Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

At first I questioned whether or not this was just coincidence. However, my results playing live games vs playing online is like night and day. I'm thinking maybe I just can't read people as well online as I an in person. I dunno, its wierd. I'm considering never playing online again. Is this normal?

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

Online players are much better than live players, also you got lucky at live play. Long story short you probably aren't good at poker. Its harder to win when you aren't good.

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

I am in the same situation.

I just don't win online...

I really respect people that win online.

It is probably I am just not good at poker online and live.

What do all online winners do when playing online?

any tips?

thanks

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

The only explanation is you're not making the right choices, especially at critical moments. You either made a right choice or a wrong one, if you're losing online then you're not making the right choices online. I think live poker is the same [censored], just that you don't get as many hands, so if you win you win slower and if you lose you lose slower, but online you play more hands, you multitable, your loses multiply in size...

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

damn!

that makes sense!

so I am just not good enough or inexperienced?

how do I make right choices all the time?

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

There can be many factors. Live games you play 35 hands per hour, to get to the long run to see if youare REALLY a winner you need about 1400 hours of play.

Maybe live play you are on a streak. I played 6000 hands at -6BB/100 per hour, that would be 140 hours of constant losing if it was live play. I have also gone 400 hours of constant winning.

You are looking at the short run and really do not know how you are until you play at LEAST 50,000 hands.

Plus - online players are MUCH better!

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
how do I make right choices all the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's easy. Be correct.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

hey,

that was very funny.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

that is amazing that you need to play 50,000 hands to see if you are donkey or not.

Poker is hard.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

Why are online players so much better? Are you being sarcastic or are there reasons? I'm seriously interested. Please expound.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are online players so much better? Are you being sarcastic or are there reasons? I'm seriously interested. Please expound.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a tricky one buy here is my shot at it.

Online players generally have a lot more experience as far as number of hands played. And as an added bonus, they have gained this experience against other online players which is a slightly different game than a live game. I am going to say it is a little faster and looser since clicking a button to call or raise is easier than pulling chips out of a stack and having 10 other people looking at you while you're doing it.

As well, lots of players in casinos are simply non poker types who get tired of black jack or roulette and try to hit the jackpot at the poker tables. As well, there are players who show up at the casino who have played home poker and know the hand rankings and how to bluff, etc. But they think holdem is just another form of a home poker game play accordingly. Even better, they may have seen a few TV shows of holdem and combine that with their current knowledge and head to the casino to make some easy money.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are online players so much better? Are you being sarcastic or are there reasons? I'm seriously interested. Please expound.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a tricky one buy here is my shot at it.

Online players generally have a lot more experience as far as number of hands played. And as an added bonus, they have gained this experience against other online players which is a slightly different game than a live game. I am going to say it is a little faster and looser since clicking a button to call or raise is easier than pulling chips out of a stack and having 10 other people looking at you while you're doing it.

As well, lots of players in casinos are simply non poker types who get tired of black jack or roulette and try to hit the jackpot at the poker tables. As well, there are players who show up at the casino who have played home poker and know the hand rankings and how to bluff, etc. But they think holdem is just another form of a home poker game play accordingly. Even better, they may have seen a few TV shows of holdem and combine that with their current knowledge and head to the casino to make some easy money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. You also have to factor in that the good players are playing 6-12 tables-depending upon the game-so a minority of skilled players has a wide impact.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

I don't think online is looser - I think it is tighter actually but it depends on the limits and so forth.

Also - online players are there to play poker - not enjoy a beer with friends. They are alone (normally) and they are their to make money, not for entertainment.

The 50,000 hand comment is actually conservative. I have gone 12,000 hands at +6 Big Bets per 100 hands and I have gone 6000 at -6 big bets per 100 hands. It takes 50,000 hands to start to level the streaks out.

I really don't think that most live pleyers EVER get the the long run and that means that live games actually ARE all about the cards and not the player.

How many times have you gone to a casino and saw a complete idiot win pot after pot. That can happen for a long long time. Long run he will bust out, 100% guarenteed. Long run is for skill, short run is all luck.

Just a guess but I bet winning is 98% luck and 2% skill. But that 2% is VERY important for the long run and very very few people have it.

I have been playing online since 1999 almost every day and I know I'm good enough to continue to play without ever reloading the bank, yet, I go through streaks where I swear I have lost the touch. Nothing works and I guess wrong or make the wrong play over and over.

If I went through a streak like that when I started I would be playing CIV III right now and not poker.

Short run, it is all luck, long run, it's all skill.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
that is amazing that you need to play 50,000 hands to see if you are donkey or not.

Poker is hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, you should be able to know alot sooner than this. Especially if you've studied and shown that you understand the game and why you do certain things in some situations while doing something different in another.

b

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

bernie - while I agree in theory you really don't KNOW. I knew that after 10,000 hands in .5/1 and winning 7BB/100 that I had a clue.

I moved up to 1/2 and saw that while the game was a tad tighter it was still the same game, yet I was now losing.

I knew that the reason I was losing was not ME but bad cards so I moved up to 2/4 after 5000 hands. I knew I could beat the game.

HOWEVER - "knowing" you can win is different then actually proving to yourself that what you are thinking is correct.

Knowing the correct way to play poker is not the same as being able to handle your bankroll and not go on a mammoth tilt after not being dealt a hand to play for 500 hands.

A person can win at poker but that does not mean is a winning poker player in the long run as bankroll management comes into play.

did that make ANY sense?

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

The best way to know if you're good or bad in a short period of time is to post a bunch of hands in the appropriate forum and let others take a look at how you're playing. If you're playing well the money will follow, it's just a matter of time.

Also, the whole "in the short term it's 100% luck" stuff is BS. While the occasional fish has a good day playing every hand they're dealt, the majority of them hemorrhage money like crazy every day. Skills like saving a bet when you know you're beat, or earning an extra bet when you value bet on the river are critical to maximizing your profit, and these are skills you use every day.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

We frequently focus on accuracy of figures around here, but in this case I think a little more accuracy of language is needed.

Sure, it is possible to "know" you are a winner with far fewer hands than 100k* or whatever. The problem arises in that many people who are less studied, less well-read, less experienced, and/or less immersed in the culture will take all sorts of random things, usually very promising short-term results, to be an indicator that they are a winning player.

When folks in this thread have said "you can't know you're a winning player until you've played 1,000,000,000* hands," what they meant is "your results are not evidence that you are a wining player until you have a gazzillion* hands."



* Hand counts are only an estimate. Your results may vary.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

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"in the short term it's 100% luck" stuff is BS.

[/ QUOTE ] those extra bets you are talking about . . in LIMIT is MAYBE worth 0.50BB/100. IF that!

you show me a random 100 hands. The difference between a -6BB/100 player which is about as bad as a person can be and a solid player and I bet it'll be 50/50 on who wins the most money.

In fact - that sounds like a good simulation - I'll get back to you! I have no problem proving myself wrong.

I wonder how I should do this. A table of average players with one fish and one shark?

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

If you want to get better, keep a journal, every time you lose a hand, you remember what the other guy's showdown hand was and how he played the hand preflop and postflop and then make note of how you could have played YOUR hand to turn the outcome into a desirable one. You can do all this by yourself without posting anything on the forum. And the next time you start your poker session, quickly look through those things in point form to remind yourself NOT to do them.

Then you will improve.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

Because you think it's a penis.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its harder to win when you aren't good.



[/ QUOTE ]
haha

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to get better, keep a journal, every time you lose a hand, you remember what the other guy's showdown hand was and how he played the hand preflop and postflop and then make note of how you could have played YOUR hand to turn the outcome into a desirable one.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is being results oriented. You can often play a hand perfectly and still lose.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
HOWEVER - "knowing" you can win is different then actually proving to yourself that what you are thinking is correct.

Knowing the correct way to play poker is not the same as being able to handle your bankroll and not go on a mammoth tilt after not being dealt a hand to play for 500 hands.

A person can win at poker but that does not mean is a winning poker player in the long run as bankroll management comes into play.

did that make ANY sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

However part of 'knowing' is also knowing how to manage your BR, not just playing the hands. The game isn't just about chips and cards. However, it's less of a factor with a replenishable BR. ie...day job. But even then, some play above what a day job can supplement.

The thing about 'you really don't KNOW' is psychological. This is where part of 'believing' in the long run comes in(assuming you 'are' playing a winning game). Getting beat after beat after beat while taking the best of it, you have to buy in that it will eventually work itself out. The numbers prove it. It's just a matter of it turning around*.

So, yes, winning poker isn't just playing 'correct' poker a few times, then changing it up because you're running bad so now you don't raise AA with 5 limpers to you because you're afraid of losing again. Yes, that's also part of it.

This is why it's easy to talk about bad swings, but until you realy go through it, you don't really know just how it can affect you.

But if you're watching your opponents make mistake after mistake, mistakes you're not making, mistakes you can actually figure an amount they're losing per hour doing it, then it's just a matter of time when it catches up to them. Some repeated mistakes can take longer to catch up. But if you can recognize the gap in knowing the concepts, you're that much more ahead of your opponents. Then it's just a matter of being ahead enough to beat the rake.

If you can justify, with solid theory behind it, every move you make and why you make it, whether it's +/- EV, you know it. In the old days, many of us old gaurd talked about a 'clicking' that sort of happened. We didn't have PT for stats, or even online games.

*I like to use casino's pit games as examples(primarily because I see alot of playing as prop bets within the hand itself). Is anyone telling a casino that they might not be winning at craps because someone is on a huge, hot roll? Do they change the way they play to compensate? No. Because there is no psychological crap to deal with. It's been mathematically proven. They know that if someone repeatedly puts their money in with the worst of it they'll lose. In relation, many poker players would adjust their game. ie...The AA example above.

Make sense?

b

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem arises in that many people who are less studied, less well-read, less experienced, and/or less immersed in the culture will take all sorts of random things, usually very promising short-term results, to be an indicator that they are a winning player.


[/ QUOTE ]

We see this regularly on here. Someone coming on and saying how they have it all figured out while everyone sees gaping holes in his thinking in his 'I'm great' post. 6 months(or sooner) we then get the follow-up post that it's impossible to beat loose games. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

This is where the strat forums really come in. There you have to prove your ideas beyond just that you played a hand and because you won(bucking the odds), it was the right play. You get called on your sh*t pretty quick.

This is also why many times you don't even have to see a guy play a hand, instead, just talk to him for about 1/2 hour and you can get a good idea as to his skill level.

b

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"in the short term it's 100% luck" stuff is BS.

[/ QUOTE ] those extra bets you are talking about . . in LIMIT is MAYBE worth 0.50BB/100. IF that!



[/ QUOTE ]

They could be worth a bit more if you compound it with other players regularly NOT making those extra bets.

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you show me a random 100 hands. The difference between a -6BB/100 player which is about as bad as a person can be and a solid player and I bet it'll be 50/50 on who wins the most money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Solid player. Easily.

You really don't think it's 50-50, do you? Hell,the odds aren't even 1-1 on the bad plays the losing player is making.

b

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to get better, keep a journal, every time you lose a hand, you remember what the other guy's showdown hand was and how he played the hand preflop and postflop and then make note of how you could have played YOUR hand to turn the outcome into a desirable one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should probably keep a journal of winning hands too.

But what if you were just doomed to lose the hand?

Just because you lose a hand doesn't mean you played it wrong. Just as winning a hand doesn't mean you played it right. Which is why the result doesn't matter.

As an example, you let a guy bet his 2 outer on the turn in a small pot and instead of raising him you call because a raise would make him fold and he'd likely fire again on the river. So you call and he catches to beat you. Should you have then raised instead of called? No. Even though, if you raised, you'd have won the pot.

b

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are online players so much better? Are you being sarcastic or are there reasons? I'm seriously interested. Please expound.

[/ QUOTE ]

I look at it a little differently, why are live players so much worse?

Well, a live player has to go through a major ordeal compared to an online player just to play. Shower, put on clothes, drive to the poker room, deal with parking, stand in line to get on the wait list, wait, and then only see 35 hands per hour.

Not many people do this just to go fold a bunch of hands, they want to play!

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"in the short term it's 100% luck" stuff is BS.

[/ QUOTE ] those extra bets you are talking about . . in LIMIT is MAYBE worth 0.50BB/100. IF that!

[/ QUOTE ]

No I definately do not agree. If I play 100 hands and then go through them one by one w/ PT, there's almost certainly SEVERAL spots where I see that I should have saved or gained a bet by playing better. Maybe you play so well that there are no such spots for you, but I doubt it.

This is certainly well hidden since a 100 hands session result is usually something between -25BB and +25BB and the few bets you had "control over" seem insignificant. But they are there, and after you have played 10 000 hands those are the ones that really count.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

While I do agree I don't know exactly how good I am yet, I do beleive that I play better live than online. Also, I'm not claiming to be very good at poker. I like to beleive that I am, but I am keeping an open mind about it.

I don't know why, but I tend to make more and dumber mistakes online. Maybe its something psychological. For some reason I don't respect people online. It may be because I can't see them.

As far as how much I've played live, I really don't know how many hours/hands I have played. Here is my log for live play:

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4757/logbe9.jpg

I didn't start keeping a log until the first date shown. I played a good bit before then, but it was mostly LL ($4-8). Webster mentioned above that you play about 35 hands live. While I don't doubt his estimate, it seems to me like I play less than that. At the tables I play, I'd guess its around 25-30, but I could be wrong. With that said, each of the sessions in my log avg about 4 hours. So if you calculate that up, it comes out to about a little over 2500 hands (21x4x30).

There really isn't any need to post an online log, because even if I did post one, it would show all losses. Luckily I don't play online nearly as much as I do live.

Another issue I have online is I don't cash out after every session like I do at the casino. These seems to have an effect, knowing that its all right there at the click of a mouse, and I don't have to actually pull it out of my wallet or the ATM.

For a while, I stopped playing online completely. Recently I played again only to realize I shouldn't, which is what sparked me to make this thread. I also didn't realize that the competition was actually stiffer online. Thanks for your replies.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

What limits/games are you comparing online vs live? I am less patient playing online, so I limit the # of hands I will play in a single session.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

I try to play the same thing online. Although sometimes I may move down just a little bit, maybe to $0.50-1NL.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

Here is my shot. You really can't make a living at any limit up to 15-30 live. However, you can do very well at lower limits on line. So, while you will hardly ever encounter a pro playing up to 10-20 live, they are all over on line at the lower limits.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

MHO is the skillset of the avg. 1-2 NL player online is much higher than the skillset of the avg. 1-2 player in a live game, probally around 10x (I believe it gets lower after 1-2, probally like 3x for 10-20 & less the more it goes up in limits). It makes sense if you think about it, hell with rakeback a talented 1-2 player online could make a 6 figure a year salary+ clicking their mouse 40hrs or so a week (maybe less). I do not believe this is so in live poker, 1 tabling/30-40 hands an hour does not even come close to 8+ tabling/500+ hands an hour in terms of EV.

In conclusion: Move down, improve, post confusing hands in the appropiate forum, review play with pokertracker, become a provin winner at your current level (100k hands?), practice quality bankroll management, run good, move up, move up, move up, dominate HSNL, play all the balla's HU and take their rolls, buy things you don't need for ungodly amounts of money [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hope I helped

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

I think the base issue is that the recreational/bad player typically plays the lowest limits available. At a casino this is 1-2NL. Online it is 1c-2c NL.

For limit, I am a break-even player at 3/6 online. I've played 10/20 live and been the best player at the table. You'll find many other posts saying the same thing.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the base issue is that the recreational/bad player typically plays the lowest limits available. At a casino this is 1-2NL. Online it is 1c-2c NL.

For limit, I am a break-even player at 3/6 online. I've played 10/20 live and been the best player at the table. You'll find many other posts saying the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is actually one thing that I had in my head.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

I personally seem to do better in the 500 euro buy in NL games at my local casino (the smallest game available - where oer a small sample I am a winning player), that my 1-2 online NL games where I am a losing player. It's strange, as my live play seems to be bankrolling my online play!

I seem to bring my A game to the table live most of the time, and i find it very interesting watching the people around me and observing. I get in a zone. I put all the theory I have been reading into practice, I can play very tight OOP and remain patient. I have not been playing poker very long, but when I am playing like this, I know that I have the potential to become a really good player. I am not there yet, but am able to identify and avoid tangling with the better players out of position and extract money from the fish, and use my tight image selectively to steal pots.

Playing online, I just get bored and distracted. I have these enormous tilt sessions where I start out playing tight, but get bored or take a bad beat and then I blow most of my roll overplaying big PP's and making silly bluffs, not really focussed, reading emails, surfing the web etc. It's horrible and almost compulsive, and the shame is when I am focussed I feel I can beat the game online, and that I am learning all the time.

Aside from distractions, a big factor I think has also been moving up beyond my roll to clear bonuses. I am net down bonus chasing through this, and have now vowed not to chase another bonus beyond my means.

At the moment I am considering setting up a separate PC, without a internet browser, email etc to play poker on so that I have no distractions.

It's very frustrating at the moment, as after 18 months of spending most of my spare time playing, reading, thinking, and a large investment in time and money (blown bankrolls, books etc) I feel that it is only me that is stopping me becoming a winning player online.

Can anyone relate to this experience?

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is my shot. You really can't make a living at any limit up to 15-30 live. However, you can do very well at lower limits on line. So, while you will hardly ever encounter a pro playing up to 10-20 live, they are all over on line at the lower limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can make a living playinng 15/30 live and lower. Even with a high rake. I don't know what kind of living you guys are used to but a 15/30 pro. can make more than in most mid. level jobs. Is 60K/yr. not good anymore? Sure we would all love to make 150K but that doesn't mean it's not impossible to support yourself this way. I'd much rather play 15/30 than sell couches. Heck, I've seen young pro's earn a living playing live 3/6 while they built up.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

When I first started playing online I would have a few days where I would win follwed by more where I lost.

When I was winning it was because I was a naturally awesome player and had learned everything there was to learn about poker in a week [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

When I lost it was because the sites were rigged [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

LOL Looking back I realise that I didn't have a clue what I was doing at first and it really was luck that I had any winning days at all!

Statistically it does take many thousands of hands before you get a realistic impression of how good someone is, but as has been said a faster way of figuring out how good you are is to review the hands that you have played and pick out where you went right or wrong.
Obviously if you really dont know what you are doing then you wont be able to recognise what you are doing wrong so post your hands in the strat forums here and let others pick your game apart.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is my shot. You really can't make a living at any limit up to 15-30 live. However, you can do very well at lower limits on line. So, while you will hardly ever encounter a pro playing up to 10-20 live, they are all over on line at the lower limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play 4/8 live and win 2 BB/hr, that's $16/hr. That's 3x minimum wage. That's more money per hr than PLENTY of people make working 40 hrs. a week.

Re: Why do I suck at online Hold Em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you play 4/8 live and win 2 BB/hr, that's $16/hr. That's 3x minimum wage. That's more money per hr than PLENTY of people make working 40 hrs. a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

At "good" tables you'll be seeing 25 hands an hour. If you can beat a game for 8BB/100 after accounting for an enormous rake and have played enough hands at those stakes to verify it, something is wrong.