may commit you to the hand, and your opponent controls the flow of the hand.

How to recognize than avoid RIO situations
Sometimes, it is hard to avoid and recognize RIO situations immediately. They often stem from a call on an earlier street, usually with a dominated hand. If you see that you will normally be calling rather than betting, that is a good indication you are in a RIO situation. When making decisions on earlier streets, you need to think about whether or not you will be in a RIO situation.

__________________________________________________ ___________
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $.25/$.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $45.55
UTG+1: $20.87
Hero: $65.50
Button: $15.50
SB: $47.75
BB: $35.85

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG raises to $2.5, 1 folds, Hero calls $2.5 , 3 folds.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($5.50, 2 players)
UTG Bets $4, Hero calls $4.

Here we have the beginnings of a RIO situation. Hero's hand strength is relativily unknown. He called a bet in position with a dominated hand, and saw a flop, and hit. Villain bets and hero just calls.

Turn: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG bets $10, Hero ?

Here is where the real RIO comes in. At this point Hero still has no idea of his relative hand strength, his opponent can still back off on the river if beat, he has little chance of improving and if he does still may be beat, and a call here commits you to the river



Another Example:

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG Calls, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.5 , 2 folds, BB Raises to 8, 1 fold, Hero calls.

It starts.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB bets 15, Hero ?

RIO right here too.

Another good example:
200nl RIO situation

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

Great topic, EMc. Hopefully this will engage a good discussion because I would like to learn more about RIO situations. Especially learning to recognize them before it's too late, and you're already committed.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

Thanks E, this is one of my favorites.

Just to make it incredibly painful:

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG Calls, MP calls, Button raises to $3.0, SB calls $2.75, Hero calls $2.5, 1 fold, MP calls.

(~$12) Flop (4 players): 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB bets 15, Hero ?

Decent chance you're best here on the flop, and you have position on the flop bettor. But if anyone stays for SB's bet, there is a stupendous chance that you will be outdrawn by the river. You're going to win small here or lose big. RIO.

One of the most valuable concepts I ever learned.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($39.10)
BB ($1.20)
UTG ($40.10)
Button ($20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $1</font>, Hero calls $0.90, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($2.25) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $2.25</font>, Hero calls $2.25.

Turn: ($6.75) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $6.25</font>, Hero folds.

[b]If I call here I will probably face a river bet too and I only beat A9, A8.

Final Pot: $13

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. Button wins $13. </font>

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

AJ and JJ are the hands that tend to do this more then any others that i've seen.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

Is this where the AJo go all in joke stems from?

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

Well I sure wish I read this thread a couple of hours ago.

Here's a pretty good example of what happens when you ignore the implications of reverse implied odds. Sorry about the non-supported hand history, I'll try to clean it up.

Villain is the first halfway decent player that I've seen at these stakes. His preflop aggression is way lower than what it should be for 5-max (which factors into his hand ranges), but he's fairly sound postflop and has taken some donks to valuetown. The rest are fairly standard $10NL donks.

$10 NL (5 Players)

Villain is UTG ($17.40)
CO ($15.93)
Button ($4.11)
SB ($3.75)
Hero is BB ($18.90)


Preflop Hero is BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Villain calls ($0.10), CO calls ($0.10), Button calls ($0.10), SB folds, <font color="red"> Hero raises to $0.70 </font> , Villain calls, 2 folds.

Flop ($1.65) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (2 Players) </font>
<font color="red"> Hero Bets ($1.60) </font> , Villain calls.

Turn ($4.61) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (2 Players) </font>
<font color="red"> Hero Checks</font>, Villain bets ($4.10), <font color="red"> Hero Folds</font>


I think that I ignored RIO at two points in this hand, preflop and the flop.

My rationale behind the large raise preflop was to take down the limpers, which I had done a couple times successfully this session already. However, I was in position with those hands, and AQo is a hand that plays really poorly OOP because of reverse implied odds. Lets see why!

I get called in one spot and I hit TPTK on a very suspect flop. This is a classic RIO spot, I think, and the cbet was a bad idea. If villain had 66-88 or AK or something else that missed, he folds and I scoop a small pot. If he re-raises me, I have to fold, and if he calls it's even worse as there are approximately infinity cards that kill my hand on the turn. In hindsight, I probably wasn't even ahead of villains range with TPTK here, and if so it wasn't by much. Win a little, lose a lot.

So villain calls and the turn comes a king. I'm now behind everything but low pocket pairs, very unlikely given the action and the fact that UTG isn't an idiot. There is really nothing here that I can do but check and fold.

Another thing to note was that RIO hurt even more when you're somewhat deepstacked like I was here, 180bb deep.

So nice post EC, it was just a little too late.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with J J
UTG Calls, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.5 , 2 folds, BB Raises to 8, 1 fold, Hero calls.

It starts.

Flop: 7 6 8
BB bets 15, Hero ?




[/ QUOTE ]

Great topic, I definately need to improve on being able to recognize these situations before getting too deeply involved.

In the hand above, which happens alot, what is the best way to proceed?
Certainly it is player dependent, but say vs a typical NL 50 opponent.

What about reraising preflop?

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

Look at the discussion of this hand:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...e=0#Post8130831

Hero is in a RIO situation.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

Okay, so now that we all know what RIO is, what do you do to avoid losing more than winning?
You can't expect people to c/f JJ on a 678r flop? Right?
I admit that I hate those situations and feel lost just about every time this happens. Any suggestions?

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so now that we all know what RIO is, what do you do to avoid losing more than winning?
You can't expect people to c/f JJ on a 678r flop? Right?
I admit that I hate those situations and feel lost just about every time this happens. Any suggestions?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I'm at. You can't fold an overpair everytime the board pairs or is draw heavy and villian bets into you. For example, I'm betting into your JJ with TT in the above hand, yet JJ is a solid favorite.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

I know You don't aggree, but once again, in this certain situation I stick to the suggestion of an internet pro, who bets 1/4 to 1/3 of the pot on a scary flop.

You don't want to loose much in the RIO situation and I think this kind of bet is the best You can do. If Your opponent is sitting on a draw, he has the pot odds to call or he might reraise. But I don't see a better try for me. If he isn't on a draw, it's not that easy to deal for him with that kind of a bet. Because he can't be sure whether we are on a draw or whether we hit the straight, reraising in this situation isn't that easy for him.
Betting 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot doesn't commit much money if I get reraised - in which case I fold - but sometimes may lead to a cheap showdown, if he calls.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know You don't aggree, but once again, in this certain situation I stick to the suggestion of an internet pro, who bets 1/4 to 1/3 of the pot on a scary flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is ridiculously exploitable. Here's why:
[ QUOTE ]
Betting 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot doesn't commit much money if I get reraised - in which case I fold

[/ QUOTE ]
You need to make meaningful bets or good opponents will catch on and rip you apart. Maybe not at µ-stakes but certainly as you move higher up.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

I don't think so. This advice comes from an internet pro, who has lots of success. No one rips him apart. By the way, it's easy to criticize someones suggestions without referring to Kazanas question! You leave her question unanswered!

We are in a RIO situation. Pumping up the pot seems to be a mistake, checking and doing nothing seems bad, too, as Kazana stated in her post. So I think the only option You have is bet a little.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. This advice comes from an internet pro, who has lots of success. No one rips him apart. By the way, it's easy to criticize someones suggestions without referring to Kazanas question! You leave her question unanswered!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have any suggestions. I suck at detecting ROI situations. But I'd like to comment on this.

An internet pro (hopefully) knows what he's doing. He has prob awesome reading skills and his postflopplay is much much better than the average SSNL-2+2er. You can't just implement such advice from a pro. I am sure he mixes it up: sometimes he does this when he as a monsters, sometimes in a ROI situation, sometimes as a bluff. If you bet 1/3-1/4 pot and than ALWAYS fold to a reraise on the flop, that's bad and highly exploitable.

I think you have to check these flops a majority of the time and fold to a bet. If you also check flops you do hit, you are less readable.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so now that we all know what RIO is, what do you do to avoid losing more than winning?
You can't expect people to c/f JJ on a 678r flop? Right?
I admit that I hate those situations and feel lost just about every time this happens. Any suggestions?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I'm at. You can't fold an overpair everytime the board pairs or is draw heavy and villian bets into you. For example, I'm betting into your JJ with TT in the above hand, yet JJ is a solid favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. -these are tricky marginal situations for sure -as long as we keep them marginal and don't put too much monies in then they shouldn't affect our winrate much.

I think this comes down to knowing your villan and handreading erring on the side of folding vs. unknowns/when unsure.
As long as we don't put too much money in the pot then we should be able to charge drawers /weaker hands and only lose some when we're behind.

The JJ hand I cbet OOP then shutdown, in positon I'll check not worring about a free card or bet the turn if I suspect villan is drawing. I did this yesterday -river completed a str8 villan bet the river and I folded knowing I he likely hit as he check-called on teh flop &amp;turn.

I didn't payoff his river bet and he flashed the str8.

If bet into on drawy board by bluffers/drawers I often raise IP if they reraise I obv fold but if they call they are often drawing/weak overpair esp. if they lead turn weak. I often call the turn weak lead and let them bluff a blank river. Note this applies HU -multiway I'm likely folding.

Just some rambling thoughts. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Anyone else got advice/thoughts on these tricky situations?

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

Did I ever mention that You ALWAYS should fold in that situation? This was never part of my post!

The question kazana asked here was what's the standard line of proceeding in this situation. If someone starts to exploit Your standard line, whatever it is, You have to adjust, but that's not part of this topic.

And, I wouldn't make suggestions without making my own - good - experiences with them at these stakes. I feel very, very comfortable in betting a little in these situations. Let someone like You start to play back at me. That's fine, that happens a lot and it's a great situation to set up a trap in the medium/long run!

This is one of my major sources of revenue. Someone like You sitting at the table, watching my occassional undersized bets, thinking I'm weak tight and thinking it will be easy to run over the top of me, because I will fold to the reraise ALWAYS.

Can it get any better for me? I guess, no!

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know You don't aggree, but once again, in this certain situation I stick to the suggestion of an internet pro, who bets 1/4 to 1/3 of the pot on a scary flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is ridiculously exploitable. Here's why:
[ QUOTE ]
Betting 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot doesn't commit much money if I get reraised - in which case I fold

[/ QUOTE ]
You need to make meaningful bets or good opponents will catch on and rip you apart. Maybe not at µ-stakes but certainly as you move higher up.

[/ QUOTE ]
i play microstakes and if someone bet 1/4 pot into me I would probably raise any overpair

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

This is a great thread. Thanks! I now realize that I see these situations all the time and just didn't quite know what to call them.

Now that several people have asked the question "so what do we do about RIO?", maybe we can investigate what EMc originally asked for:

[ QUOTE ]
situations where the concept was applied effectively as well as examples of poor usage of the concept

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm beginning to see examples of RIO as they develop, but i'm not sure how we can apply RIO effectively/poorly other than a simple understanding of lose big / win little.

Additionally, how far does the concept of 'Make you opponent make a mistake' go here.....i.e. on the JJ overpair example if we make bets that DON'T give villian odds to draw to the flush (even though we suspect he'll call anyway) are we doing enough?

thoughts?

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

When does it switch from being Reverse Implied Odds to implied odds?

How would I play this hand differently with QQ, JJ, TT, 99?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (3 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($5)
Hero ($41.60)
SB ($26.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $1.65</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, SB calls $3.25.

Flop: ($10.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB calls $26.70 (All-In), Hero calls $21.80.

Turn: ($58.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($58.75) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $58.75

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

Villain has is new to the table.

Does this hand fit the RIO concept, or is this a weak fold?


Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $55.55
CO: $21.75
Button: $22.60
Hero: $24.35
BB: $27.75

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, CO calls, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, BB calls, 2 folds.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($3.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $2</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($7.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises all-in $24.25</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $19.25 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: $17.5

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

[ QUOTE ]
When does it switch from being Reverse Implied Odds to implied odds?

How would I play this hand differently with QQ, JJ, TT, 99?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (3 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($5)
Hero ($41.60)
SB ($26.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $1.65</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, SB calls $3.25.

Flop: ($10.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB calls $26.70 (All-In), Hero calls $21.80.

Turn: ($58.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($58.75) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $58.75

[/ QUOTE ]


FWIW, I play this the same. Is this ever a fold, without a dead on read?


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

104,940 games 0.047 secs 2,232,765 games/sec

Board: 4c 2h 7c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 23.9570 % 23.51% 00.45% { 77+, 44, 22, A8s+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 76.0430 % 75.59% 00.45% { KcKd }

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I play this the same. Is this ever a fold, without a dead on read?


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

104,940 games 0.047 secs 2,232,765 games/sec

Board: 4c 2h 7c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 23.9570 % 23.51% 00.45% { 77+, 44, 22, A8s+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 76.0430 % 75.59% 00.45% { KcKd }


[/ QUOTE ]
You're dreaming with that range. There's no way that a random villain is over-pushing A8s, KQo or AJo given the PF action. You'd need the mother of all reads to include that in his range.

A more likely µNL/SSNL pushing range for villain would be 22, 44, 77+, AK, A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]+, though I think most villains don't push FD+overcards that hard.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

KK hand:

I put villan on 22,88+,Ako, JJ+ and insta call this.
Villan may have AA given his weaksauce pflop rrz but he's going to have to show me.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

I keep losing with AA to lower sets. While I can get away sometimes, there are often boards where I know I'm stacking KK/QQ and if they're smoothcalling raises/3bets with KK/QQ preflop then it's hard to know when I'm up against a set and when I'm good. Pot control obv. doesn't work if they're trying to build a big pot.

Here's an example:
.10/.25 blinds
Folded to Hero (25$)
Hero in MP3 raises to 1$
Button (30$ behind) calls 1$
BB (14$ behind) calls .75

Flop:
T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB checks
Hero bets 2.50$
Button folds
Villian raises to $5.00

A call commits me, a fold seems weak. But I don't see villians check/minraising with anything that AA beats, so I generally fold here anyways.

Now what happens here though?
Hero (30$) is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero raises to 1$ (.10/.25 blinds)
CO (20$) calls 1$, blinds fold
Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets $1.75, Villian raises to $5.00
What's the plan here? We're suddenly OOP and the raise could mean a lot! But from my experience, even in 25NL most villians know enough about reverse implied odds that they're not trying to get allin without AA/KK or a set, and it's a set more often than it's KK. Again, folding here seems weak, but how often are we REALLY good? Another problem here is that many villians WILL raise the flop then fold if we call/raise/bet any more. So this is another case of reverse implied odds.

Now change the setting: Villian smoothcalls the same flop bet. Turn blanks, we've got a rag rainbow non-drawy flop. Should we be going for pot control here or trying to stack JJ/QQ/KK?

I feel as if every time I win with AA/KK it's a small pot, and every time I lose I'm losing 1/4-1/3 my stack. And it seems counterintuitive anyways to try to build a big pot with AA then shut down once I run into resistance. It's like I only get called when I'm beat...

Now most of these examples in this thread refer to weaker hands like JJ/AJ and such; I'm not having a problem folding these hands, but am more specifically running into problems with AA/KK. It just seems a lot harder to laydown AA regularly on uncoordinated flops just because someone raises us. And I have not yet once gotten allin in this situation and been against anything but a set.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

These posts are great, but I think there are many more topics that should be covered. Will these "Concept of the week" threads pick up again anytime soon?

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

I got a great RIO hand that I posted this past week.

Full Tilt Poker
$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
4 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
Hero (BB): $124.8
UTG: $49.75
BTN: $142.65
SB: $74.95

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Khttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif ($0.75, 4 players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $3</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $12</font>, BTN calls $9

<font color="black">Flop:</font> Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 9http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif ($24.25, 2 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $15</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $30</font>, Hero calls $15

<font color="black">Turn:</font> Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 9http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif [T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] ($84.25, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

<font color="black">River:</font> Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 9http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] ($84.25, 2 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $20</font>, BTN calls $20

I'm OOP, over 200bb deep, and facing a large pot on a drawy board. The general consesus was to shove the flop over the raise (thanks to my maniac image), as I'm probably ahead now, and prevents dealing with bad turns and rivers and RIO.
The way I played it, left me stuggling with the board. River was a blocker, cause I don't think he raises without the goods, and I don't wanna get bluffed off my hand.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

[ QUOTE ]
I got a great RIO hand that I posted this past week.

Full Tilt Poker
$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
4 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
Hero (BB): $124.8
UTG: $49.75
BTN: $142.65
SB: $74.95

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Khttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif ($0.75, 4 players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $3</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $12</font>, BTN calls $9

<font color="black">Flop:</font> Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 9http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif ($24.25, 2 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $15</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $30</font>, Hero calls $15

<font color="black">Turn:</font> Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 9http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif [T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] ($84.25, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

<font color="black">River:</font> Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 9http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] ($84.25, 2 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $20</font>, BTN calls $20

I'm OOP, over 200bb deep, and facing a large pot on a drawy board. The general consesus was to shove the flop over the raise (thanks to my maniac image), as I'm probably ahead now, and prevents dealing with bad turns and rivers and RIO.
The way I played it, left me stuggling with the board. River was a blocker, cause I don't think he raises without the goods, and I don't wanna get bluffed off my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be results oriented, but I not curious as to what hand calls your $20 river bet that would not raise you. I am having difficulty putting villain on a hand that he calls such a be RR PF, raises the flop and then only calls a less than 1/4 PSB on the river. AA? KK? Can't be a busted draw.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

It's not trying to extract value. It's preventing bluffs. straight out of No Limit Hold'Em theory and practice. I'm trying to prevent a bluff. I expect a busted draw to fold here, not raise. If I get raised or called, I expect to lose, but that's better than checking, and folding to a 1/2 pot bet from a busted draw. Better to lose $20 here, than lose $80 getting bluffed out. I think it's worthwhile in this spot.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not trying to extract value. It's preventing bluffs. straight out of No Limit Hold'Em theory and practice. I'm trying to prevent a bluff. I expect a busted draw to fold here, not raise. If I get raised or called, I expect to lose, but that's better than checking, and folding to a 1/2 pot bet from a busted draw. Better to lose $20 here, than lose $80 getting bluffed out. I think it's worthwhile in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You misunderstood me...or I didn't explain myself well enough. I totally understand the concept of a blocking bet. And this was an excellent place to use it. I am just curious as to what villain had. If he had a busted draw, then he wouldn't have called. That is what I was guessing he had, but the call on the river surprised me. Now I was trying to think, what hand did he have to play in this manner. I just can't see him calling $20 river bet into a $85 pot with many hands. So....???

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not trying to extract value. It's preventing bluffs. straight out of No Limit Hold'Em theory and practice. I'm trying to prevent a bluff. I expect a busted draw to fold here, not raise. If I get raised or called, I expect to lose, but that's better than checking, and folding to a 1/2 pot bet from a busted draw. Better to lose $20 here, than lose $80 getting bluffed out. I think it's worthwhile in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You misunderstood me...or I didn't explain myself well enough. I totally understand the concept of a blocking bet. And this was an excellent place to use it. I am just curious as to what villain had. If he had a busted draw, then he wouldn't have called. That is what I was guessing he had, but the call on the river surprised me. Now I was trying to think, what hand did he have to play in this manner. I just can't see him calling $20 river bet into a $85 pot with many hands. So....???

[/ QUOTE ]

Never got answered, but it looks like AA to me as well.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

I've just been reading through the posts in the FAQ and other sticked threads in here and SSNL. This is a great topic, but the question of what to do about reverse implied odds never really got answered. As someone said earlier in this thread, "you can't just fold". Is there anywhere else that you can read about reverse implied odds? I wouldn't mind having a read of more information on this topic.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

agreed.... seems like we never got anywhere beyond identifying that we find ourselves in these spots more often then we probably would like to admit.

Is it an unavoidable scenario that occurs when trying to make the most correct plays and make your opps make the biggest mistakes?

Personally, I think it comes down to two things (apologies if this is elementary but at least im taking a step to flush this out further):

1. your ability to put villain on a likely range given how he has played the hand.

2. and identifying RIO situations PF and on Flop and taking a line that allows you to make easier decisions when confronted with the RIO threat.

I think one good point that was made earlier ties in with my first point, that being against unknowns err on the side of folding.

On that 789r flop w JJ and we get minR I think we need a strong read of villain to invest much more money in this hand. Against an unknown i think it is better to lean towards a fold on turn when faced with further aggression unless of course a T hits.

Also, this probably goes without saying, but it would seem that we get into RIO situations a lot more often OOP. As a general rule I sort of naturally play hands more passively after the turn OOP and again will more likely lean towards a fold then if i were IP.

I think RIO is a much more "all-encompassing" idea than the other concepts previously discussed. I'm wondering if the size of this idea and countless applications is the reason this topic is the least explained and explored of these threads.

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

Interesting, personally im against making 1/3,1/4 bets because i just do not have this maneuver in my game, so i would think that any time i do this it would just pop a big red light to any watchfull players. OOP, to a really ugly board with an overpair id c/fold , in position id bet a checking villain, probably fold to a OOP bet , people will call with most draws and higher pp will re-raise me, RIO is this for me : a slight edge, so i try not to get money in the pot at all or fold

But keep this in mind: AQ has been the hand i have been losing the most money with - so i prefer folding these high texture boards with TPaverage kickers or overpairs until Im the player with flush/straight draw, AA, KK reraising...

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

[ QUOTE ]

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $.25/$.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $45.55
UTG+1: $20.87
Hero: $65.50
Button: $15.50
SB: $47.75
BB: $35.85

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG raises to $2.5, 1 folds, Hero calls $2.5 , 3 folds.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($5.50, 2 players)
UTG Bets $4, Hero calls $4.

Here we have the beginnings of a RIO situation. Hero's hand strength is relativily unknown. He called a bet in position with a dominated hand, and saw a flop, and hit. Villain bets and hero just calls.

Turn: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG bets $10, Hero ?

Here is where the real RIO comes in. At this point Hero still has no idea of his relative hand strength, his opponent can still back off on the river if beat, he has little chance of improving and if he does still may be beat, and a call here commits you to the river


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Is this really a RIO-situation for Hero? Sure, you don't know the relative value of your hand... But not every situation in which you don't know the relative value of your hand is a RIO-situation.

And after your flop call, is villain in a RIO-situation? He doesn't know wheter you are slowplaying a set or floating.

Also, I don't see why Hero is committed to the river if he calls the turn-bet.

Can somebody explain this to me?

Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
 

when i have tp or middle pair i 'd most times do a probing bet on flush or straight boards when heads-up.

I think the only way to go throu RIO situations is to avoid them as often as possible. Professional No Limit Hold Em Vol. 1 teaches you the concept of SPR wich is in general a good way to avoid some of these tough situations.