The gay lisp
 

NT locked goodsamaritan's post in OOT about the gay lisp. Probably because of the tone of good's post as well as OOT maybe not really being the right venue for serious discussion of this sort of thing.

But this is something I've always found strange and have thought about in the past. I did a search and found some interesting links.

http://joeclark.org/soundinggay.html - economist article
http://www.speech-language-therapy.com/codemix.htm - code switching and gay speech
http://www.newsandevents.utoronto.ca/bin2/020218c.asp - Researchers examine patterns

Lounge Linguists, thoughts?

Re: The gay lisp
 

I of course have no evidence to back this up, but I think the gay lisp evolved as a socially acceptable way for gay men to continuously advertise that they are gay. If a gay man wants to attract as many other gay men as possible, he'll optimize his search if every guy he meets can tell that he's gay. Otherwise, he risks meeting the man of his dreams, but missing the opportunity because the other guy didn't know that he was gay and potentially interested. The lisp accomplishes the goal of constant advertisement without requiring the gay guy to do anything too outlandish.

The more difficult questions, though, are how this tendency got started and exactly how people can recognize it.

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the gay lisp evolved as a socially acceptable way for gay men to continuously advertise that they are gay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Throughout history, there has very rarely been an 'acceptable' way for gay men to advertise that they are gay. There are very few places even today where it is really 'acceptable'. This is a terrible, terrible theory.

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the gay lisp evolved as a socially acceptable way for gay men to continuously advertise that they are gay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Throughout history, there has very rarely been an 'acceptable' way for gay men to advertise that they are gay. There are very few places even today where it is really 'acceptable'. This is a terrible, terrible theory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe socially acceptable isnt the right term. But it is good way for a man to subtly advertise that he is gay at all times.

Re: The gay lisp
 

I think a 'subtle' advertisement would be something like matching your socks with your belt. thaying you jutht looooove the new prada thtore on fthifthhtht avenue is not what i would call subtle

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a 'subtle' advertisement would be something like matching your socks with your belt. thaying you jutht looooove the new prada thtore on fthifthhtht avenue is not what i would call subtle

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't this the kind of crass response for which you locked the other thread? El D put some effort into this post, and all you're doing is making "gays talk funny" posts. Bravo.

Re: The gay lisp
 

Dom,

I guess the most interesting thing to me here is how much of this speech pattern is learned behavior and how much of it is that people who are inclined to speak like this due to some physical reason are highly correlated with a likelihood to be gay.

Hmmm, not sure if that really made sense.

Things I'm wondering....

How much of his is directly linked to gay identity? Take someone who grew up in Hicksville and pushed all gayness to the far corners of his being. Then this person goes to college, moves to a big city, etc. and becomes more comfortable with his sexuality and acknowledges it. Is someone like that likely to NOW pick up this speech pattern?

What about straight guys who speak in this very affected manner. I know some who I was positive were gay after meeting them, but apparently they are not. How much of a physical thing is this?

I would say about half of the gay guys I know speak with some degree of this speech pattern, maybe a little less. I'm curious as to how much of that is due to learning/adapting to a culture vs. how much is due to some physical predisposition towards speaking that way.

I guess I could answer some of these questions by asking "gay sounding" gay friends when they started to talk like that and when they identified as being gay.

Re: The gay lisp
 

it does seem to be a mix between "nurture vs. nature." I, too, know straight men who talk like this, as well as plenty of gay men who don't.

It does seem to me to be a way of "belonging" to a community of some sort for some of the more flamboyantly lisping gay men. Obviously then, it's an affectation for these people.

but what about the straight or gay men in middle America who talk like this, without having access to a socially acceptable "gay" community/bar/whatever? Where does this speech patter come from?

I think it's pretty perplexing, but those article you linked were interesting.

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think a 'subtle' advertisement would be something like matching your socks with your belt. thaying you jutht looooove the new prada thtore on fthifthhtht avenue is not what i would call subtle

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't this the kind of crass response for which you locked the other thread? El D put some effort into this post, and all you're doing is making "gays talk funny" posts. Bravo.

[/ QUOTE ]

not at all

you'll notice i made the same type of 'crass' post in the thread in OOT

do you disagree? i think that the 'lisp' is much more complex a phenomenon than either solution samaritan gave, involving elements of both subconscious and conscious reinforcement. there's really not much sophisticated research on it at this point.

Re: The gay lisp
 

I'm not much of a verbal linguist, but there are emergent patterns in different cultures where English is concerned.

To say English is one static language that they merely speak differently is inaccurate.

It's best to think of that as a cultural accent rather than a behavorial effect.

NT, do you realize there are better ways to bring your point across here? Even my girlfriend would knee you in the jewels for making that remark, sir.

Re: The gay lisp
 

Dom,

I agree w/ pretty much everything in your post, especially the perplexing part, hence this thread. One comment, though.

"flamboyantly lisping gay men"

I think we can largely ignore those guys in this discussion, as I think most would agree that these guys use speech just like outrageous clothing and exaggerated limp wrists and prancing and stuff as ways to flaunt their gayness.

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
NT, do you realize there are better ways to bring your point across here? Even my girlfriend would knee you in the jewels for making that remark, sir.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, lucky for me mine is not so uppity.

I don't much care if people don't look beyond my rather brisk approach at times to see my point. Their loss.

Also, insert --stock comment about having many gay friends and going to gay bars and occasionally having sex with men just to prove I'm not phobic-- here

Re: The gay lisp
 

She ain't either. She'd do it on principle alone. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

See, a Toronto boy learns a lot. We got everybody comin' from everywhere, every walk of life in this megacity.

'frisco with better winter dress, and, well, we're also Canadian. That accounts for a different, less abrasive approach.

Naw worries.

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a 'subtle' advertisement would be something like matching your socks with your belt. thaying you jutht looooove the new prada thtore on fthifthhtht avenue is not what i would call subtle

[/ QUOTE ]

i am THO giving you a THTAR

it took me about a minute to figure out what u said
then i couldnt stop laughing
also ur a hipocrite for making fun and then giving a star, but ur a damn funny one.

here comes someone making fun of my grammer and spelling mistakes....

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
also ur a hipocrite for making fun and then giving a star, but ur a damn funny one.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd be a hypocrite if i locked the thread for being offensive and made a comment like that.

the reason i locked the thread was because i didn't think the discussion was going anywhere productive, i thought good samaritan had some very foolish ideas about the linguistic / sociological origins and significance of 'the lisp,' and i thought it was more suited to one of several other forums.

unfortunately i don't think there is much we can do with this topic in any forum, and here's why.

first, there has been very little actual linguistic research on this issue.

second, anyone familiar with principles of research in the social sciences can see that the studies produced so far have a number of flaws in design and lack the kind of specificity and breadth of data to really make them even potentially useful. not to say that they shouldn't be done, or should be ignored completely, but they represent baby steps, nothing more. for one, there is a high element of 'performance' to language and most people have a fair degree of variance in their speech patterns depending on the audience and the subject matter. linguists studying regional and cultural dialects usually have to immerse themselves in it for extended periods to gather the kind of data a really in-depth analysis of this phenomenon would require.

while some of the very rough data presented so far seems to suggest that there might be some plausibility to an identifiable 'gay dialect' of sorts, and that it might include certain 'feminized' speech patterns and intonations, i think we're a long way from quantifying it beyond that. for one, does it exist in other languages? does it have characteristics common to all languages or does it vary between them? for instance, in one of the studies linked in the OP it notes that the pronounced asibilation observed in stereotypically gay american men is common in several other dialects or languages as well. do gay speakers of those languages exhibit even more pronounced asibilation, or is the dialect different in french, spanish, etc.

what makes this notion different from other dialects is that anecdotal evidence would seem to indicate that it may exist across other linguistic borders???? i don't know if anyone has ever studied something like feminized speech in different languages, and whether its traits carry over, but that might be a place to start.

for these and other reasons, i suspect that the discussion, if it picks up any steam, will be largely anecdotal from this point on.

Re: The gay lisp
 

i wonder how many bisexual men speak with a gay lisp. and i wonder what the ratios are between strictly gay and bisexual men regarding the lisp. and i wonder how many closet homosexuals speak with a gay lisp.

i imagine it's acquired as a method of identification for most.

Re: The gay lisp
 

those doing it, enough with the silly lisp jokes already.

Re: The gay lisp
 

It's advertising, and it's also conformity. Gay people have managed to develop "gay culture," which entails listening to Madonna and house music, clubbing, dressing in trendy and expensive clothes, and being snotty and superficial. What that has to do with being attracted to males I haven't the faintest, but it's something for people with no sense of identity to attach to.

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
How much of his is directly linked to gay identity? Take someone who grew up in Hicksville and pushed all gayness to the far corners of his being. Then this person goes to college, moves to a big city, etc. and becomes more comfortable with his sexuality and acknowledges it. Is someone like that likely to NOW pick up this speech pattern?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm no expert on the subject, but just based on experience, I'd say they would be inclined to pick up the speech pattern. Friends tend to pick up other friends tendencies. When I was 12, a friend moved down to FL. When he visited the following summer he had a bit of a drawl. Another instance: a few summers ago, I visited friends in Buffalo. They had this dumb habbit where instead of saying, "let's get dinner", they'd say "dinner, or no?" I caught myself saying it in less than 2 days, without ever consciously trying to.

I just think it's pretty natural for people to adapt to their surroundings. They want to fit in, they want to be liked. I wouldn't be surprised if it occured even moreso in someone with deeply repressed feelings.

Re: The gay lisp
 

I am living in my second non-english speaking country within the past 2 years...my english sentences have been simplified and i catch myself speaking improperly on the phone with english speakers because the nature of my surroundings.

BUT i don't want to use incorrect grammer to identify myself with english second language speakers, it happens subliminally

For what it is worth...

Re: The gay lisp
 

I have never, ever heard a straight man talk with the gay lisp.

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have never, ever heard a straight man talk with the gay lisp.

[/ QUOTE ]

how would you know the person speaking is gay or straight, if the only evidence you have is whether or not he has a lisp?

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have never, ever heard a straight man talk with the gay lisp.

[/ QUOTE ]

how would you know the person speaking is gay or straight, if the only evidence you have is whether or not he has a lisp?

[/ QUOTE ]

let me rephrase: i have never, ever heard a man I knew to be straight talk with a gay lisp.

Re: The gay lisp
 

DD,

"I have never, ever heard a straight man talk with the gay lisp."

Really? You've never met any effeminate straight guys?

Re: The gay lisp
 

I know one ostensibly straight guy (has steady girlfriend, comments on hot chicks, etc.) who talks like that. Everyone thinks he's a flamer when meeting him for the first time.

Re: The gay lisp
 

I've often wondered about this. apart from other things in this thread, some things to consider:

some of this is just a result of hanging with other gay guys. ie I run with the hipster crowd, I'll probably end up wearing white belts. I run with the gay crowd, I'll probably end up talking like they do. Similar to the way many groups of people tend to adopt the same running jokes.

it also may just be a common way of expression and attraction. Similarly, why do many lesbians cut their hair to look like men's hair? B/c they may feel more comfortable this way, and it also may serve to attract fellow lesbians.

(granted, the % of lesbians with butch haircuts is lower than the % of lisping gay guys, but I think it's a somewhat similar phenomenom)

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
DD,

"I have never, ever heard a straight man talk with the gay lisp."

Really? You've never met any effeminate straight guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I've met plenty of effeminate straight guys. Just not any that talked with a gay lisp.

Re: The gay lisp
 

Am I the only one who suspects that the "gay lisp" is an urban legend? I suspect that people are conflating effeminate speech with a "gay lisp." I've met a lot of gay guys, some of which spoke effeminately, some of whom didn't, but I have never, ever met one that actually "lithped." A lisp is a speech impediment. If an effeminate gay man had a lisp, I could imagine that it would exacerbate the effect in the eyes (or ears, rather) of the straight audience. After that it simply becomes a stereotype. I've never heard it outside of a comedian immitating a gay man.

A challenge to the Gay Lisp Theory advocates:

A) What gay celebrities are known to have exhibited a "gay lisp"?
B) What percentage of known gay celebrities would you guess they make up?
C) Can you show that percentage to be significantly different from the percentage of lispers in the general population?

I think the gay lisp is equal parts urban legend and stereotype.

Re: The gay lisp
 

Borodog,
I think you are just arguing semantics.

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who suspects that the "gay lisp" is an urban legend? I suspect that people are conflating effeminate speech with a "gay lisp." I've met a lot of gay guys, some of which spoke effeminately, some of whom didn't, but I have never, ever met one that actually "lithped." A lisp is a speech impediment. If an effeminate gay man had a lisp, I could imagine that it would exacerbate the effect in the eyes (or ears, rather) of the straight audience. After that it simply becomes a stereotype. I've never heard it outside of a comedian immitating a gay man.

A challenge to the Gay Lisp Theory advocates:

A) What gay celebrities are known to have exhibited a "gay lisp"?
B) What percentage of known gay celebrities would you guess they make up?
C) Can you show that percentage to be significantly different from the percentage of lispers in the general population?

I think the gay lisp is equal parts urban legend and stereotype.

[/ QUOTE ]

The theory, at least as I see it, is NOT that all gay men speak with a gay lisp, but rather that all men who speak with a gay lisp are gay.

Re: The gay lisp
 

I didn't say that the theory was that all men spoke with a gay lisp. The theory is clearly that gay men are more disposed to the gay lisp than others. I don't buy it. They might be more disposed to a feminine way of speaking because of brain anatomy, and some of them might have a lisp, but I don't see them being more disposed as a group to the "gay lisp."

Besides, isn't that like saying that all men who were dresses are transvestites?

Besides, it can't possibly be right. If one concedes that there are some portion of straight men who speak in an effeminate manner (there seems to be such a trend among men in the deep south raised by higher society domineering mothers in my experience), and that some portion of all men speak with a lisp, there must be some small number of effeminate, lisping straight men. Who are probably very pissed off.

Re: The gay lisp
 

This thread is absolutely fabulous.

-J

The stylistics
 

The gay style, whatever that is, eventually becomes like the black style, whatever that is, in terms of getting adopted by some forward-thinking or simply by some flashier parts of society.

Outré and stylistic affectations of the minorities, in general, are to be aspired for, in certain circles of the majority, but only when such stylistic affectations are mostly devoid of much significance. When you see gold-plated razors hung around the necks of ivy league girls, punk style is dead. (And we all have that inclination, to be honest; just to varying extent.)

Mickey Brauth

Starry-eyed and laughing
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think there is much we can do with this topic in any forum, and here's why. there has been very little actual linguistic research on this issue.

[/ QUOTE ]Well, check the OP again.

And what's amusing is that in your own post you provide evidence (and criticism) of such research!

[ QUOTE ]
i suspect that the discussion, if it picks up any steam, will be largely anecdotal from this point on.

[/ QUOTE ]Linguistic research on modern languages is based almost entirely on the "anecdotal". You should know this.

Mickey Brausch

Re: The gay lisp
 

[ QUOTE ]
the most interesting thing to me here is how much of this speech pattern is learned behavior and how much of it is that people who are inclined to speak like this due to some physical reason are highly correlated with a likelihood to be gay.

[/ QUOTE ] It is mostly cultural, IMO.

Gays have two things against them. One is that they are working against the "natural order of things" (of both Nature and Social Norms), which makes them a separate group in society, by definition. The other is that they are viewed still with sentiments ranging from suspicion to hostility. This reinforces their need to be secretive, protective of their own, and defensive -- to varying degrees, of course, and depending upon the specific society one lives in.

There are gay-specific terms in almost every language, to the point that one can safely talk about gay languages, just as one talks of ebonics, engineers' lingo, cop lingo, gangster speech, et cetera. The only part of society that does not need to be secretive or defensive, is the majority; and the majority sucks out and adopts terms (and speech patterns) from the minorities constantly, because of primal needs such as the need to belong, which is present in every human. (And lost in the vast sea of a majority is kind of a fuzzy belonging.)

I happen to have dictionaries of gay non-English languages and the languages are very facinating, in their inventiveness and poetic allure. Two gay persons could be conversing in gay lingo without a third hetero party present having a clue what (or who) they are talking about.

Lisping is not some natural, in-born affectation of the gay mouth. (Yes, I know, hold the jokes.) Although it does work the mouth's tongue better! Lisping is a cultural artifact that some gays in some languages (not all Spaniards are gay!) have adopted, because it signifies the opposite of macho; delicacy, a bit of feminine helplessness, difference, warmth. And it's also supposed to mean teasing.

Lisping gays will hiss rather than lisp when in hostile attack mode.

Mickey Brausch

Re: Starry-eyed and laughing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Linguistic research on modern languages is based almost entirely on the "anecdotal". You should know this.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 100% wrong. By anecdotal I mean ten or twelve people posting "I know this one gay guy who is totally butch and this other straight guy who talks like a gay!" Or something more general about their experiences. Not statistics, not structural analysis of intonation or pitch in sentences, etc. Linguists - and most social scientists - have generally disposed of the notion of purely objective research, and accepted that even the act of observation affects the subject. That doesn't mean that they don't collect statistics and analyze data. "Anecdotal" is not the same as "subjective."

I would say 'you should know this' back to you to return the condescension, but I have no reason to believe it's true.

Re: Starry-eyed and laughing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Linguistic research on modern languages is based almost entirely on the "anecdotal".

[/ QUOTE ]

By anecdotal I mean ten or twelve people posting "I know this one gay guy who is totally butch and this other straight guy who talks like a gay!" Or something more general about their experiences. Not statistics, not structural analysis of intonation or pitch in sentences, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]I do not know what kind of lingustics field research you have in mind but the term "anecdotal" is used int he sens of going into the geographical area of interest to collect evidence from stories and histories told by the people in the field (often about other people). The study of languages begins with oral histories. If I want to study the effect of modern culture on the local dialect of Marseilles, I better get my butt over there and start talking (and listening) to the locals! The locals' anecdotal evidence is the raw material upon which research is conducted. You should know this.

[ QUOTE ]
"Anecdotal" is not the same as "subjective."

[/ QUOTE ]I don't know why this confuses you. You can be as (unavoidably) subjective on your opinions as you want. On matters of mathematics and statistics, you cannot be too subjective, if at all. Anecdotal evidence in linguistic research, on the other hand, has everything to do with the "subjective" recollection of events, the personal version of developments, the individual analysis.

If you think you can be an archaeologist without, at some point in time, digging up some serious amount of earth, you are mistaken. And you should know this too.

Mickey Brausch

Re: Starry-eyed and laughing
 

I said myself that linguistic research is usually conducted by immersion. Please don't try to argue against me by restating what I've already said. There is a difference between linguistic research that involves stories, oral histories, carefully catalogued subjects and backgrounds, large amounts of data, etc... and an anecdotal thread on an internet message board from geographically dispersed regions that involves vague information, hearsay, and probably a bunch of embellished or fabricated information.

[ QUOTE ]
Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote, or hearsay. The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, especially evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Anecdotal evidence is often unscientific because it cannot be investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization). The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only statistical evidence can determine how typical something is.

[/ QUOTE ]

When a linguist studies oral traditions and histories, they are interested in the 'anecdotes' of the culture and, tangentially, their content, but the data they are collecting (speech patterns, biographical info for the subjects, word choice, pitch, intonation, etc) is NOT anecdotal, it is specific, carefully and consistently documented using accurate and standard terminology, etc.

You are confused about the meaning of 'anecdotal' in the social science discourse. Once again:

[ QUOTE ]
Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote, or hearsay.

[/ QUOTE ]

While linguistics is subjective and highly diachronic, it is NOT informal.

Re: Starry-eyed and laughing
 

NT,

FYI, I for the first time in my time at 2+2 had to look up a word - diachronic.

Re: Starry-eyed and laughing
 

[ QUOTE ]
NT,

FYI, I for the first time in my time at 2+2 had to look up a word - diachronic.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been a while since I studied linguistics, I only remembered it because I looked back at a few texts to make sure my post was accurate.

Saussure, the father of modern linguistics, believed that languages could be looked at both synchronically and diachronically, and that each approach was important... but current linguists have basically accepted that it's impossible to capture language synchronically.