Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

You make it to the Final Table of the Foxwoods $5k NL event, and it is a very tough table. Bernard Lee goes on a mad rush 3 handed, getting JJ, AA, JJ, 54(flop A23), then AA again and he knocks out 3rd place finisher Russ Rosenblum and seizes the chip lead. He has 1.375mm to your 905k, and he offers you a deal.

1st place is supposed to get $368,919 and 2nd gets $187,132. You are confident you can beat him HU as he is very predictable(read: doesn't bluff), but he does have a good sized lead and is running extremely well(didn't lose a single allin ahead or behind the entire day). The blinds will be 15k-30k/4k for maybe another 20 minutes then go to 20k-40k/5k.

He wants to be the official "winner," so he would get the "title" and the crystal engraved bowl. You are now 40 yrs old and you don't have the ego you had back in the day, but the $ isn't changing your life either.

Using the info above, how much $ does he have to give you for you to accept "2nd place?"

Ignore tax consequences as I will report whatever extra I get to the IRS.

Bax

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

off the top of my head 300k sounds right.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

I'd probably want very close to an even chop, something like $275k, but I've never played for anywhere near these stakes so I don't really know. If he desperately wants to be the "winner", I'll try and exploit that by getting more cash than I'd get with a chip chop.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

i agree with 300k

with 20-30xbb, you have enough room to maneuver to incl your skill edge in the discussion.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

Bax,
Given all info you posted, I would guess you said, "I will give you title for even chop, no other deals", and he caved.

Congrats!!

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

I'd be amazed if our equity were actually 300k, but I'd ask for it.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

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I'd be amazed if our equity were actually 300k, but I'd ask for it.

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no way it is (sorry bax), but thats not really important, is it?

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

Without knowing Chip equity, i think anything over 250K is awesome for us.

How big an edge do you think you have? if he gives you close to an even chop while holding a decent chiplead i think you are doing pretty well. whats the chip equity look like?

I'd want chip equity +25K or more.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

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I'd be amazed if our equity were actually 300k, but I'd ask for it.

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It's not just equity, it obv means something to the guy to win the trophy. So use that as leverage yes its higher than your equity but in his eyes he still gets a good chunk and the title which seems to have more importance to him than money.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

He wants the prestige of being the winner. There's roughly 556k at stake. Start the negotiations at 325 and backtrack to 300 graciously.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

I would never ask for $300k. Maybe that's a mistake but that seems like an amount that immediately leads to: "Are you [censored] serious? Let's play it out." I'd be amazed if our equity is even 275k, so I'd start around there.

Steve

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would never ask for $300k. Maybe that's a mistake but that seems like an amount that immediately leads to: "Are you [censored] serious? Let's play it out." I'd be amazed if our equity is even 275k, so I'd start around there.

Steve

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I would. What happens when a predictable player gets pissed at your audacity?

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I would never ask for $300k. Maybe that's a mistake but that seems like an amount that immediately leads to: "Are you [censored] serious? Let's play it out." I'd be amazed if our equity is even 275k, so I'd start around there.

Steve

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I would. What happens when a predictable player gets pissed at your audacity?

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He plays more aggressively, which for him essentially equals him playing better?

Steve

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

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I'd be amazed if our equity is even 275k, so I'd start around there.

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This makes absolutely no sense in a negotiating-sense.

Do you see why?

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

$259K is a good deal for 2nd place.

===========================

Chip Count
Player 1 1379000 60%
Player 2 905000 40%
Total Chips 2284000

Prize
First Place $368,919.00
Second $187,132.00
Total $556,051.00
Taken $374,264.00
Left for Chop $181,787.00
Player 1 Chip Share $109,072.20
Player 2 Chip Share $72,714.80
Player 1 Gets $296,204.20
Player 2 Gets $259,846.80

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would never ask for $300k. Maybe that's a mistake but that seems like an amount that immediately leads to: "Are you [censored] serious? Let's play it out." I'd be amazed if our equity is even 275k, so I'd start around there.

Steve

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I would. What happens when a predictable player gets pissed at your audacity?

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I would offer you get $300K and he gets the title. Let him bargain you down a little, but I wouldn't take an even chop.

When negotiating, tell him you really want the title too. Also, tell him about your accomplishments and reputation. That will make it easier for him to accept an unfavorable chop.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

hint: if someone wants to do a deal and buy the title, you can get a lot more than your equity, and hes not flat out refusing any deal, even if you start at first place cash, hes not going to just say play it out

id be surprised if you couldnt get 300k out of him if the fair amount is 260k

i start at first place cash and see what he says

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

After seeing the chip equity i would want 280k at a minimum. or play it out. $20k is more than reasonable.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

I wouldn't have the audacity to start at 1st place money, but you could start higher than $300K. OP's expectation if it is played out is probably around $300K, so I wouldn't settle for much less than that.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

how can you settle for less than expectation when he wants to buy the win to the tournament? you can seriously take him to the cleaners here

if this is a wsop bracelet event i start higher than first place cash

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would never ask for $300k. Maybe that's a mistake but that seems like an amount that immediately leads to: "Are you [censored] serious? Let's play it out." I'd be amazed if our equity is even 275k, so I'd start around there.

Steve

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I would. What happens when a predictable player gets pissed at your audacity?

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He plays more aggressively, which for him essentially equals him playing better?

Steve

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Conceded. He will make worse decisions also, so for an aggressive player, this is exploitable. I'm saying, be reasonable but stubborn, don't tiltmonnkey him. That's not classy.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

225

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

im sorry 275

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

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That's not classy.

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I think this right here is why I hate deals so much. Asking for 300k is completely ridiculous. It's insulting to the other guy and has basically a zero percent chance of being accepted. Now evg will probably tell me that you should ask for 300 even if you know it won't be accepted because of some perceived advantage it will give you in negotiations. That's ridiculous. You and your opponent are (hopefully) rational, intelligent people. There really shouldn't be any need for all this posturing. Just decide what you think is a reasonable deal, propose it and tell the guy that's as low as you'll go. If he declines, play it out. Also, if it were me playing and I felt I'd win >50% of the time I wouldn't even offer a deal. It's insulting to the other guy to offer a deal where you get more than him despite him having a fairly substantial chip lead.

I guess what it comes down to is I'm willing to give up some EV in these deal situations to avoid being a dick.

Steve

P.S. Fortuna, this reply isn't directed at you, it's just your quote is what made me think about all this.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

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P.S. Fortuna, this reply isn't directed at you, it's just your quote is what made me think about all this.

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I realize that, Steve, naw worries. I wouldn't make deals either, so this is just a theortical opinion.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

I don't know if this is just me or not, and I've not been in any situation like the OP is, but for me it seems kind of ridiculous that one can "buy" the championship. I know the money is good and all (especially in this situation), but my main goal when I'm playing any tourney is 1st place, and I don't know how much someone would have to offer me to make me simply give it to them....just my thoughts

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

No deal . . .

. . . but since you asked the question, atleast 275K.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

even chop or no deal since he wants the title and you are better.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

I am always amazed at the people who say they just want the title, but they don't want to actually play for it. If you chop you should still have to play for the title, if you get it without playing for it you are the champion of nothing.

This guy sounds like a doof, I'd just take him to school HU.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

I'm not classy and a dick then I guess.

But whatevs, I've played one live MTT and when we got HU almost even-stacked i asked for like an extra 20% equity.

He said no and so I was offended and beat him. balla obv

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

1.375 mill to 900k isn't that big of a lead

play until you get the chip lead and then say you want 1st place money and he gets the title

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

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I don't know if this is just me or not, and I've not been in any situation like the OP is, but for me it seems kind of ridiculous that one can "buy" the championship. I know the money is good and all (especially in this situation), but my main goal when I'm playing any tourney is 1st place, and I don't know how much someone would have to offer me to make me simply give it to them....just my thoughts

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Why not? You can buy your way into any elite school. You can buy a high level political appointment in the government. You can buy a company. You can even buy your way into the WSOP ME, $50K HORSE tournament, and the WPT championship. So why not be able to buy a tournament win.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

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1.375 mill to 900k isn't that big of a lead

play until you get the chip lead and then say you want 1st place money and he gets the title

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It is kind of arrogant to assume you are getting it back to even. Even a worse player has a chance to win with a 3-2 advantage. If he wants to deal, I would offer something somewhat more favorable than what you think your expectation is. If he wants to take it, he gets the title and some money without having to beat a strong player. If not, fine.

I have a lot more first place than second place finishes online. A lot of people don't know how to play HU. I definately wouldn't accept an even chop if was OP.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

Steve most of us play for money, some players play for presitge. The CL makes it sound like presitige is more important than money so why not use that to your adv. Honestly, it's not like you offered it he brought it up.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

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Steve most of us play for money, some players play for presitge. The CL makes it sound like presitige is more important than money so why not use that to your adv. Honestly, it's not like you offered it he brought it up.

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Different schools of thought, shaun. Consider that OP is well known and his background's no secret. When the money's no big thing, some priorities change. And if you're young, hungry FTW and 40-50k isn't gonna affect your roll all that much...

evg, it ain't about being unclassy or being a dick. I'm sayin', get it HU, don't be nasty about it. Be strong and stand your ground. Don't insult his mother or the 6-bound boil hanging off his temple. You know what I mean, dude. If you figure you can smear him 'cross the tables, work from a negotiation positiion of strength and eventually work your way back to a even chop +20-30k without letting on that you're a more powerful negotiator and better player overall. Several hours later, it ain't gonna matter, but you'll have earned street cred at a very public negotiation.

Just more thoughts. It's an interesting discussion, personally.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

With the consideration in mind that the $ isn't life changing or that "big of a deal", I'd definitely say no chop. The chip difference is negligible and you are unquestionably the better player. Go for the title and the 1st place money baby.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

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If you figure you can smear him 'cross the tables, work from a negotiation positiion of strength and eventually work your way back to a even chop +20-30k without letting on that you're a more powerful negotiator and better player overall.

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This is exactly my point and I don't understand where my comments diverge from this.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

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[ QUOTE ]
If you figure you can smear him 'cross the tables, work from a negotiation positiion of strength and eventually work your way back to a even chop +20-30k without letting on that you're a more powerful negotiator and better player overall.

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This is exactly my point and I don't understand where my comments diverge from this.

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They didn't, brah. Just reinforcing your argument.

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if this is just me or not, and I've not been in any situation like the OP is, but for me it seems kind of ridiculous that one can "buy" the championship. I know the money is good and all (especially in this situation), but my main goal when I'm playing any tourney is 1st place, and I don't know how much someone would have to offer me to make me simply give it to them....just my thoughts

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I always play for first place too. But are you really playing for first because you "win", sure kind of. But the real reason any logical person should play for first is to win not the tournament title per se, but the top money prize. I would certainly always "sell" the title in a HU situation in exchange for a deal that is very +$EV, especially when stacks are 40/60 against me. What better way to sucker someone into a "win" with his dandy little punch bowl, when the real winner is the one on the advantageous side of the deal.

That being said with JB's skill advantage I would maybe take an even chop but definitely start higher, say 300. Why not? First of all we're not in a hurry to do a deal anyways since we don't mind playing it out w/ our clear skill adv. The guy wants his 15 minutes and his bowl, and he might just say yes. As for all this worrying about being a dick, how offended is the guy gonna get anyway if you are acting in a professional manner? What are you trying to take him out to dinner and dancing afterwards?

Re: Foxwoods $5k NL HU Deal
 

You are heads up and chips are fairly even. You take first place money he takes first place prize.