paging Lee Jones
 

Softplay more

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

I thought this was encouraged on Stars?

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this was encouraged on Stars?

[/ QUOTE ]

From the last time this was brought up, I remember it is definetely not discouraged.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought this was encouraged on Stars?

[/ QUOTE ]

From the last time this was brought up, I remember it is definetely not discouraged.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, it's a [censored] joke a site allows this. I think they should just ban them from playing at the same tables. People who obviouly show this much intent on working together, what prevents them from picking up the cell phone in high stake games and talking while playing?????

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

Action should most definitely be taken here. Stars' rep depends upon it.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

I and some friends have several times emailed support about this. We always get the standard reply where they assure us that they have reviewed the concerned player's history and that there is no sign of collusion/softplaying/whatever you want to call it.

It is obvious that they care much more about the huge rake amounts those players pay than about the integrity of the game.

Care to comment Stars? (probably not, it's easier to hide under the bed and pretend nobody from Stars ever read this thread).

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, and it still pi ss es me of when on the turn one player bets and the other raises to try to kick me out, knowing that when he succeeds in his evil plan (lol) he does not have to fear the reraise of the innitial bettor because that player will then softplay him, even if he thought he would have him beat.
I've seen this wicked tool (lol) being used over and over again, especially against visitors who where new at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

I have never seen a land based room where soft play in a ring game was prohibited when only two players remain. It's annoying and is not good for the game but it's allowed.

What about FTP - do they allow it?

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have never seen a land based room where soft play in a ring game was prohibited when only two players remain. It's annoying and is not good for the game but it's allowed.

What about FTP - do they allow it?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is allowed in cash games, and should be so long as they dont squeeze someone out first and then softplay.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

We need to bump this thread. That way it will become more and more obvious that Stars representatives , in Gibraltar, London or 2+2 forums are not willing to deal with this collusion problem at the high stakes cash tables.

Nothing new under the sky as this exactly same problem has been unpunished since the days when the highest game was NL 3/6 (3 or 4 years ago) and with the exactly same players as the main actors.

STARS: When we come with suggestions that allow you to make more money from us, you have no problem showing up here and telling us how much you love us. Now we are pointing out a problem that has to do with your integrity but unfortunately resolving it could cost you money and your answer so far is:
Don't call us, we'll call you.

NICE!

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars takes potential collusion very seriously, and we have state of
the art systems to detect and counter it, as well as a dedicated Collusion
Investigation Team and Security department working 24 hours a day, 7 days
a week, to ensure that you play in games that are fair and safe.

As you know, both ElkY and twin-caracas are high-profile players in the
online world, and as such, any unusual action they take comes under
scrutiny. Every time a player like ElkY checks pocket aces on the river,
or raises in first position with rags, we get an email from a concerned
individual wondering if they are cheating. Of course we investigate all of
these complaints, and players like ElkY and twin-caracas are reviewed
frequently as a result.

We have never found anything to make us believe that either ElkY or twin-
caracas is working with another player to the detriment of others.

In this particular hand, it is clear that for whatever reason, ElkY and
twin-caracas chose not to bet their strong hands against one another. Note
however that this is a heads-up pot, and is a cash game, not a tournament.
The other players are not affected in any way by their decision to check
it down - they have no legitimate interest in what happens.

If this had been a tournament, the equity of the other players at the
table would have been significantly affected by the decision, and we would
have grounds to take action. We would also possibly have reason to take
action if a third player had been present in the pot. However this was not
the case, and we have plenty of evidence to show that ElkY and twin-
caracas do play strongly against each other when other players are
involved.

Also note that there is no evidence to support an assumption that the two
players are sharing their hole cards with each other or communicating in
other ways. If one player had bet and the other had folded - well, that
would be a different story.

In summary, I am not concerned about unethical play here. ElkY and twin-
caracas may not be playing in the usual way, but their play does not pose
any threat to other players and therefore we have no grounds for action.

[/ QUOTE ]

lolz?

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

LOL, Stars official position is that TC and Elky (and many others for that matter) are not doing anything wrong AFTER they have chased everyone else from the pot.

Of course the actual chasing is not mentionned....

They should have a sign on their door: CHEATERS WELCOME

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

Reef... let me get this straight...

PS Support is saying they have plenty of evidence that these 2 players are aggresive when there are others in the pot, and soft when it is only the 2 of them?... and this is OK...

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

William you can bump all you want, but soft play between two remaining players in a ring game is not collusion and is universally accepted.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reef... let me get this straight...

PS Support is saying they have plenty of evidence that these 2 players are aggresive when there are others in the pot, and soft when it is only the 2 of them?... and this is OK...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's certainly what it looks like to me.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

Not in my world and I will keep bumping. Bad principles that make dollars are ignored until they become embarassing and start scaring customers away. Same thing happened to the reload bug. Nothing wrong with it until too many people started complaining. Then they had no problem fixing it.

Let me also remind you that even if the OP's post is about 2 players, there are plenty of players that are involved in this practice with each other. If you go and play that way with your brother at a casino and explain that you softplay eachother because he is your brother, most will have no problem with it. When you sit at a table and half the players have an agreement with eachother without you knowing about it, it's very morally debatable and should not be allowed.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you sit at a table and half the players have an agreement with eachother without you knowing about it, it's very morally debatable and should not be allowed.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are right here, but that's not what the OP complaint was about. He had an example where two players were the only ones in a hand and they soft played each other.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not in my world

[/ QUOTE ]

What world do you live in? Every single online and offline poker room allows this form of soft playing in cash games. Bellagio, Commerce, Stars, Party, etc.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

William, you must have been dropped on your head and seen plenty of Stars when you were a kid.

Do not EVER question PokerStars.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not in my world

[/ QUOTE ]

What world do you live in? Every single online and offline poker room allows this form of soft playing in cash games. Bellagio, Commerce, Stars, Party, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH.... a honest one? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Read my previous post. There is a difference between softplaying a friend and being part of a softplay group.

Try to show up at the Bellagio and tell the poker manager that you and 4 of your friends that softplay eachother after they have chased other players off the pot will be playing at the same table tonight... let me know if they still allow it.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not in my world

[/ QUOTE ]

What world do you live in? Every single online and offline poker room allows this form of soft playing in cash games. Bellagio, Commerce, Stars, Party, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH.... a honest one? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Read my previous post. There is a difference between softplaying a friend and being part of a softplay group.

Try to show up at the Bellagio and tell the poker manager that you and 4 of your friends that softplay eachother after they have chased other players off the pot will be playing at the same table tonight... let me know if they still allow it.

[/ QUOTE ]
We're talking about two people, not four. Two plus two is four.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

We're talking about two people, not four. Two plus two is four

Dude, obviously tou have no idea what you're talking about. In the OP's post, 2 players were concerned, but those 2 have agreements with many, many others. That is the point. Stars knows it as it has been brought to their attention many, many times and still allows it.

Also, anybody that thinks it should continue to be allowed is either doing it himself or will never, ever be playing those games and therefor has no qualified opinion.

I know it's all about the money but it gets more and more difficult for normal players when cheaters are allowed to operate.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]

Also, anybody that thinks it should continue to be allowed is either doing it himself or will never, ever be playing those games and therefor has no qualified opinion.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, OK, against all past history I had been agreeing with you on this one, but I guess I'm not qualified.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

Don't despair, if you're not doing it yourself, you still qualify.
Happy now? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

Are you playing in these games or is it a story you heard from somebody else?

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

I don't know what i'm talking about?

I'm not the person who is questioning PokerStars over something that is perfectly legal in like every B&M cardroom.

You're gonna get whats comin' to you if you keep acting like this with Stars!
When you are old and impotent, you will be the one soft playing.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

I think it sucks that they allow it, it does not stop me from playing neither of them as I haven't seen them do anything unethical otherwise, they are really not to blame as long as Stars allow it is not weird that they do it. The reason why I am sceptical at Stars allowing it, is that twin-caracas constantly 3-bets suited connectors and this agreement makes it more possible that he will be allowed to go to the river cheaply thus making his hand more valuable and the 3-bet less risky than it would be otherwise (vs. good players 89s has better equity without a flop betting round than with).

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

I was playing when the games were not that high and it already was a problem.
Besides that, I happen to know a few of the regulars and some of them have told me about it.

Before you ask, my "friends" know I am against this and post here to try to change the site's policy but they just laugh and point out how much money Stars would be losing if they chased everybody away to another site. So far they have been right.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing when the games were not that high and it already was a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure you were "playing"?

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

I'm not even going to bother answering that question. You may believe what you want.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

You got owned so hard William. GG.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

You know, most of the time I think William is an anoying pretentious blowhard but I think he's right here.

The online game isn't the same as the live game that's just reality.

When the game is under attack the way it is the sites should be bending over backwards to not only be on the up and up but look like they are on the up and up.

I sent Stars an e-mail asking them to reconsider their position on this issue.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

Ok, haha.

Let me add that I undestand perfectly that it is not easy for Stars to do something here. Bottom line is that there are always 2 players left and they can in principle do whatever they want. However, these kind of situations occur so often that it is difficult to keep arguing that they play like that for whatever reason they chose and that it is not Stars place to tell them what to do.
The game has no integrity and everybody knows it. It takes a little courage to rule but it has to be done.

How can anybody think that it is ok to have a game where a group of people just sit there to take newcomers money and not eachother's?

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
How can anybody think that it is ok to have a game where a group of people just sit there to take newcomers money and not eachother's?

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, those two players are not capable of taking the other players' money.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

When I played live, the biggest game in town was held by this megabandit. It was the same scenario. There were 8 seats at the table and 5, maybe 6 of them were occupied by people that had an agreement with the house. It was all about getting as much as possible from the 2/3 idiots that showed up that day, then the group would share their money. I was asked to work with them many times (and no, I didn't) and I believe that the fish knew what was going on, but fish will always be fish, no matter what and they kept coming back.

Obviously the ones that do this online have done it before live. The game just moved somewhere else.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can anybody think that it is ok to have a game where a group of people just sit there to take newcomers money and not eachother's?

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, those two players are not capable of taking the other players' money.

[/ QUOTE ]


Not worth much I am afraid because (blinds x 80 times x 8 tables + occasionaly an extra bet or two and a turn bet as well) adds to a lot of money at the end of the session.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars takes potential collusion very seriously, and we have state of
the art systems to detect and counter it, as well as a dedicated Collusion
Investigation Team and Security department working 24 hours a day, 7 days
a week, to ensure that you play in games that are fair and safe.

As you know, both ElkY and twin-caracas are high-profile players in the
online world, and as such, any unusual action they take comes under
scrutiny. Every time a player like ElkY checks pocket aces on the river,
or raises in first position with rags, we get an email from a concerned
individual wondering if they are cheating. Of course we investigate all of
these complaints, and players like ElkY and twin-caracas are reviewed
frequently as a result.

We have never found anything to make us believe that either ElkY or twin-
caracas is working with another player to the detriment of others.

In this particular hand, it is clear that for whatever reason, ElkY and
twin-caracas chose not to bet their strong hands against one another. Note
however that this is a heads-up pot, and is a cash game, not a tournament.
The other players are not affected in any way by their decision to check
it down - they have no legitimate interest in what happens.

If this had been a tournament, the equity of the other players at the
table would have been significantly affected by the decision, and we would
have grounds to take action. We would also possibly have reason to take
action if a third player had been present in the pot. However this was not
the case, and we have plenty of evidence to show that ElkY and twin-
caracas do play strongly against each other when other players are
involved.

Also note that there is no evidence to support an assumption that the two
players are sharing their hole cards with each other or communicating in
other ways. If one player had bet and the other had folded - well, that
would be a different story.

In summary, I am not concerned about unethical play here. ElkY and twin-
caracas may not be playing in the usual way, but their play does not pose
any threat to other players and therefore we have no grounds for action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have played with both of these guys in the past and don't have any reason to believe anything is going on. Both can be tricky, eratic and hard to read. Signs they could be varying their play, going on a hunch, busy playing four games and/or drunk.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

Yeah, sure....
I have played with both these guys myself for a very long time and I have to agree that Elky has always been discreet. Twin on the other hand has always been involved in discussions about how to earn as much as possible against this ot that player (also often talking about games at other sites and asking one or another player to come and join the game). He's also often refered to phone conversations with other players at the table. The guy obviously believes that the Stars tables is his own personal office where he arranges meetings, phone calls and other stuff.

Sometimes when he's travelling and can't play, he even backs a friend and instructs him to tell that he is playing with Twin's money to let other players know that all agreements still run.

And again, he is not the only one.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

I have to agree with William here (which I don't think I've ever done before). I just don't agree with him to this extreme. I would certainly not play with these guys. They have too much to gain by tag teaming everyone out pots if they play together as much as people say.

Re: paging Lee Jones
 

I have to say I haven't played much with them in over a year and a half, and I always multitable.

But you would think if they are cheating, they would be smart enough not to mention they talk or are talking on the phone. Maybe not...