A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

although im guessing that this topic wont get many good replies because people dont want to give stuff away, ill give it a try anyways.
maybe its silly and unimportant, but im curious.


why and when, do u lead into a pre flop RE-raiser? is it only when deeper and u want to lead/3bet? or bet fold certain hands?

i have seen the play quite a bit at the higher levels, so there must be something to it. I thought of this after sweating a bld v H@ll match where this hand happened:

H@££INGGOL: raises $150 to $200
NotThiSTiMe: raises $525 to $725
H@££INGGOL: calls $525
*** FLOP *** [2s 9h 4h]
H@££INGGOL: bets $1150
NotThiSTiMe: raises $4173 to $5323 and is all-in
H@££INGGOL: calls $4173
*** TURN *** [2s 9h 4h] [5d]
*** RIVER *** [2s 9h 4h 5d] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
H@££INGGOL: shows [6c 9c] (a pair of Nines)
NotThiSTiMe: shows [Ts Jc] (a pair of Jacks)




anybody have any ideas? if u dont want to post, maybe pm me?

thanks.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

was this headsup?

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

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was this headsup?

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yes

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

this was, yes, but im interested in any numbers of players from 2-6.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

There could be several reasons. One of the top of my head is If the re-raiser doesnt always c-bet and they are in position then you need to make this donk bet with a decent range of hands.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

i dont think you should be leading into a preflop reraiser with ~normal sized stacks if you don't think your hand is best. so it would usually be to induce a raise, probably because the line is so strange and not taken often.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

i think it's a move kinda like open pushing in weird spots. if you have a good idea of how the other guy will treat it you can get some great results, but it usually shouldn't be used because there is almost always a better line. against the right opponent, though, it can be very powerful either as a bluff or to induce a bluff, obviously. i agree with you, though, that it's a weird line. it's a line that's very hard to play against, though.

edit: can you also un* me? wtf?

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

I would do it if I think there is a good chance my opponent has reraised over cards like AK, AQ.. and low cards hit. Then there is a good chance your opponent will make a lay down.

But with this hand I think Hall just hates to let hands go. And he would rather play the flop aggressively then check it.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

top corner, we're glad you would do that so he lays down the worst hand. expert play.

cliff notes: you have no idea what you are talking about

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

im me next time yer online n not playin...

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would do it if I think there is a good chance my opponent has reraised over cards like AK, AQ.. and low cards hit. Then there is a good chance your opponent will make a lay down.


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this is exactly how i expect most fish to think, and which is why a lot of bad players lead into me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

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I would do it if I think there is a good chance my opponent has reraised over cards like AK, AQ.. and low cards hit. Then there is a good chance your opponent will make a lay down.


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this is exactly how i expect most fish to think, and which is why a lot of bad players lead into me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Yves' bluffraises donkbets at 85%

The other 15% he has something and decides to slowplay

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
im me next time yer online n not playin...

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cmon, we all want to learn. Just post a 'lil something here.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
im me next time yer online n not playin...

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durrrrrrrr,

Just don't share your PLO "secrets" with him too, as fsu is looking to grow his roll and not shrink it.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im me next time yer online n not playin...

[/ QUOTE ]


durrrrrrrr,

Just don't share your PLO "secrets" with him too, as fsu is looking to grow his roll and not shrink it.

[/ QUOTE ]

any time any stakes hu plo as long as ur last name isnt benyamine or antonius

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

durrr,

Mine is 10" long.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
durrr,

Mine is 10" long.

[/ QUOTE ]

no [censored]?

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
durrr,

Mine is 10" long.

[/ QUOTE ]
It better be if you're going to post stuff like "Just don't share your PLO 'secrets' with him too, as fsu is looking to grow his roll and not shrink it." because you better be able to back that [censored] up.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
durrr,

Mine is 10" long.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats only when zeejustin is around

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

ouch.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

fsu, I think all the conventional rules are null and void when talking about playing heads up. It becomes all about thinking a number of layers deep - and staying ahead of your opponent.

as to the specifics of this hand, I think that if H@ll was willing to call all-in with his hand, he should have check-raised all-in on the flop. there is almost no chance that Notthistime would not have bet when checked to on that flop.

that being said, it is hard to discuss the play of a heads up match between two very talented players. H@ll might even have been trying to induce an all-in bluff if he was that confident that his nines were the best hand.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

looks like the best part about this bet is the leverage you gain...vs most opponents, if you lead flop like that, the other guy will make decision for his stack. which seems like a good reward/ratio situation.

Best part of this lead is that it lets you trap your opponent, allowing them to put in the final bet instead of your opponents giving up after c-betting.

ie) In same hand, assume hall had AA/ bld missed his flop. since any action like c-c pretty much gives away hall is likey committed, it is unlikely bld will continue firing. by making a lead like this, it gives bld to put in the final bet as he did.

of course, once you show that you are willing to lead-call a raise, you can start throwing in some bluffs and other guy will have harder time taking the standard -3bet/cbet routine.

paging mdama lol

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]


as to the specifics of this hand, I think that if H@ll was willing to call all-in with his hand, he should have check-raised all-in on the flop. there is almost no chance that Notthistime would not have bet when checked to on that flop.

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not trying to be results oriented, but we can use the results as one example of why this might not necessarily be true, no?

i like it a lot if you're confident you have the best hand and you think there's a good chance your opponent will make a play at the pot, which seems to be what happened here.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

notthistime is bld? was a nice match i watched for like almost an hour, they were 4 tabling headsup. hall jumped early lead then notthistime really cameback and killed him.

very aggressive match

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

does Holl really fold much of anything to a push here HU given how aggro Bld is? ive never played him obv, just from what Ive read over time, doesnt seem like hes folding much in a situation like this once he leads (if hes leading with something and not air).

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

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as to the specifics of this hand, I think that if H@ll was willing to call all-in with his hand, he should have check-raised all-in on the flop. there is almost no chance that Notthistime would not have bet when checked to on that flop.

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not trying to be results oriented, but we can use the results as one example of why this might not necessarily be true, no?

i like it a lot if you're confident you have the best hand and you think there's a good chance your opponent will make a play at the pot, which seems to be what happened here.

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i agree, samoleus is way off here

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
durrr,

Mine is 10" long.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lame.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
H@ll might even have been trying to induce an all-in bluff if he was that confident that his nines were the best hand.

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This is the correct answer, except last part, he was obviously in no way certain he had the best hand, but he felt this lead would bring on a bluffpush enough to make it the most profitable line in this situation this time.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
H@ll might even have been trying to induce an all-in bluff if he was that confident that his nines were the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the correct answer, except last part, he was obviously in no way certain he had the best hand, but he felt this lead would bring on a bluffpush enough to make it the most profitable line in this situation this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im me next time yer online n not playin...

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durrrrrrrr,

Just don't share your PLO "secrets" with him too, as fsu is looking to grow his roll and not shrink it.

[/ QUOTE ]

bluffthis!- why did god make you such an idiot? ask him that next time you pray n let me know plz.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
H@ll might even have been trying to induce an all-in bluff if he was that confident that his nines were the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the correct answer, except last part, he was obviously in no way certain he had the best hand, but he felt this lead would bring on a bluffpush enough to make it the most profitable line in this situation this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

that doesnt really answer the question in the OP though, I mean if he leads here to get a push from a bluff but never any other time that won't work long.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
H@ll might even have been trying to induce an all-in bluff if he was that confident that his nines were the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the correct answer, except last part, he was obviously in no way certain he had the best hand, but he felt this lead would bring on a bluffpush enough to make it the most profitable line in this situation this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

that doesnt really answer the question in the OP though, I mean if he leads here to get a push from a bluff but never any other time that won't work long.

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Most people who do this donk with a wide range.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

MDMA is the only one who made any sense in this thread.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
MDMA is the only one who made any sense in this thread.

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Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
H@ll might even have been trying to induce an all-in bluff if he was that confident that his nines were the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the correct answer, except last part, he was obviously in no way certain he had the best hand, but he felt this lead would bring on a bluffpush enough to make it the most profitable line in this situation this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

ahhh nice

http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/l...cm21-50502.jpg

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

duck, I don't get it. I know that one should not be results oriented - but if in fact we do consider the results, H@ll WOULD have won the pot with my suggested line of check-raising. Obviously, Bld does not call all-in after being check-raised on the flop.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

seeing this hand played out in a sit and go at the end as the blinds are escalating wouldn't surprise me lol

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

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duck, I don't get it. I know that one should not be results oriented - but if in fact we do consider the results, H@ll WOULD have won the pot with my suggested line of check-raising. Obviously, Bld does not call all-in after being check-raised on the flop.

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H@ll got all-in on the flop when he was ahead. This is more +EV than check-raising the flop and having Bld fold. I think these are the results that are important and back up his play in this spot. The fact that he was outdrawn doesn't change this.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

[ QUOTE ]
duck, I don't get it. I know that one should not be results oriented - but if in fact we do consider the results, H@ll WOULD have won the pot with my suggested line of check-raising. Obviously, Bld does not call all-in after being check-raised on the flop.

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Samo, you say this like it would be a good thing for Hall. If you accept MDMA's answer, which I do, then of course, you want Bld to get all-in, whether he wins the pot or not. I know you understand this, so I don't get what you're saying.

Then, there's this:
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i dont think you should be leading into a preflop reraiser with ~normal sized stacks if you don't think your hand is best. so it would usually be to induce a raise, probably because the line is so strange and not taken often.

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KRANTZ, do you really believe that you shouldn't be leading here as a rule if you don't think you have the best hand? That strikes me as bizarre. The point is that you establish that you will donk with a wide range of hands, so you afford yourself another spot to outguess your opponent in the match. Especially with 100BB stacks, you enable yourself to win pots with the worst hand (or a hand that prefers to take it down immediately), in spots where a check-raise would leave you both committed.

Re: A Subject that hasnt been discussed.
 

cero, i mean that i wouldnt lead unless i had a hand with no showdown value at all (as a total bluff), or with a hand that i'm going to bet/fold - i'm leading because i think he's either flat out folding to my bet when i have air, or because he will bluff-raise all-in enough of the time for it to be a better line than c/ring (most notably because when c/ring, he will likely only call with a better hand on this board)

i dont see any value in leading to "find out where we're at", any reason for it at all, but i don't THINK this is what you mean (i pretty much echoed what MDMA said here, so i'm thinking i may have chosen words poorly but i'm too lazy to look all the way back at what i wrote)

and if you're meaning that we're leading because Bld might just flat out fold a better TP hand or small overpair some of the time (again, i don't think this is what you mean), then i just totally disagree with that

we're either good, or we're not good here, and bld is a very strong, aggro player, so there are ways of getting him AI that might not apply to ABC, weaker players