Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

How to donk out from sunday mill in 3 hands

There is about 1400 people left with 900 paid.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2400 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB (t24450)
BB (t21120)
UTG (t11020)
UTG+1 (t27400)
MP1 (t42450)
MP2 (t76728)
Hero (t64190)
Button (t14240)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t7200</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t21000</font>, Hero calls t13800.
Final Pot: t42720 Result in white: <font color="white"> I lose vs AJo
</font>
3 hands later:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2400 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

MP3 (t22890)
CO (t42720)
Button (t7060)
SB (t29320)
BB (t27120)
UTG (t42090)
UTG+1 (t76368)
Hero (t47510)
MP2 (t13880)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t7200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t47390</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls t28000 (All-In), <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: t83430 Result in white: <font color="white">(SB wakes up with AA and I lose) </font>

Very next hand after this:
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2400 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

MP1 (t22650)
MP2 (t42480)
MP3 (t6820)
CO (t68960)
Button (t23280)
SB (t39450)
BB (t73608)
Hero (t18070)
UTG+1 (t13640)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t17950</font>, UTG+1 calls t13520 (All-In), <font color="#666666">7 folds</font>.

Final Pot: t32430 Result in white: <font color="white">(I lose against another shortstack w/ AT) </font>

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I know I donked down here - I am thinking I should have made a smaller raise w/ A9 then folding to a reraise. I'm also thinking pushing 88 from such early position was a bit bold.

Please let me know how bad I am.

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

No. Just keep reading your post. You've got half the answer.

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

Hand 1 is fine. Hand 3 is only play.

Hand 2 is questionable. 2nd position raised and you are in 3rd position. Too dangerous that original raiser or someone else will call and have you dominated. If mid position raised, then OK to push with 88 from button or blinds as a semibluff.

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

Hands like #1 always put me in a bind. My thinking is that in situations like these, chances are really, really good that you are drawing to three outs. I guess some players will do this with KQ, and an underpair is possible of course, but more often you are dominated.

No point, I guess, just that I hate this situation, and probably fold.

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 is fine. Hand 3 is only play.

Hand 2 is questionable. 2nd position raised and you are in 3rd position. Too dangerous that original raiser or someone else will call and have you dominated. If mid position raised, then OK to push with 88 from button or blinds as a semibluff.

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Agreed. I'd probably fold 88 in hand 2, although it's close.

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

I'm going to post my analysis not because I'm an expert, but rather so that someone else can critique or refute my thinking.

Hand 1: Notice all 3 stacks behind are less than or = 10BBs. (SB is close enough.) Therefore, I'm (usually) going to make one of two plays with a good but non-monster starting hand: Either open shove, or make a standard raise and fold to a push. If you are willing call about 10 BBs, you might as well maximize fold equity and open push. I would make the play you made only if at least one of the stacks behind were deeper and I wouldn't want to risk &gt; 10BBs with an open push.

Hand 2: I think you overplayed 88 in that spot. I actually like a call and go from there. If someone pushes behind you'll have a decision to make based on reads and stack sizes. If you see a flop there are a couple of ways you can win the pot.

Hand 3: Only alternative is to fold, and I think you are desperate enough to push that hand.

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I think you overplayed 88 in that spot. I actually like a call and go from there. If someone pushes behind you'll have a decision to make based on reads and stack sizes. If you see a flop there are a couple of ways you can win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

He isn't getting odds without a later call. What are the other ways?

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

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Hand 2: I think you overplayed 88 in that spot. I actually like a call and go from there. If someone pushes behind you'll have a decision to make based on reads and stack sizes. If you see a flop there are a couple of ways you can win the pot.

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He isn't getting odds without a later call. What are the other ways?

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1. Hit a set and value bet. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

2. Bet/raise a "favorable" flop, such as those containing only one overcard no bigger than a J, etc. In fact, I might push those types of flops. If I'm against 99-AA, then I'm going broke but am no worse off than if I had pushed PF. If I'm against hands like AK-AQ, KQs, then the villain has a really tough call and I have good fold equity.

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
2. Bet/raise a "favorable" flop, such as those containing only one overcard no bigger than a J, etc. In fact, I might push those types of flops. If I'm against 99-AA, then I'm going broke but am no worse off than if I had pushed PF. If I'm against hands like AK-AQ, KQs, then the villain has a really tough call and I have good fold equity.

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Really? You'd rather v-bet those hands and take down a smaller pot with KQs+, AQo+ rather than race it?

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. Bet/raise a "favorable" flop, such as those containing only one overcard no bigger than a J, etc. In fact, I might push those types of flops. If I'm against 99-AA, then I'm going broke but am no worse off than if I had pushed PF. If I'm against hands like AK-AQ, KQs, then the villain has a really tough call and I have good fold equity.

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Really? You'd rather v-bet those hands and take down a smaller pot with KQs+, AQo+ rather than race it?

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I understand your point, but the problem with that is pushing about 20BBs from MP. I can still get away from the hand with a viable stack by calling if a stack behind pushes and the original raiser calls. All things considered (my hand, 20BBs, MP) pushing PF seems like a bad risk/reward ratio.

Again, I may be wrong, but that is my thinking...

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Notice all 3 stacks behind are less than or = 10BBs. (SB is close enough.) Therefore, I'm (usually) going to make one of two plays with a good but non-monster starting hand: Either open shove, or make a standard raise and fold to a push. If you are willing call about 10 BBs, you might as well maximize fold equity and open push. I would make the play you made only if at least one of the stacks behind were deeper and I wouldn't want to risk &gt; 10BBs with an open push.


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I would just open push hand 1, since no one to act has more than 10xBB.

Once you get reraised, you are pot committed and have to call. You are suited, and have the odds to call if you knew villain had AK or KK.

OP's raise is pretty much the as pushing. Open folding from CO with these stacks is terrible.

Pushing &gt; standard raise &gt; limping &gt; miniraise &gt; folding.

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would just open push hand 1, since no one to act has more than 10xBB.

Once you get reraised, you are pot committed and have to call. You are suited, and have the odds to call if you knew villain had AK or KK.



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I agree that open pushing is best, but how are you getting proper odds to call if you make a standard raise and the BB shoves with AK or KK? You are getting 2-1 which is the correct odds against KK, but you are about a 2.4-1 dog against AT-AK. It's close, but it seems like calling or folding in that line are both reasonable. (Excepting future table image considerations.)

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

hand 2 is borderline, but it's not horrible or anything. 1 and 3 are pretty standard, and i don't think anything was significantly misplayed

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

Hand 1 umm ok, but I think flat calling there is better, since you are gonna have position, see the flop and go from there.

Hand 2: Not a play I would make.

Hand 3: The right play in that situation, but you shouldnt have been in that spot in the first place.

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

Thanks for the comments guys, the only thing that really made me need 2 whiskeys before getting to sleep was the 88 push.

As for the A9s push/raise discussion, I was of course fully aware that raise3x=push in this situation, I knew that if anybody was playing the hand they were pushing not calling. So I was already planning to call a push. Maybe I'd have more FE with pushing but that almost eliminates the possibility of them calling with worse hands than A9, right? I mean the guy w AJ could maybe have pushed A8 or KQ too, but wouldn't call a push with those hands.

The 88 push is borderline i know, IMO it was a bad play because I didn't stop to think about that I was in such an early position. I only thought about beating the original raiser (a LAG) and I was pretty sure I had him beat.

Another thing, I am really not used to the structure in this tournament, and I wasn't really sure how aggressive I should be with a stack of 60k and those blinds, nearing the bubble. When I was playing I thought I was shortstacked, but afterwards I felt like I had a big enough stack to wait around for a better spot. The blinds were just about to invrease to 1800/3600+antes. (60k stack = M of about 8-9)

Again, thanks for taking the time to comment on these few hands.

Re: Sunday mill: avg stack to busto in 3 hands, too aggressive?
 

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Maybe I'd have more FE with pushing but that almost eliminates the possibility of them calling with worse hands than A9, right? I mean the guy w AJ could maybe have pushed A8 or KQ too, but wouldn't call a push with those hands.



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I agree, however isn't the same true for hands like 66 and 77 that you want out? Despite this, IMO the benefits of getting A8/KQ to come over the top of your 3x open outweight the disadvantages of ending up racing a hand that you could've made fold with an open shove....