deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

25-50 at foxwoods. jc has about 17k and i cover. he seems very good but is on the tighter side whereas i am on the laggy side.

hes been wanting to repop me preflop for some time now and i feared that if i folded it would open the door for him to do it regularly, forcing me to tighten up and play less profitably. i thought there was a good chance he was light. i also thought because were so deepstacked and i dont mind coinflipping for stacks on a draw it would be ok. in hindsight however, because were so deepstacked maybe calling with a suited ace preflop is a bad idea? i cant imagine getting all the money in on a coinflip with these stacks. all that will end up happening is ill be calling bets OOP with a draw against a player who reads hands well.

i openraise Ac8c from MP2 to 200, jc repops to 600 in CO, folds to me i call.

flop is QJ3r

i check, he checks

turn is an A

i check, he bets 800, i call

river is a J

i check, he bets $1600

what % of the time should i call this? hows the hand up to this point?

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

There are so many things about this post I don't get:

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hes been wanting to repop me preflop for some time now and i feared that if i folded it would open the door for him to do it regularly, forcing me to tighten up and play less profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's been WANTING to 3-bet you? That means he hasn't pounded on you yet, and why on earth would you folding ONE hand (a really bad one in terms of calling) make you assume he's gonna go all crazy on you? Just fold and see what develops in future hands instead, then you'll know for sure.

Next:

[ QUOTE ]
and i dont mind coinflipping for stacks on a draw it would be ok

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i cant imagine getting all the money in on a coinflip with these stacks

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Sounds VERY contradictory.

As played, the turn call is alright, and I'd fold the river.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

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As played, the turn call is alright, and I'd fold the river.

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Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

I'd lead the turn for 800 rather than ch/c it. I think it makes the hand easier. As played I'd call the river. I don't think your flop ch and turn call makes him 100% certain he can't get a river fold out of you.

Like you said though, why play the sooted A if you don't try to take it down when you connect.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

[ QUOTE ]
25-50 at foxwoods. jc has about 17k and i cover. he seems very good but is on the tighter side whereas i am on the laggy side.

hes been wanting to repop me preflop for some time now and i feared that if i folded it would open the door for him to do it regularly, forcing me to tighten up and play less profitably. i thought there was a good chance he was light. i also thought because were so deepstacked and i dont mind coinflipping for stacks on a draw it would be ok. in hindsight however, because were so deepstacked maybe calling with a suited ace preflop is a bad idea? i cant imagine getting all the money in on a coinflip with these stacks. all that will end up happening is ill be calling bets OOP with a draw against a player who reads hands well.

i openraise Ac8c from MP2 to 200, jc repops to 600 in CO, folds to me i call.

flop is QJ3r

i check, he checks

turn is an A

i check, he bets 800, i call

river is a J

i check, he bets $1600

what % of the time should i call this? hows the hand up to this point?

[/ QUOTE ]

With your hand and against this opponent I think a reraise/fold > calling preflop.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd lead the turn for 800 rather than ch/c it. I think it makes the hand easier. As played I'd call the river. I don't think your flop ch and turn call makes him 100% certain he can't get a river fold out of you.

Like you said though, why play the sooted A if you don't try to take it down when you connect.

[/ QUOTE ]

your logic sucks. making a bad play to make the hand "easier" is dumb. and why would he "try to take it down" when he hits his ace? you make it sound like we cant win a poker hand at showdown.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

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Sounds VERY contradictory.

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i was intentionally pointing out that my logic may be incorrect and upon writing this post thought it may be more correct to call with suited aces in these situations with a shortstack then with a deepstack.

also, i didnt think he was going to go all crazy on me obviously, and if he was that would be a good thing for me. up until this point i didnt think he was 3betting me as often as he should have, and i didnt want folding this one time to induce him into playing closer to what i thought was correct against me.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

Just fold preflop.

Postflop, I agree with everyone else, turn call is fine, fold river.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

Here's what I said -

[ QUOTE ]
I'd lead the turn for 800 rather than ch/c it. I think it makes the hand easier. As played I'd call the river. I don't think your flop ch and turn call makes him 100% certain he can't get a river fold out of you.

Like you said though, why play the sooted A if you don't try to take it down when you connect.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
your logic sucks. making a bad play to make the hand "easier" is dumb. and why would he "try to take it down" when he hits his ace? you make it sound like we cant win a poker hand at showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggested taking the lead when he hit TP after the flop was ch'd. Disagreeing is fine, but why act like a jerk and twist it around by saying it's something way more than that.

When I disagree with someone I stick my neck out and, whether it's right or not, offer my alternative play. You should try it.

Why would leading the A on the turn and possibly taking it down with a bet such a bad play? Let's hear it.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I said -

[ QUOTE ]
I'd lead the turn for 800 rather than ch/c it. I think it makes the hand easier. As played I'd call the river. I don't think your flop ch and turn call makes him 100% certain he can't get a river fold out of you.

Like you said though, why play the sooted A if you don't try to take it down when you connect.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
your logic sucks. making a bad play to make the hand "easier" is dumb. and why would he "try to take it down" when he hits his ace? you make it sound like we cant win a poker hand at showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggested taking the lead when he hit TP after the flop was ch'd. Disagreeing is fine, but why act like a jerk and twist it around by saying it's something way more than that.

When I disagree with someone I stick my neck out and, whether it's right or not, offer my alternative play. You should try it.

Why would leading the A on the turn and possibly taking it down with a bet such a bad play? Let's hear it.

[/ QUOTE ]

your logic is bad/wrong and you are approaching poker in a bad/wrong way. what range of hands do you put villain on and what does betting accomplish against each hand in that range?

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

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up until this point i didnt think he was 3betting me as often as he should have, and i didnt want folding this one time to induce him into playing closer to what i thought was correct against me.

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You take the worst of it calling reraises OOP with hands like this one. I'm not sure you make up for it by a decreased frequency of reraises.

Put it this way: if some guy is calling my reraises with trash, and I've got position on him, I'm sure as hell not gonna stop reraising him.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

umm, fwiw, im never folding pf here. ever. like, 0 in a bajillion times. sometimes i end up playing it like u did, call calling turn river. sometimes i call turn fold river. sometimes i lead turn. really depends, guess ya gotta be there. but pf is def fine dont listen to ppl saying fold thats just ridiculous 17k deep. with all the history or whatever id probably end up paying off river since u have such a laggy image, and if u callbox down a few hands ppl will be less prone to bluff you etc etc. holla

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

raptor's advice is good. Anyone saying to fold preflop for $400 more $17k deep with a suited ace... lol. I'd probably fold the river though.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

[ QUOTE ]
raptor's advice is good. Anyone saying to fold preflop for $400 more $17k deep with a suited ace... lol. I'd probably fold the river though.

[/ QUOTE ]

JC doesn't exactly get that 17k in too often, and he's not going to get flushed vs. flushed too often given how tight his range is here.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

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your logic is bad/wrong and you are approaching poker in a bad/wrong way. what range of hands do you put villain on and what does betting accomplish against each hand in that range?

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What's so hard here donkey? Instead of continuing to question the logic/line I suggested, just explain your thoughts on the hand. You seem to be pretty sure about what's bad poker. Explain the right approach to the hand on the turn and why.

Criticizing without having the courtesy to take a logical position of your own is just trolling. It's lame. If you're trying to help, or pointing out what's wrong, explaining your thoughts on the right line is the way to do it.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

Gawd, it's so basic and self-explanatory that nobody cares explaining it Sa125.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

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what % of the time should i call this?

[/ QUOTE ]
either 100% or 0%, and I lean to 100%

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

yeah, for those speaking about the implied odds here, its not like when we hit the nuts JC goes broke

in a game such as this though id fold pf too, let jc take it down

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

how could you say 100% of 0%? it seems like its definitely a matter of frequencies. if i always call or always fold im exploitable.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

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how could you say 100% of 0%? it seems like its definitely a matter of frequencies. if i always call or always fold im exploitable.

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I didnt say 100% of 0%, that would be 0%. I said one or the other is always correct

BTW, if that makes you exploitable... wow. The decision to call or fold here is ALWAYS correct or ALWAYS incorrect...

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

LOL, MDMA. Waiting for a hand posted by you to see the master in action.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

[ QUOTE ]
raptor's advice is good. Anyone saying to fold preflop for $400 more $17k deep with a suited ace... lol. I'd probably fold the river though.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF, who cares if you've got 17k back. It's not like he's going to stack off with one pair, and he's going to use position to make the pot his bitch. Look at the way the hand played out.

You're always taking a -EV hit by calling a good opponent's reraise with a poor hand OOP. vs. an opponent of comparable skill there's no way this is profitable.

Now, make the reraiser a fish instead of the wily mr. Moussa and I've got no problem with the call.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

i didnt mean to type "of", i meant to type "or". btw bobbo, wtf? usually i think your posts are very rational but here i disagree with you entirely. if i call this river 0% of the time he can bluff me with impunity. if i call this river 100% of the time he never has to bluff me. clearly i have to call a certain % of the time to be playing optimally.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

[ QUOTE ]
i didnt mean to type "of", i meant to type "or". btw bobbo, wtf? usually i think your posts are very rational but here i disagree with you entirely. if i call this river 0% of the time he can bluff me with impunity. if i call this river 100% of the time he never has to bluff me. clearly i have to call a certain % of the time to be playing optimally.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, i cant go into this further then just:

how the hell can you expect him to know what you do anywhere from 0% to 100%? unless he can read your mind, he cant. thus, the decision is clear. (always do one or the other) there is no metagame here.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

M,

"Gawd, it's so basic and self-explanatory that nobody cares explaining it Sa125."

Man, you are turning into a dick! Maybe you need to spend some time in a nicer forum?

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

Haha, you and FV has turned me into a MONSTARR [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

[ QUOTE ]
raptor's advice is good. Anyone saying to fold preflop for $400 more $17k deep with a suited ace... lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

Hi T,

i think u played it ok so far. As for river u actually have three options. In short handed games i sometimes go for a slight overbet on river but i dont think that would work well here... I dont think check-call is that bad, but consider what a check-raise would accomplish...

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

fold before the flop, fold on the river barring any read

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

IMO, one of the best ways to get yourself into bad spots where you can spew chips psotflop is to get it in your head that someone is going to start playing back at you lightley and open up your range of calling re-raises. With your type of hand, it will be difficult to make a disguised hand and win a big pot. As played, i fold the river, AQ and AJ are very likely for him IMO.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

Fold river.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

What's your 4-betting range preflop tstone? And why doesn't it contain A8s ?

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

All,

I see the argument for folding A8s pre. Can the range be opened to include A2-5s ?

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

I think the 'fold preflop' camp is making a ton of sense. jcmoussa will probably make it expensive to draw, it's not easy to outplay someone out of position, and he's not going to pay off his whole stack if you hit the nuts. Meanwhile, you make a lot of second best hands and get yourself into difficult spots like this one where you have a bluff catcher but you don't know if you've induced a bluff.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

for everyone firmly in the fold camp, i just want to point out tha tjust because someone is tight preflop and plays few hands does not mean they do not make moves once in the pot... i think this accurately characterizes jc, he def has soe moves in him and might use his tight image to take advantage. i 'm trying to give him a hand here and i'm surprised that he bet the size he did (not bigger). i'd have to have played with him more to get a sense of the dynamic, but i think this is closer than people are making it seem.

does he really value bet AK here? I can see AQ but otherwise it seems like (often) he's hoping you had KQ ish and will fold river, esp given how passively you played it and how tight he has been.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

for the people thinking im a bit paranoid that he may be opening up his 3betting range, when he bet the river, i kissed my chips goodbye, said "this is probably a bad call" and called. he showed KTo. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

[ QUOTE ]
why on earth would you folding ONE hand (a really bad one in terms of calling) make you assume he's gonna go all crazy on you? Just fold and see what develops in future hands instead, then you'll know for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Folding to a re raise once is not going to make him start doing it every time. As played though, ch/c the turn and fold the river.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

[ QUOTE ]
Haha, you and FV has turned me into a MONSTARR [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, stop tilting we want the old MDMA back !!

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

[ QUOTE ]
for the people thinking im a bit paranoid that he may be opening up his 3betting range, when he bet the river, i kissed my chips goodbye, said "this is probably a bad call" and called. he showed KTo.

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I think you would've saved 1600 on the river had you bet the 800, rather than called it on the turn.

Don't see how ch/c ch/f is an absolute better line than bet/fold turn or bet turn ch/f river.

Re: deepstack 25-50 hand vs jcmoussa
 

His line looks like AK to me. I can see him making this turn bet w/ lots of hands, but when he makes a small bet like that on the river it looks like he's put you on the correct hand and wants to extract value.

I dont think the turn call is bad- i'm sort of neutral about it, but I think folding the river is correct.

Preflop is close IMHO. Given that you're so deep I guess it's okay, but if JC is a great deep stack player I think your implied odds go way down, and then you're basically going to be taking the worst of it OOP.

I play a pretty close to the vest NLHE game, so my thoughts maybe a bit tight.


I dont understand the part about "i'm willing to coinflip for stacks" and then the part about "i cant see coinflipping for these stacks". WTF?



As played I'd lay down the river.


Sure, you can go into metagame arguement mode and find a reason not to fold, but in this example, i'd lay down on the river.


I assume he showed you a big ace if you called.