Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

This just happened to me and I thought it bears mentioning that we call the line stack-a-donk for very good reason.

When a very good player has position on you, I think it's a terrible line to take, personally.

Villain was 13/13/infinite over 110 hands or so and I have no idea what he thought I would call with here. It's certainly possible I am float/stealing here but I never have AJ or some nonsense that might consider calling his push, because I check behind almost every made hand here, and only betting a steal or a very strong hand. I'd only call his push with KK+ or a 5, and KK+ is just obscenely unlikely for me here.

I was 19/15 and I assume he uses PT so he should know this.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $333.05
CO: $202
Bilbo: $381.90
SB: $467.15
BB: $165.90

Pre-flop: (5 players) Bilbo is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $7</font>, Bilbo calls, 2 folds.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($17, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">CO bets $17</font>, Bilbo calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($51, 2 players)
CO checks, <font color="#cc0000">Bilbo bets $25</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises all-in $178</font>, Bilbo calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($407, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $407)


Results:
Final pot: $407
CO showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Am I wrong? Does anyone here think Villain played this hand fine and was just cold-decked?

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

i think if you have a J here you sometimes put him on a draw and call, also there are a lot of people with good stats that play bad postflop, so unless you two have played a lot he shouldnt assume you are "good" IMO

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

Depends on you actually. I'd say your wrong generally speaking though. You could easily either be just floating here or have a flush draw in which case you would have bet the turn, he woulda check raised and you wouldn't have come here with this hand.

Was he cold decked ? Maybe a little. against a 19/15 this could be played many many ways, but a lot of those will end up with villian all in or losing at least half his stack and not happy about it. Honestly, what can he put you on ? JJ is unlikely cuz you prolly reraise with it, 55 is highly unlikely. Basically you need 56s or something and from your stats it doesn't appear you play that you cold call very often. Probably his best bet was to bet turn, then check call river if flush missed or check fold if it hit.

In a nutshell, this is kinda silly. Playing hands like this against 2+2ers isn't JUST to do the stack a donk. It stops floats, and since you apparently will never call with AJ here its a great way to bluff with a flush draw too isn't it ? Think about that one from now on when a good 2+2er c/r's you [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think if you have a J here you sometimes put him on a draw and call, also there are a lot of people with good stats that play bad postflop, so unless you two have played a lot he shouldnt assume you are "good" IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is that I never have a J here. I check behind practically any J.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

pffft - if you have floated him like 50000 times then this *might* be OK, but its really dumb. What is he getting value out of? AJ? - not vs a good player

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

this is an incredibly easy turn bet for villain unless he thinks you are floating, and even then c-c is better

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on you actually. I'd say your wrong generally speaking though. You could easily either be just floating here or have a flush draw in which case you would have bet the turn, he woulda check raised and you wouldn't have come here with this hand.

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Yeah, but I FOLD those hands to the check-raise, and this is very bad for him, unless I fold precisely A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], which I again, given the action, NEVER have. This post is not about whether I won the hand.

[ QUOTE ]


In a nutshell, this is kinda silly. Playing hands like this against 2+2ers isn't JUST to do the stack a donk. It stops floats, and since you apparently will never call with AJ here its a great way to bluff with a flush draw too isn't it ? Think about that one from now on when a good 2+2er c/r's you

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, a J is not a very likely holding for me. I don't like to bluff with made hands.

The only made hands I might bluff with are 22-44 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If my only reasonable combos are monsters and steals, then he should check-call most of the time.

I agree he can't do much about losing a lot with our respective hands, but I don't think he should have gotten stacked.

I also think that sometimes check-raising the turn is fine, when I can have a much wider range that might call. When the board is paired it is very unlikely that I call with worse hands.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is an incredibly easy turn bet for villain unless he thinks you are floating, and even then c-c is better

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I agree, mostly because 2-barreling flops like this with air or flushdraws is very powerful, because players with stats like mine often call paired flops with a lot of PPs just to see if the PFR will bet the turn.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
...unless he thinks you are floating

[/ QUOTE ]

What does 'floating' mean?

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

Stack a donk line I've used on soooo many tags and it is a very good play.

In this instance it's horrible because it's a huge overbet and he is way ahead / way behind and never gets called by a worse hand. But the line in general is great. Stop making posts saying "3 betting the fish light is bad" and then showing a results oriented hand where some idiot bluffs his stack off with AQ into AK high. Both concepts certainly have their merits and benefits / downsides.

Besides, unless you're two barrelling every hand you need to use the stack a donk line from time to time.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

the point that merits discussion more here, bilbo, is your lame turn bet. every time i have an overpair/AJ/etc here and a TAGish player 1/2pots the turn, i know i'm beat. too many of you guys go all donkish when you get the absolute or near nuts. you got lucky that he didn't see through your valuebet and stacked himself.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

a turn C/R is fine here.

If he leads, what worse hand can you call with?

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
the point that merits discussion more here, bilbo, is your lame turn bet. every time i have an overpair/AJ/etc here and a TAGish player 1/2pots the turn, i know i'm beat. too many of you guys go all donkish when you get the absolute or near nuts. you got lucky that he didn't see through your valuebet and stacked himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are saying he should bet more? Whats so bad about 1/2 pot here?

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

If you have 110 hands on him, we can perhaps assume that he also has 110 hands on you. That doesn't seem like anywhere near enough for him to draw some of the conclusions you seem to be expecting him to draw.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stack a donk line I've used on soooo many tags and it is a very good play.



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Can you please explain the basics of the "Stack-a-donk" line.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

Check-raise turn all-in with an overpair after being the flop aggressor.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

I don't think stack-a-donk is that bad against a good player in this spot.

It discourages floating and at least at party I successfully stacked many taggish players that called with TPGK.

I've been on a break for over a week now and have only played 1-2k hands at FT so really don't know how well the line works there.

NP: Halford - Made In Hell

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] stack a donk

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

Have to agree with OP, putting all your chips in the middle with a lousy pair of Qs, after villain has called your pfr, called your flop lead, and bet the flop, is just dumb.

If they were Aces, and the board offered more opportunity for villain to have hit an inferior hand, then stack-a-donk away.

But this board is J high, paired. You are more likely here to have whiffed completely, or to have him beat right out of the box. Much less likely to have made a hand he beats, that you will call a push on. Bad play by villain.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
If they were Aces, and the board offered more opportunity for villain to have hit an inferior hand, then stack-a-donk away.


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I don't think that changes anything. How many TAGs just call a pf raise with QQ+?

NP: Kotiteollisuus - Soin

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If they were Aces, and the board offered more opportunity for villain to have hit an inferior hand, then stack-a-donk away.


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I don't think that changes anything. How many TAGs just call a pf raise with QQ+?

NP: Kotiteollisuus - Soin

[/ QUOTE ]
Not many, but with position some will. And more importantly, they may call in position with AK/AQ, and if the flop comes with a K or Q, chances just increased that they hit top pair, which is after all the stack-a-donk's bread-and-butter target.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

I don't like the line villian took in this hand at all, but it doesn't mean the stack-a-donk line is bad against good players. He overplayed his hand greatly.

I can't really see him folding out better hands when he builds the pot like this, but I definately see him folding out worse ones. Hero needs exactly AJ for his play to work some of the time. Every other worse hand folds. I don't see better hands folding either.

Villian overplayed his hand.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stack a donk line I've used on soooo many tags and it is a very good play.



[/ QUOTE ]
Can you please explain the basics of the "Stack-a-donk" line.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's what you see in the example hand.
Raise preflop
C-bet flop
Check raise turn all in

Original thread is El D's QQ over Strasser's TT

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

I don't think stack a donk is a bad line here for villain. A 19/15 coldcalling is almost always a weak to medium pair, meaning you missed the flop (or hit quads as here, but that's rather unlikely). Betting the turn generally just gets a fold where a c/r gets some more value from my overpair.

Only thing that would bother me as villain is the size of the bet. Most players floating hands like 88 here bet a bit more on the turn.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think stack a donk is a bad line here for villain. A 19/15 coldcalling is almost always a weak to medium pair, meaning you missed the flop (or hit quads as here, but that's rather unlikely). Betting the turn generally just gets a fold where a c/r gets some more value from my overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that situation, why is a c/r superior to a c/c lead river line?

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

I don't think this was badly played by villain.

What hands is he behind after that action up to the turn? 55 is insanely unlikely, as is AA/KK. JJ is about it and there are 3 combinations of that hand left.

But yea, I generally don't like c/r the turn vs a tag. I don't think this is a good example though.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

First, whey aren't you betting the turn with AJ?

Second, villain's turn c/r is not terrible. Personally with his hand I will often c/c the turn here and then either lead or c/c the river. But him c/r the turn is OK, as long as he balances it with turn c/r when he has a draw here. Something like AdQd or AdTd could c/r you here and if his frequences are right you are going to lose money to this.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

I do not mind c/r the turn here. Having a wide turn c/r range is crucial to playing a deceptive game IMO.

I am c/r this turn with a monster, an overpair, and a draw.

Although, from your bet size, I may be inclined to just call with a draw getting pretty good odds, especially if its the backdoor club draw on the turn.

That said, I sometimes c/r here, I sometimes lead, I sometimes c/c-lead river, or c/c-c/c river. I'd say, probably 35%, 25%, 20%, 20%, villain depending and sometimes just randomly.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the point that merits discussion more here, bilbo, is your lame turn bet. every time i have an overpair/AJ/etc here and a TAGish player 1/2pots the turn, i know i'm beat. too many of you guys go all donkish when you get the absolute or near nuts. you got lucky that he didn't see through your valuebet and stacked himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are saying he should bet more? Whats so bad about 1/2 pot here?

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yes i absolutely think he should bet more. IME your average player with TAG stats bets differently when floating and when valuebetting near-nut hands in position after the preflop raiser checks the turn.

this is a transparent value bet. if you actually differentiate your bets like this, you might as well never float, because your floats will have no credibility.

and i still believe stackadonk is fine against actual TAGs, who will float in position and apply pressure on the turn with air. it discourages floating and gets extra value out of overaggressive players who have air and will fold to a second barrel but bet if checked to.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

The real question here is whether he's checkraising the turn vs you with a wide enough range of air/draws to balance the cr with QQ. If so then it doesn't matter if you fold anything less than a 5, you loose either way. If not then it's obviously a bad move.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
The real question here is whether he's checkraising the turn vs you with a wide enough range of air/draws to balance the cr with QQ. If so then it doesn't matter if you fold anything less than a 5, you loose either way. If not then it's obviously a bad move.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so too

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stack a donk line I've used on soooo many tags and it is a very good play.



[/ QUOTE ]
Can you please explain the basics of the "Stack-a-donk" line.

[/ QUOTE ]
Original thread is El D's QQ over Strasser's TT



[/ QUOTE ]

odd that these are both good players isnt it OP?

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

Do you only bet the turn with a five or better?

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

Hi everyone. I just wanted to introduce myself. I am a new poster to the small stakes forum. I have spent the last week or so backreading most of the main sticky and the current threads.

As to the current thread, can someone please post a link to the original El D/Strassa thread? I have searched the forums in vain for it. Thanks in advance.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

I wrote about this a couple of days ago, but stack-a-donk is not that good for small stakes IMO.

Against bad players it looks really strong, and most decent players aren't floating that much, so that they then wouldn't make the adjustment of bet/calling with top-pair when it looks like they are floating.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

A lot of ass players and some good players who are either on tilt or think their opponent is laggro or are into making a mistake will call the stack-a-donk CR with 1010 or AJ here. I personally hate how he played the hand and I think this is a reasonably point. Still, I think this is a results orientated, semi-brag, "Holy [censored], I hit quads" post.

A'

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi everyone. I just wanted to introduce myself. I am a new poster to the small stakes forum. I have spent the last week or so backreading most of the main sticky and the current threads.

As to the current thread, can someone please post a link to the original El D/Strassa thread? I have searched the forums in vain for it. Thanks in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strassa v Diablo

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
the point that merits discussion more here, bilbo, is your lame turn bet. every time i have an overpair/AJ/etc here and a TAGish player 1/2pots the turn, i know i'm beat. too many of you guys go all donkish when you get the absolute or near nuts. you got lucky that he didn't see through your valuebet and stacked himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I make this bet with a steal, too, or a flush draw, that's perfectly fine.

You're saying he folds to this but will call or C/R if I bet $40? That's very illogical.

Keep folding overpairs to 1/2 pot turn bets, please.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
a turn C/R is fine here.

If he leads, what worse hand can you call with?

[/ QUOTE ]

AJ is the only one I can think of.

I don't think I call with a flush draw, either.

Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
 

That link is not working. Please resubmit a working one. Thanks.