maniac comes alive on the turn
 

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
9 players
Converter

This is another 'player comes alive on the turn' i feel like i have real trouble doin what is best in these situations.

villian is a complete maniac from what i've seen (about 6 hands) caps PF with nothing bluffs etc.

thx

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (13.5SB, 4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.75BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (11.75BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: 13.75BB

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

I would have played exactly the same, but perhaps I make the same mistakes :-)
Let's wait for further comments.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

I'm a new player who has been only doing this for like a week, so it's not anything in your favor to listen to me, I'm just practicing this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I don't think he's on a straight at the turn, think he would have blindly 3-betted it then. I think he limped in with an Ace and something, just taking a shot at the flop even after your 3-bet.
I'd be scared of the Ace, but maybe he limped with a K3s or something. I'd still think he had an Ace, and was looking what you had on the river, therefore he bets, you raise, and he doesn't like his kicker. He probably has you on a AQ/AK/AA but doesn't know and just takes his chances by just calling everything down on the turn and river...

Well, that's it, my first post and probably my first try at 'reading' an opponent lol. Must be waaay off [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

lol, congratz on your first post and thank both of you for your replies.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

UTG+1 is representing a 2 in his hand on the turn. Given your read, he could well have this, but he could be bluffing too.
When he didn't 3-bet the turn, it looks like you caught his bluff, but he's just too much of a showdown monkey to fold.
If you stand by your read you shouldn't fold the turn bet, and I like your raise.
What would you have done if he 3-bets the turn?

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

Std. If he had a real hand he would have popped you on the turn, not just called the raise.

It's either someone with an underpair to the top card, or a bluff. I see it all the time, and try to punish them for their play.

I don't know where the donk came from, but man do I see it a lot lately.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

I like the turn reraise, but I would have c/c'd the river for fear of a weak ace. Then again I'm a coward.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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I like the turn reraise, but I would have c/c'd the river for fear of a weak ace. Then again I'm a coward.

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You can't check-call the river, you're in position.

And if you really think villain has a weak ace you should fold to the turn donk.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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I like the turn reraise, but I would have c/c'd the river for fear of a weak ace. Then again I'm a coward.

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You can't check-call the river, you're in position.

And if you think this is a weak ace you shouldn't like the turn raise.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

The value bet on the river is a little thin, surely.

What hands are calling that we beat? What hands are folding that are beating us? I think the answer to these questions are none, and none. If utg was taking a stab at representing a 2 on the turn, he folds the river. If utg was checking to see if his middle ace was any good, he makes a crying call on the river. I'd just check behind here mate.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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villian is a complete maniac from what i've seen (about 6 hands)

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Please tell us you're kidding.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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And if you really think villain has a weak ace you should fold to the turn donk.

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Decisions usually aren't that cut&amp;dry unless you're getting 1:1 on your money.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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I like the turn reraise, but I would have c/c'd the river for fear of a weak ace. Then again I'm a coward.

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You can't check-call the river, you're in position.

And if you think this is a weak ace you shouldn't like the turn raise.

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Whoops, missed position there.

I like the turn raise until it's called, then I'm thinking weak ace, which is why I would check behind on the river. I don't think a river bet is going to push out any hand that's ahead?

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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villian is a complete maniac from what i've seen (about 6 hands)

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Please tell us you're kidding.

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its a fine read.. how do you want him to phrase it.. the guy has been gonzo every hand he's seen and he noted that it was a small sample.

i'd call the turn and show this down. i am not folding, but i don't want to spend 4 BB's on the big street either. might help solidify the read.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

whydo you raise on the turn i think you should call. you want him to fold?

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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And if you really think villain has a weak ace you should fold to the turn donk.

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Decisions usually aren't that cut&amp;dry unless you're getting 1:1 on your money.

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I don't really know what you're getting at. I was making a point in response to a poster who advocated raising the turn, but then checking the river, and the poster stated that he believed villain had a weak ace. I was saying that if this was true (i.e. somehow known with 100% certainty), then in these circumstances folding to the turn donk would be the correct play.

I'm aware that things aren't usually this "cut &amp; dry" and I have no idea what you're getting at with the remark about getting !:1 on my money. Are you suggesting that I didn't notice something I should have about the pot odds?

If what you're saying is that we can't in fact put villain on such a narrow range, especially given OP's (not that strong) read that villain is a maniac, I totally agree.

I was trying to come to that very point by asking leading questions.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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villian is a complete maniac from what i've seen (about 6 hands)

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Please tell us you're kidding.

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its a fine read.. how do you want him to phrase it.. the guy has been gonzo every hand he's seen and he noted that it was a small sample.

i'd call the turn and show this down. i am not folding, but i don't want to spend 4 BB's on the big street either. might help solidify the read.

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"'Tis a fine pool, English, but 'tis no barn."

"D'oheth!"

a) OP never said that the guy had been gonzo on all 6 hands; and b) there's plenty more information that needs to be included if you're giving a 6-hand read, e.g. has the OP only seen 6 hands with Villan because the Villan just sat down (establishing a table image) or becuase the OP just sat down (much more likely, imo, to be reasonably construed as being a maniac), was the Villan short-stacked, yada yada. To me this smells like a "read" that is provided to justify the turn raise, that's what I'm driving at.

fwiw, I'm likely to call this down as well against an unknown, which is what we have here, not because of some made-up read.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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villian is a complete maniac from what i've seen (about 6 hands)

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Please tell us you're kidding.

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its a fine read.. how do you want him to phrase it.. the guy has been gonzo every hand he's seen and he noted that it was a small sample.

i'd call the turn and show this down. i am not folding, but i don't want to spend 4 BB's on the big street either. might help solidify the read.

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"'Tis a fine pool, English, but 'tis no barn."

"D'oheth!"

a) OP never said that the guy had been gonzo on all 6 hands; and b) there's plenty more information that needs to be included if you're giving a 6-hand read, e.g. has the OP only seen 6 hands with Villan because the Villan just sat down (establishing a table image) or becuase the OP just sat down (much more likely, imo, to be reasonably construed as being a maniac), was the Villan short-stacked, yada yada. To me this smells like a "read" that is provided to justify the turn raise, that's what I'm driving at.

fwiw, I'm likely to call this down as well against an unknown, which is what we have here, not because of some made-up read.

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listen. i'm trying to get better at poker. not get advice on random non-existing hand/reads, that doesnt make any sense. i simply stated that the maniac is a maniac. yes, i had just sat down at the table. yes he was acting crazy 6 out of the 10 hands i was there. no he wasnt short stacked yata yata.

it sounds like your just mad becasue you tried to be a jerk and btspider called you on it. i'm very new and i dont want to make enemies right out but your post was un-called for and degrading.

Thank you to everyone who actually put thought into the the thread and added advice, i appreciate it.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

Yort, here's my point: 6 hands of a read, or 10 hands with 6 hands played, or whatever, isn't enough for you to be pulling a play like this on the turn. The most popular overcard in the deck to your pair is on the board. There's also a straight possible, and a board that might give two pair to a player that will play low, offsuit connectors and trash like that.

Here's a question: what was your plan if he'd 3-bet you on the turn? Now, regardless of your answer, think about how that ISN'T a bad play against a possibly nutbag Villan on this board. Folding's no good, as he could just be affirming your read; calling is no good, given the texture of the board; capping is just out of the question. otoh, if he's donkbetting a worse hand than yours on the turn, do you really want to give him a reason to fold, or are you better off with him betting into you again on the river?

The point I was making, and if you stick around you'll hear it a hundred times (probably a few times from bt), is that you can't put a lot of stock in a small-sample read. A better point, now that I think about it a little more, is that most reads aren't going to change how you should play a hand like this one in micros (obviously a read that this Villan wouldn't donkbet the turn without at least two-pair is the exception, but you would have to be very sure of your read).

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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it sounds like your just mad becasue you tried to be a jerk and btspider called you on it. i'm very new and i dont want to make enemies right out but your post was un-called for and degrading.

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just seconding boz... he is pretty much right on here.

chill out a bit and just try to take it in, noone is trying to degrade you.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

I probably would have only called the turn bet and then called or checked behind on river. With maniacs I tend to find that its impossible to get a good read so if I have a good but not lock hand I like playing the passively and let them bet into me. His turn bet can be a weak ace, a made strt, or an outright bluff. I don't want to get in a war with this guy so I think it makes more sense to just let him donk his chips to you.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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I don't really know what you're getting at. I was making a point in response to a poster who advocated raising the turn, but then checking the river, and the poster stated that he believed villain had a weak ace. I was saying that if this was true (i.e. somehow known with 100% certainty), then in these circumstances folding to the turn donk would be the correct play.

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Fair 'nuff.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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I don't really know what you're getting at. I was making a point in response to a poster who advocated raising the turn, but then checking the river, and the poster stated that he believed villain had a weak ace. I was saying that if this was true (i.e. somehow known with 100% certainty), then in these circumstances folding to the turn donk would be the correct play.

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Fair 'nuff.

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Yeah, my point was if you like the turn raise you should definitely be O.K. with betting the river.

IMO, though, there's no reason to play back at him here. OP's read is weak, but it seems to me enough of a read that the turn donk doesn't necessarily mean an ace.

If he's bluffing, popping the turn just gives him a chance to fold, whereas if you just call you can let him fire again and collect another BB. Just calling also gets you to showdown with more certainty and doesn't expose you to getting 3-bet, which is definitely good against a potential maniac.

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

I agree that 6 hands is enough to tell you somebody's probably a maniac.
I generally advocate more aggression than most against maniacs. IMO, people are too concerned with forcing correct folds on those who don't fold before the river. And just because it's uncomfortable to call down a 3bet doesn't mean that raising isn't the most +ev play.
This particular hand looks like a pretty easy calldown though. You have everyone's favorite overcard on the board and a 4straight, so you're much less likely to be good when you're 3bet as opposed to say a 3flush board when you have top pair. G/L

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

i never looked at this thread until now because there are so many responses. i always get pulled into these somehow - i wish i could just stay out, because it always ends up being a nitwar about a read or a close play or other CRAP

^^;

i've played quite a few hands where i see 5-10 hands of someone's play and i play completely differently with him. like getting in 2-3bb more on the big streets than i would if he were completely unknown. if the guy capped the last 5 hands preflop, he is almost definitely tarded

^^; huk huk

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

So what was the result?

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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I don't really know what you're getting at. I was making a point in response to a poster who advocated raising the turn, but then checking the river, and the poster stated that he believed villain had a weak ace. I was saying that if this was true (i.e. somehow known with 100% certainty), then in these circumstances folding to the turn donk would be the correct play.

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Fair 'nuff.

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Yeah, my point was if you like the turn raise you should definitely be O.K. with betting the river.

IMO, though, there's no reason to play back at him here. OP's read is weak, but it seems to me enough of a read that the turn donk doesn't necessarily mean an ace.

If he's bluffing, popping the turn just gives him a chance to fold, whereas if you just call you can let him fire again and collect another BB. Just calling also gets you to showdown with more certainty and doesn't expose you to getting 3-bet, which is definitely good against a potential maniac.

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I see what you're saying - I always fall into the trap of "he called a bet, so he's probably not that strong - oh crap he called a raise on the turn, now I'm worried" and make a crying call on the river (or check behind).

So rather than spend two bets on the turn to define his hand, spend one bet on the call/check behind line?

Re: maniac comes alive on the turn
 

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So what was the result?

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he had td 3d, i'm not even joking. but like i said, this happens to me all the time and just because this one time it ended in my favor doesnt mean it was the correct play.

boz, thanks for comming back with some nice advice on the hand. i appreciate it.

thx all, like i said before, i appreciate it. &lt;3