TPNK from the BB
 

$10 FO - nearing the money but not on the bubble yet. I was really lost as this hand was happening and had no plan - can someone give me a better line than the one I took here?

Blinds: t100/t200
(Ante: t25)
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t9448
UTG+1: t6646
MP1: t4430
MP2: t10738
MP3: t4214
CO: t1830
Button: t2680
SB: t6095
Hero: t4210

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t200 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t525)</font>, 2 folds, MP3 calls t200 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t725)</font>, 2 folds, SB calls t100 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t925)</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t1025, 4 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets t800</font>, UTG+1 calls t800 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t1825)</font>, MP3 folds, SB calls t800 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t2625)</font>.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t3425, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets t1600</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in t3185</font>

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

You don't like chips?

c/f &gt; c/r &gt; c/c flop, don't lead out TPNK OOP against two opponents with your stack size without planning to shove turn. Lawn chairs have more FE than you do in this spot.

Did you think, "Oh, what the hell am I doing?" as you c/r'd turn? If you didn't, quit poker.

Edit to add: Your hand's well disguised, it's all limpers PF, it's a drawy board, 98, Q9, sooted stuff, sets to consider, let them bet at it so you can go OTT if you think it's a good spot instead. Your bet's going to get called 'cause they might have those hands and wouldn't have the foresight to raise flop on you.

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

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You don't like chips?

c/f &gt; c/r &gt; c/c flop, don't lead out TPNK OOP against two opponents with your stack size without planning to shove turn. Lawn chairs have more FE than you do in this spot.

Did you think, "Oh, what the hell am I doing?" as you c/r'd turn? If you didn't, quit poker.

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Admittedly when I was faced with the bet on the turn the thought "I really [carebeared] this hand up" was in the forefront of my mind

You really think c/f this flop is best line here?

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

Depends. I really don't like raggy boards with PF limpers.

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

Well my thought process on the flop was to take a stab hoping they would all fold. I was pretty confident that if anyone had a better jack I would get raised and could fold. When I just get called twice I believe I have the best hand and the king while it looks ugly is actually a pretty good card for my hand because it is unlikely that anyone was floating me with a king unless it was something like K10 diamonds. I figured a turn push was likely to scare off hands like 55-99 that would float a flop bet there but would fold if I pushed. Once the bet came back to me I thought I was good often enough to felt it.....

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

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Depends. I really don't like raggy boards with PF limpers.

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You've got a thing about that. You've almost certainly got the best hand on the flop, but a) it's vulnerable and b) you're not going to get wedded to it so bet and evaluate if you get called/raised.

This part is fine. I'm a bit lost on the turn, tbh.

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

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This part is fine. I'm a bit lost on the turn, tbh.

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See my last post for my thoughts on the turn....

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

If that's your thought process, look at how many scare cards hurt you on the turn, and think through the merits of a CRAI flop line. The pot would be smaller, you have more FE, you're ahead of even 12-out draws on probability.

You can get into trouble with TPNK aggression OOP, and frequently upon review, there are superior lines.

The reason I think a c/f is superior to other lines is dependent on opponents' action, and if there's significant interest by the other two on a J42 two-tone board, I'm pretty sure I can dump TPNK here.

If it gets checked to last to act and he makes a stab at the pot, you can do what you think is right, and CRAI or c/c and shove or CRAI good turns, etc.

A lot of multistreet play is taken out of MTT's, this is true, but you can get huge equity on turns with medium stacks. You don't frequently see river action that isn't for stacks so much, so the turn is the new river.

Make sense? I'm trying to explain the thought processes about playing through two streets instead of trying to take down a medium strength hand on flop that may be good. Mainly because opponents drawing, etc. equity falls drastically by turn, and you've frequently swung your small flop edge into a chunky turn edge against fair to decent opponents, and they will feel more committed, especially if they're the one to be the aggressor on the flop.

Edit: I know, registar, and that certainly isn't an issue with actual play. I tend to treat opponents sometimes as if they play perfectly.

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

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If that's your thought process, look at how many scare cards hurt you on the turn, and think through the merits of a CRAI flop line. The pot would be smaller, you have more FE, you're ahead of even 12-out draws on probability.

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Mainly because opponents drawing, etc. equity falls drastically by turn, and you've frequently swung your small flop edge into a chunky turn edge against fair to decent opponents

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These two statements from your above post seem contradictory to me - by taking a CRAI line on the flop I am eliminating my ability to take advantage of a greater edge on the turn. I have enough chips left and a weak enough hand that I could c/f the turn if it is ugly (A or diamond comes to mind) but IMO a strong enough hand to felt on a safe turn. Plus by betting out I think I have more clearly defined which cards are scare cards and which are not - if the flop had checked through I would have had to c/f that turn because it is now likely that at least one of the limpers has me beat

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

They seem contradictory because there are two opponents to act, and there are multiple decisions you can take on flop, and some might be more conducive to different types of opponents, and possible flop actions.

It's seemingly contradictory because it is one of those "it depends" situations and there are lines that work, lines that don't.

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if the flop had checked through I would have had to c/f that turn because it is now likely that at least one of the limpers has me beat

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Note what I said about the flop aggressor feeling committed to a hand, and see where it applies to your action in this specific hand?

I don't mind a lead here necessarily, but you have to either keep up the aggression on turn or c/f. A c/r is just about the worst possible thing you can do here other than openmuck, given stack sizes. What were the pot odds Villain was getting to call your turn c/r?

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

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A c/r is just about the worst possible thing you can do here other than openmuck, given stack sizes. What were the pot odds Villain was getting to call your turn c/r?

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I don't think this is true - when we get to turn I have almost exactly 1 PSB left and villains range here consists of 3 things

1. A draw that has anywhere from about 18-30% pot equity (diamonds with or without an A and/or gutshot)
2. A made hand that I have crushed (55-99, A4)
3. A made hand that has me crushed (44, 22, KJ, KQ, AJ)

If I push I am getting calls from group 3, folds from group 2 and group 1 could go either way

If I CRAI I am getting calls from pretty much everything - the only thing he might fold is a hand in group 2

But here's the point - with stack sizes to start the turn I want to get all-in against group 1, I want group 2 to put in as much money as possible and I am getting all in with group 3 either way. I think CRAI turn &gt; push turn

BTW I really appreciate the feedback and I am enjoying the discussion

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

Ditto and it is an interesting one, but this part is buy-in dependent. They play worse but more transparently at $11's. Even then, it's still opponent-dependent.

And with 2PNK, FE is something you want here with one over on the turn. You don't want him to take a free card either.

So consider the frequencies at which he'll bet hands that fall into 1, 2, 3.

That's been influencing my thought process some. And I take multiple lines, sometimes at random, I guess that happens when you've played so many hands, especially postflop that it almost comes down to pure feel.

Maybe this, maybe that, but your line is not one I'd generally consider, although it's interesting.

If I'm Villain, I'm bet/calling generally with something that at least beats 2PNK on turn or has a redraw strong enough against the pot odds your CRAI would offer. And I'd consider those elements before deciding what to do on turn.

If I'm bluffing or figure you'll call the turn, I'll shove also. A t1600 bet from a decent opponent is an invitation sometimes to stick the rest in to get maximum value.

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

As a third party your disscussion has been really informative and enjoyable for me as well.

I really like your reasons for checking but think that it's a mistake to check the turn. With this flop, we have to assume that at least one of the villians is on a draw and if it checks through we just gave away a free card.

If your not scared of that king then open pushing is the place for me. That said this really seems to be opponent/read dependent.

It's kind of the simple approach but this might be a place not to over think it.

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

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I really like your reasons for checking but think that it's a mistake to check the turn. With this flop, we have to assume that at least one of the villians is on a draw and if it checks through we just gave away a free card.

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The risk of a free card to beat me is a consideration here and I agree it is somewhat read dependant. Without a specific read I think UTG+1 bets here often enough to make it a minimal concern - with 2 players left in the pot and both showing no strength after his flop action I expect him to stab at this pot a large majority of the time - either to protect his hand against the draws or as a semi-bluff against perceived weakness

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

Ok using this read we are putting UTG+1 on 1 of 2 plays.

1. He is protecting his hand from draws. Do we have a range here? Are we ahead of this range enough? If this is the case I'm worried that I'm not ahead here and maybe the check was ok. But now I question the all in.

2. If the UTG+1 is semi-bluffing then did we just price him in to the all in call? And is this what we want? We allowed him to play pretty good if we do.

Just my thoughts.

Re: TPNK from the BB
 

A bit to add, might have merit, nearing a bubble, there might be value in turn aggression.

Results
 

Well I really enjoyed talking about this one and I am still not sure if my line was good in general but it worked out pretty well in this case because he insta-mucked to my CR - I guess even lawn chairs have fold equity sometimes [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Results
 

LOL

Re: Results
 

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LOL

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