($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

Villian was one of the very few clueful lags I see in SnGs. I'm not sure his style was the best but I thought he was playing very well for an aggro player.

edit: I think there are 3 reasonable lines here. please try to comment on each of them in your replies:

1) call pre, c/c, c/c, c/f; cons to this: he may put us on OESD that whiffed and try to push us off the best hand on river with ace high
2) call pre, c/r flop, fold to allin; cons to this: if he just calls what are you doing oop on the turn?
3) reraise pre, fold to allin: cons to this: we sometimes fold the best hand to AK or AQ or TT, also what do we do if he just calls on this board? stick it in?

edit2: another line:

4) lead flop, fold to a raise. question: what's turn plan if called?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

MP (t652)
Button (t1290)
SB (t1715)
Hero (t4268)
UTG (t5575)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t300</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls t250, Hero calls t200.

Flop: (t900) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t600</font>, SB folds, Hero calls t600.

Turn: (t2100) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t1000</font>, Hero calls t1000.

River: (t4100) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks expecting a check behind, but planning to fold.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

Interesting hand, I'll just comment on the river.

I think a clueful villain will bet/push the river if he has a house, or, as a bluff if he has nothing (trying to get Hero to fold a T, 99 or JJ). It's probably close, but I think villain will be bluffing often enough that Hero should call the river, despite putting his stack on the line.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

curious, why not raise the flop, or moreso shove the turn?

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

I raise the flop. Stack sizes make this hand soooo friggin awkward though.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

I'm c/r the flop and holding my breath if this guy is truly LAG.

Are you just calling the flop bet because villian bet the flop into you and the short stack sb?

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

D,

It appears that you believe your overpair is good preflop. (That he doesn't have QQ+.)

Why not just shove preflop? Would he call AK/AQ?

Even if not...I can't decide - tho I'm not sure I like the line for the hand given the growing pot size and stack sizes.

I like the 'value' line, tho...I dunno...

I'm gonna think on it...

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

Shove 4k into a 1k pot with the big stack in it?

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

Three betting preflop is certainly an option.
As played lead the turn or bet fold the river.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

D,

Would you also shutdown if the river was a A, K or Q?

What if its a 9? or 6?


I think I like the hand up until the turn. Too many scare cards on the river, and really you probably have the best hand at that point often enough.

I think the turn - you either have to fold, or if you're going to check into him 'for value' you need to c/r AI.

The villian could put you on OESD and bet the turn with a lot of air here, IMHO and you're probably good moresothan not.


Tho I can see/understand not wanting to broke on the hand and thus cold-calling the turn - but ... yeah...I just dunno man.

I'm still not sure, but I think you have to make up your mind on the turn and play accordingly there.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

I make raise to 1200 pf. With the intention of folding to a shove. There is a lot of dead money in the middle and you likely have the best hand however due to the deepness of stacks it gives you a chance to get away if he has an overpair. Sometimes he will shove AK and you will fold the best hand but this seems like a good line to take.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shove 4k into a 1k pot with the big stack in it?

[/ QUOTE ]

15% of our stack in the center, and its not like there is an amount we can RR to that outprices UTG's low-end range and still allows us to play postflop poker.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
I make raise to 1200 pf. With the intention of folding to a shove. There is a lot of dead money in the middle and you likely have the best hand however due to the deepness of stacks it gives you a chance to get away if he has an overpair. Sometimes he will shove AK and you will fold the best hand but this seems like a good line to take.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't villian have 2:1 preflop?

As a LAGgy CL w/position on the hand wouldn't he call a wide range here?

I like you're line if he'd fold or push, but I think him cold-calling is a fairly good possibility here.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

Interesting hand due to stack sizes &amp; LAG bigstack.

I don't really like the c/c, c/c, c/f line on a coordinated board like this. It makes it too easy for a good LAG player to keep firing. He may feel like there's too good of a chance you're calling with the oesd. I would c/r the flop to 1600, then fold to a push. I don't think villain will push a worse hand unless he has the oesd himself. Folding to villain's push would leave you in 2nd with almost 2400 and 3 shorties at 1400 and less.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting hand due to stack sizes &amp; LAG bigstack.

I don't really like the c/c, c/c, c/f line on a coordinated board like this. It makes it too easy for a good LAG player to keep firing. He may feel like there's too good of a chance you're calling with the oesd. I would c/r the flop to 1600, then fold to a push. I don't think villain will push a worse hand unless he has the oesd himself. Folding to villain's push would leave you in 2nd with almost 2400 and 3 shorties at 1400 and less.

[/ QUOTE ]


disagree

you're giving villian 3:1 on the call, and I think the move is also faily transparant. A clueful LAG would see through this and overshove A9, K9, maybe even more. (air, etc...)

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

to everyone who says why i didn't play this hand more aggressively, the answer is he and i have all the chips. so I wanted to play it carefully.

That doesn't mean a flop c/r isn't wrong, or a reraise preflop, but c/r shove the turn is awful (imo).

Also, I was very confident that he would not valuebet AT on the river. He's a GOOD lag, not a lagTARD.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

No way villain is shoving air against hero's c/r. Why would he do that against the only other stack that could truly hurt him? Like I said the worst hand he shoves with is the oesd. Every other hand he shoves will be way ahead. If he's a good lag like durron said, he's folding AT &amp; at least thinking about folding QQ-AA.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

i really think there are 3 reasonable lines here:

1) call pre, c/c, c/c, c/f; cons to this: he may put us on OESD that whiffed and try to push us off the best hand on river with ace high
2) call pre, c/r flop, fold to allin; cons to this: if he just calls what are you doing oop on the turn?
3) reraise pre, fold to allin: cons to this: we sometimes fold the best hand to AK or AQ or TT, also what do we do if he just calls on this board? stick it in?

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting hand due to stack sizes &amp; LAG bigstack.

I don't really like the c/c, c/c, c/f line on a coordinated board like this. It makes it too easy for a good LAG player to keep firing. He may feel like there's too good of a chance you're calling with the oesd. I would c/r the flop to 1600, then fold to a push. I don't think villain will push a worse hand unless he has the oesd himself. Folding to villain's push would leave you in 2nd with almost 2400 and 3 shorties at 1400 and less.

[/ QUOTE ]


disagree

you're giving villian 3:1 on the call, and I think the move is also faily transparant. A clueful LAG would see through this and overshove A9, K9, maybe even more. (air, etc...)

[/ QUOTE ]
Snarf,
This play is not transparent at all seeing how it is the exact same way I play aa and kk.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting hand due to stack sizes &amp; LAG bigstack.

I don't really like the c/c, c/c, c/f line on a coordinated board like this. It makes it too easy for a good LAG player to keep firing. He may feel like there's too good of a chance you're calling with the oesd. I would c/r the flop to 1600, then fold to a push. I don't think villain will push a worse hand unless he has the oesd himself. Folding to villain's push would leave you in 2nd with almost 2400 and 3 shorties at 1400 and less.

[/ QUOTE ]


disagree

you're giving villian 3:1 on the call, and I think the move is also faily transparant. A clueful LAG would see through this and overshove A9, K9, maybe even more. (air, etc...)

[/ QUOTE ]
Snarf,
This play is not transparent at all seeing how it is the exact same way I play aa and kk.

[/ QUOTE ]


you'd coldcall AA/KK after one caller already?

w/out the SB caling in I'd change my mind about my own post.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

Does anyone this board ever bet/fold?

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone this board ever bet/fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

bet folding this river sucks ass, look at the size of the pot on the river

edit: bet-folding the flop is interesting

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone this board ever bet/fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

bet folding this river sucks ass, look at the size of the pot on the river

edit: bet-folding the flop is interesting

[/ QUOTE ]

There are other streets.
I don't mind bet folding this flop as much since it is a three way pot. Villian is less likely to c-bet with air.
That being said c/c c/c c/f makes your hand look much weaker than it actually is.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

I think if you are going to bet a fold a street it's the turn, this is because the flop you probably have 6 outs and don't want to bloat the pot so you don't get a chance to hit them.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]

2) call pre, c/r flop, fold to allin; cons to this: if he just calls what are you doing oop on the turn?


[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see him just calling on this board with QQ-AA, or even a set for that matter. The only hand I think he calls with would be the oesd (we are giving him 3:1). If he flat calls I push the turn unless it's a 6 (lol, what if it's a J? Then I'm really lost. . . I don't know if I could check/fold top set there). An A or K would also make the turn a tough decision.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

Given stack sizes, I would reraise pot on the flop and push good turns like this one.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

I would bet this flop.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet this flop


[/ QUOTE ]
As villain, I raise a flop lead with air. A flop lead almost always means "I think my hand is good, but I will fold if you convince me to"

I'm assuming your plan would be to lead the flop &amp; fold to a raise?

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

this hand is played perfectly and i wish i could play this good all the time

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone this board ever bet/fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the dude is laggy enough, I prefer to let him try and make a move. It does mean that I don't extract as much from a T, but the guy is probably capable of three barrelling with nothing. So I don't love the bet/fold on the river.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]

Does anyone this board ever bet/fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
This should read does anyone on this forum ever bet/fold?

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would bet this flop


[/ QUOTE ]
As villain, I raise a flop lead with air. A flop lead almost always means "I think my hand is good, but I will fold if you convince me to"

[/ QUOTE ]
That is horrible spew in multiway raised pots. In Button vs Blind HU pot I also often raise leads with air, but if you are UTG in this hand and would raise durrons lead with air you are leaking all over the place. How do you know SB wasn't going for a CR?

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

if i played like you pf, and thats an option, i would play the flop the same and lead the turn.

i often would reraise pf and c-bet the flop and then shut down.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

This isn't the line I'd take personally but I guess I'm just not as passive with my JJ when I get an under board.
My opinion on your three options:
1 - don't call pre-flop if this is your line - you're not getting odds to flop a set
2 - this is an interesting line - if the player is truly LAG then I like it but I think this line makes you want to commit more to this pot than you really want to - I'd rather open on the flop given the stack sizes
3 - I'd do this sometimes and call/flop bet other times - if he just calls your raise, you're in a more interesting position because then you're more likely to push this flop - I'd rather not be all-in with these stack sizes given that we're on the bubble and the shorties are pretty low.

I like being more straight forward and call pf and bet the flop - fold to an all-in and push to a raise. You've still got 6 outs for the definite best hand if you're called and he's likely got overs so he's got six outs and you've got six re-draws - I like those odds (75% to win against overs) and he probably calls your push with a ten as well which you're 81% to beat. But then again, I don't try to get to fancy in this spot.

G

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

I can't really comment on all three scenarios, but I really like reraising preflop to 1000 and c-betting flop.

Having just called preflop, I definitely lead into the raiser.

On the turn, having chk./called flop, I like leading.

I just think you have taken way too passive of a line with JJ against an aggro opponent with 43 BBs.

River I like the check, but am not sure what to do if he shoves.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

betting flops seems like the cheapest way to find out if he has AK or QQ+

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do you know SB wasn't going for a CR?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, we don't "know" anything. If we did, this game would be easy. Raising with air as villain here is definitely not spewing. It's a common response for me and it works very often. Think about it from Hero's point of view.

Of course now I'm veering away from the OP. But my point was that a good lag may raise a flop lead from Hero.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would bet this flop


[/ QUOTE ]
As villain, I raise a flop lead with air. A flop lead almost always means "I think my hand is good, but I will fold if you convince me to"

I'm assuming your plan would be to lead the flop &amp; fold to a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

My plan is that the villain isn't Phil Ivey and will usually fold if they have nothing. I don't want to get involved in a large pot in this semi bubble situation.

btw raising with air is extremely dangerous here. I would definitely make this same play with a set, as the board is super coordinated and I'm going to give any free cards here. If I have 888, I'm sorry but I'm not folding. Actually the range of hands I could have after betting out, as a whole, would almost surely make raising with air extremely -EV.

Honestly how many hands do you think Im just leading here? I check raise with almost nothing that I plan to play on a board like this here, because I don't want to give free cards on the bubble on a draw heavy board.

I know its not technically the bubble, but its pretty close.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would bet this flop


[/ QUOTE ]
As villain, I raise a flop lead with air. A flop lead almost always means "I think my hand is good, but I will fold if you convince me to"

I'm assuming your plan would be to lead the flop &amp; fold to a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
Please keep making this play.

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

curtains, let's say you lead the flop and get flat called. what are you doing on the turn?

Re: ($60 Turbo) ryanghall inspired me to post this JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would bet this flop


[/ QUOTE ]
As villain, I raise a flop lead with air. A flop lead almost always means "I think my hand is good, but I will fold if you convince me to"

I'm assuming your plan would be to lead the flop &amp; fold to a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

My plan is that the villain isn't Phil Ivey and will usually fold if they have nothing. I don't want to get involved in a large pot in this semi bubble situation.

btw raising with air is extremely dangerous here. I would definitely make this same play with a set, as the board is super coordinated and I'm going to give any free cards here. If I have 888, I'm sorry but I'm not folding. Actually the range of hands I could have after betting out, as a whole, would almost surely make raising with air extremely -EV.

Honestly how many hands do you think Im just leading here? I check raise with almost nothing that I plan to play on a board like this here, because I don't want to give free cards on the bubble on a draw heavy board.

I know its not technically the bubble, but its pretty close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains,
You say that raising with air is extremely dangerous here. It really isn't that dangerous when you consider the worse case scenario, which is getting reraised. If so, I fold my bluff &amp; still have 3600 chips. I would not make that raise if I couldn't fold comfortably.

You ask me what hands do I think you're leading with here. . . well I play you (or any regular) differently than a random SNG'r. I could not see you lead any hand that you would fold except for JJ. Obviously if your leading range is JJ/TT/88/77, I'm not making that play. I know that you're not calling PF w/ a hand like AT/KT. Believe me. . . against a random player, a flop lead is a hand like A7/A8/AT very often. And they will c/r their sets &amp; 2pr hands.