It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ....
 

It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to create a universe in which any other being has free-will.

Here is the argument. (I came up with this a while back, but it may well be some standard argument known to philosophers. If it is, could some philosopher post a reference.)

An omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) god has complete knowledge of everything that happens, everywhere, at all times (past present, future) in everything that exists, and moreover, fully comprehends instantly and permanently the entirety of all possible universes with comprehensive knowledge of every detail of everything in every possible universe. An omniscient (all-knowing) god, by definition, must know everything about everything, and in particular, they must know everything about anything they create and about any choice they make. When an omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) god creates a universe they must know everything about it, and hence they exactly which of the posible universes it is. So for an omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) god, creating a universe means simply choosing one from the list of all possible universes, which automatically means choosing every detail of that universe. Obviously that means for any other being that finds themselves living in such a universe, they never get to choose anything because the omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) god already chose absolutely every detail of everything that happens in that universe.

Therefore it is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to create a universe in which any other being has free-will. QED

What are the consequences of this. Well, for anyone who believes in omniscient, omnipotent god, such as the christian god, or anything remotely similar, the existence of such a god must logically imply that there is no free will, so that morality becomes meaningless, consciousness becomes pointless, and that generally the universe is utterly without purpose or meaning.

By contrast, as an atheist, I can logically choose to believe in free will, I can meaningfully contemplate moral questions and can explore consciousness and can find purpose and meaning to the universe.

Let's do a survey. Here are the options.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

There was a good scifi book, Neverness, that explored stuff like this.

One scene was about free will and how you could still want to do something that you have little choice about.

The sequels were written later and not as good by far imo.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ....
 

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Therefore it is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to create a universe in which any other being has free-will. QED

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Hold on. It is my understanding that there is a reciprocal process taking place between God and man, where what we are is a process of realization to God. Through man God continually actualizes deeper aspects of His being.

What I interpret as the infinite good of God, is more or less, the infinite potential for good. Take love for example. Love must be volitional or it has no meaning at all, it would simply be a mechanism. So if God is to realize the reality of love, it can only be by relation to some being which has the power or free-will to withhold love.

In my mind it's a similiar process to the way we deal with the laws of nature. Within them is simply potential, until that potential becomes actualized through our understanding of their nature.

So in my mind the existence of a benevolent loving God wouldn't make a being with free-will illogical - it would make one a necessity.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

You forgot this in your poll:

I am an atheist/agnostic and any worldview I can even articulate is utterly, hopelessly, irredeemably unintelligible and indefensible.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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Therefore it is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to create a universe in which any other being has free-will. QED

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Hold on. It is my understanding that there is a reciprocal process taking place between God and man, where what we are is a process of realization to God. Through man God continually actualizes deeper aspects of His being.

What I interpret as the infinite good of God, is more or less, the infinite potential for good. Take love for example. Love must be volitional or it has no meaning at all, it would simply be a mechanism. So if God is to realize the reality of love, it can only be by relation to some being which has the power or free-will to withhold love.

In my mind it's a similiar process to the way we deal with the laws of nature. Within them is simply potential, until that potential becomes actualized through our understanding of their nature.

So in my mind the existence of a benevolent loving God wouldn't make a being with free-will illogical - it would make one a necessity.

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Here is some logic.

Consider the two statements:

(1) The existence of an entity with property A implies that C is false.

(2) The existence of an entity with property B implies that C is true.

These two statements together imply that an entity with both properties A and B does not exist.

My argument combined with your argument shows that the god you believe in does not exist.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

why would an omniscient god know what I'm going to do in the future? if you think he could know that, then your definition of free will is going to be one that isn't going to cause the problems you think it does. Specifically we can look at two concepts of freedom

Strong freedom ( X is strongly free if in situation A he can P or not P) if this is true, then God doesn't know about future situations because there's simply no fact of the matter about what X will do in the future, and God only knows all true propositions or all facts/

Weak freedom (had X chosen to not P in situation A, he would have: usually broadly defined as being the causal seat of one's actions.) if this is the conception that you have of freedom, there's no problem yet again as one can be free even though god knew in advance what they would choose.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

oh also, please read a minimum of one essay on the topic of freedom by a decent philosopher (two would be even better) before you start spouting off nonsense.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ....
 

This is false for many reasons. Determinism and free will aren't mutually exclusive. Specific knowledge of the future only invalidates free will if it has effects that are universally "random" (and there's no reason to make such an assumption at a cosmological level). An omniscient God might not have specific knowledge of the future anyhow.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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You forgot this in your poll:

I am an atheist/agnostic and any worldview I can even articulate is utterly, hopelessly, irredeemably unintelligible and indefensible.

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Ooh, I'm sure that would have got a lot of takers.

Can we have one for Christians too?

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ....
 

"omniscient, omnipotent" is a title not a discription.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

OP,

Omniscience and omnipotence is not grounds to rule out free will. It is possible for such an entity to set conditions in which the variables can choose their own paths. The choices you make shape your worldview. Free will is having the ability to shape worldviews.

It would seem there is a blur in many thinkers about the distinctions between predestination and free will.

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So in my mind the existence of a benevolent loving God wouldn't make a being with free-will illogical - it would make one a necessity.

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Exactly. He can only be benevolent if he allows you to make your own choices.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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You forgot this in your poll:

I am an atheist/agnostic and any worldview I can even articulate is utterly, hopelessly, irredeemably unintelligible and indefensible.

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Btw, why have you not ticked "I am a christian/jew/muslim and I am incapable of rational thought."?

Because that is precisely what you keep insisting on in your posts.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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Btw, why have you not ticked "I am a christian/jew/muslim and I am incapable of rational thought."?


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I'm waiting for the new poll including my suggestion with your vote.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

Thread summary so far:

No-one has raised any serious objections to my argument.

No-one has raised any serious objections to my poll.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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Thread summary so far:

No-one has raised any serious objections to my argument.

No-one has raised any serious objections to my poll.

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Good read there. Got 'em blinkers on, huh?

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

FortunaMaximus says:

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Thread summary so far:

No-one has raised any serious objections to my argument.

No-one has raised any serious objections to my poll.

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Good read there. Got 'em blinkers on, huh?

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One problem you have "FortunaMaximus" is that you seem unable to distinguish between `If A Then B' and `If B Then A'.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

Please add the option "All hail the mighty collapser of wave functions!"

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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Please add the option "All hail the mighty collapser of wave functions!"

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LOL

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ....
 

Your attributes of "G" only refer to power. Power and some say "evil" is the forcing one's personality on another. You posit "evil" and say this is "good". Love, virtue,grace, and even intelligence is left out of your equation. I deny your premise.

Yes, there are Christians in philosophy and theology and in everyday life who have no problem with "free will"(read Catholic Church and others).

Your one-sided behemoth needs a little love.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

You are wrong. Even the atheists are saying so. Pick up a clue, stop insulting everyone, and approach the points.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ....
 

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I am a christian/jew/muslim and I am incapable of rational thought.

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rofl..

although this is funny and I agree..

why would you put this in a post that is meant to be serious...if you wanted actual argument in this thread, you shouldn't have put this in there.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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Thread summary so far:

No-one has raised any serious objections to my argument.

No-one has raised any serious objections to my poll.

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I'm still waiting for your answer to me.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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FortunaMaximus says:

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Thread summary so far:

No-one has raised any serious objections to my argument.

No-one has raised any serious objections to my poll.

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Good read there. Got 'em blinkers on, huh?

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One problem you have "FortunaMaximus" is that you seem unable to distinguish between `If A Then B' and `If B Then A'.

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And you're an ordinary numbers cruncher who cannot appreciate that neither the theists or atheists here who are capable of thought and rational discourse have bothered to contest your weakly self-biased poll on emotional grounds and they have provided reasonable, good arguments why your argument has flaws.

And when faced with such, what have you countered with? Hmm. Not a lot, really. Kind like a toddler's tantrum, "I'm right and you're wrong, nyaaaah..."

Laughable.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ....
 

What you say is correct, but just because there is no evidence for this God, doesn't mean the universe isn't deterministic or partially deterministic.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ....
 

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Determinism and free will aren't mutually exclusive.

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I think they are.

Anyway, free will is a mystical belief. "Choice not influenced by external factors"? Please.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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So for an omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) god, creating a universe means simply choosing one from the list of all possible universes, which automatically means choosing every detail of that universe. Obviously that means for any other being that finds themselves living in such a universe, they never get to choose anything because the omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) god already chose absolutely every detail of everything that happens in that universe.

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Haven't read anything but the OP, but this is where you're wrong IMO. God(or whatever you want to call it) created all possible universes, and we are the one's choosing which one of those to experience, not the other way around(God choosing which one we are experiencing). Not sure if this makes sense to you but it does to me.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

I'll give a try at redefining that, Morrek. In a multiverse built on quantum probabilistic functions, in theory, all significant Universes exist concurrently in a steady state, and your choices through this determine which of the Universes you reside in until the next if-then fork.

There are an infinite set of choices that lead up to your current state, and an infinite set of choices leading away from this state.

As for determining which specific Universe you're in, I think a comparable analogy to grayscale used in photography might be applicable here. Gray is gray and there are many different shades of gray, but it's still the same fundamental color using both black and white. Only for Universes, there are an infinite number of scales, and in an infinite number, the finite set distinguishing similar but not identical Universes may as well be perceptually infinite anyway to h. sap.

And in such a worldview, even God is reduced to another factor in the process, or he/she is the glue holding all those processes together. He or She may not have a clue how to stop the internal processes either, and maybe that's the point. Might be as curious as we are to see what results out of such an experiment.

Have the Chicken Caesar instead and a few galaxies aren't present in this Universe. How're we to tell the difference?

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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And in such a worldview, even God is reduced to another factor in the process, or he/she is the glue holding all those processes together. He or She may not have a clue how to stop the internal processes either, and maybe that's the point. Might be as curious as we are to see what results out of such an experiment.

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This would not be an omniscient omnipotent god, and so this could not provide a counterexample to my argument. So what exactly is your objection to my original argument?

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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Thread summary so far:

No-one has raised any serious objections to my argument.

No-one has raised any serious objections to my poll.

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I'm still waiting for your answer to me.

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What you need to realize "snowden719" is that `If A Then B' is logically equivalent to `If not B Then not A'.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

what on earth are you talking about??? First off, that's obvious. Second, none of my arguments nor yours require it.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

I didn't say he was omniscient or omnipotent. At the outset, the entity may have been, and the experiment has evolved to the point that those two factors now have an element of uncertainity. He may still be omniscient, but I think there is reason to doubt his omnipotence.

And my problem lies with your approach and your efforts to counter the arguments of theists and atheists alike. In this thread, you've done little more than rabblerousing, and that shows an inherent lack of both class and willingness to explore the arguments of others.

Whatever your reasoning for creating the poll, you cannot help but introduce a bias favoring atheists, and in doing so, you have created a reaction where both theists and atheists have found reason to devalue your original poll and in turn, arguments as insufficient for the scope of a rational discussion on pure merits.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ....
 

For an omniscient, omnipotent god, nothing is impossible, so therefore without reading your post, I can say that the answer is no.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ....
 

The very idea of applying logic to an omniscient, omnipotent god seems silly to me. Logically, any such god must transcend logic.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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This is false for many reasons. Determinism and free will aren't mutually exclusive.

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Yes, they are.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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The very idea of applying logic to an omniscient, omnipotent god seems silly to me. Logically, any such god must transcend logic.

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And WHY would a God say 'I'm gonna make something that can't rationally determine I exist'? Wait... I know... I'm gonna make something, that BY DEFINITION means they can't logically determine I exist, and yet make that one of the mot important attributes of the species (besides the opposable thumb).

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

You're right. Hume was just a donkey.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

OP, I was going to bring up the point that free will is the ability to choose how to react to external circumstances, and not relevant to the circumstances themselves... but perhaps I am misunderstanding your post. Are you saying that because a omniscient, omnipotent creator would know what characteristics that they were giving a person, then they would also be choosing how that person would respond to circumstances in the future? If so, then that is a good point and one that I had not previously considered.

Oh, and I am a christian/jew/muslim attempting rational thought, and occasionally failing miserably. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

God being omniscient just means he already knows how he's going to exert his omnipotence. It's true that it's impossible to see the future and then be able to change it. Demanding that God be able to do so would be similar to demanding that he be able to make a square circle.

Omnipotence doesn't mean you're able to do anything that can be written in a sentence (i.e. make a square circle). Just because you can put nonsense into a sentence doesn't mean that omnipotence isn't possible for God.

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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It's true that it's impossible to see the future and then be able to change it.

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No. Or rather, only in a relatively limited sense. In that sense I'd use terms like "It's impossible to see what the future will necessarily be and influence the future in such a way as to prevent it from becoming what it will necessarily be." Taken to this level, it's tautological.

Every time one of these threads crop up, I explain that determinism and free will aren't mutually exclusive. I also explain that omniscience doesn't preclude influencing the future (even on the part of the omniscient being, and certainly not on the part of other beings).

In some cases I've even linked to or paraphrased demonstrations of the truth of these statements.

Every time one of these threads crops up, somebody comes out and says I'm wrong. They never actually refute my demonstrations (probably wise of them, given that both of my positions have been demonstrated rigorously), and they never actually support their own claims (in fact, such claims have never been logically supported rigorously or otherwise, except in tautological or circular ways).

These people are wrong, and that's critical. The entire OP is based on a fallacious premise. But because, for some reason I can't fathom, the fallacious premise makes intuitive sense to many people, they continue to accept it as fact despite never having considered it in depth. So, hmk, quinn, all you others who think this is obvious: Here's a challenge. If it's so clearly, undeniably true, then it should be very simple to establish such syllogistically. All you have to do is construct such a syllogism, in which neither the definition of your terms nor the statement of your premises assumes the proposition to be proved. Then I'll walk away with my tail between my legs, and I'll change my location to "owned by hmk (or whoever)," and I'll always agree with you whenever you post from here to eternity.

I'm waiting...

Re: It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ..
 

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It's true that it's impossible to see the future and then be able to change it.

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No. Or rather, only in a relatively limited sense. In that sense I'd use terms like "It's impossible to see what the future will necessarily be and influence the future in such a way as to prevent it from becoming what it will necessarily be." Taken to this level, it's tautological.

Every time one of these threads crop up, I explain that determinism and free will aren't mutually exclusive. I also explain that omniscience doesn't preclude influencing the future (even on the part of the omniscient being, and certainly not on the part of other beings).

In some cases I've even linked to or paraphrased demonstrations of the truth of these statements.

Every time one of these threads crops up, somebody comes out and says I'm wrong. They never actually refute my demonstrations (probably wise of them, given that both of my positions have been demonstrated rigorously), and they never actually support their own claims (in fact, such claims have never been logically supported rigorously or otherwise, except in tautological or circular ways).

These people are wrong, and that's critical. The entire OP is based on a fallacious premise. But because, for some reason I can't fathom, the fallacious premise makes intuitive sense to many people, they continue to accept it as fact despite never having considered it in depth. So, hmk, quinn, all you others who think this is obvious: Here's a challenge. If it's so clearly, undeniably true, then it should be very simple to establish such syllogistically. All you have to do is construct such a syllogism, in which neither the definition of your terms nor the statement of your premises assumes the proposition to be proved. Then I'll walk away with my tail between my legs, and I'll change my location to "owned by hmk (or whoever)," and I'll always agree with you whenever you post from here to eternity.

I'm waiting...

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Since you didn't say I had to have even remotely reasonable or agreed upon premises:

If free will and determinism are compatible, all apples will be red.

Not all apples are red.

Therefore, free will and determinism aren't compatible.

I prefer 'pwned' to 'owned,' thx.