OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

I raised the flop because this lame bet is so often a draw, but didn't pot it because I can get away from a turn club very easily with this marginal hand.

Villain has 22/10/3 stats over a too-small sample size, and I haven't seen his cards in any showdowns.

He has about $150 and I cover, and I have about $750 from stackin' donks, and that's all I am aware of in terms of my image in his eyes.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Bilbo is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, Bilbo checks.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($6, 3 players)
SB checks, Bilbo checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets $2</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Bilbo raises to $7</font>, CO calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($20, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Bilbo bets $15</font>, CO calls.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($50, 2 players)
Bilbo checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets $40</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Bilbo raises to $120</font>

Thoughts on all streets?

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

Flop and turn are good.

River sucks IMO.

I prefer leading river. As played, I'd call his bet. Does he ever pay off that raise with less than a straight? Also, 8-6 is in his range, so by raising you are setting yourself up for getting pwned.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

I tend to just lead out in these spots, however I def like the c/r as its from some people any two when checked to there. I think the river c/r is sexy but I would guess he is only betting a missed draw there. I think I would bet b/c I think he checks behind too often w/ pairs, esp if he is the type that would call here light.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

I like leading the river also. He'll check behind with a ton of hands.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like leading the river also. He'll check behind with a ton of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
But it did turn out to be sexy, maybe he POORLY misplayed a set ro something lol

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like leading the river also. He'll check behind with a ton of hands.

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But it did turn out to be sexy, maybe he POORLY misplayed a set ro something lol

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The check raise is more sexy when you don't have anything and villain likely has a weak made hand. so it'd be SEXY with a missed flush draw.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
I like leading the river also. He'll check behind with a ton of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
But it did turn out to be sexy, maybe he POORLY misplayed a set ro something lol

[/ QUOTE ]

The check raise is more sexy when you don't have anything and villain likely has a weak made hand. so it'd be SEXY with a missed flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant villan could have just checked behind so this turned out sexy but could have been a lost oppertunity.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

All,

Most of you seem to be forgetting that a whiffed flush draw is a huge part of his range -- he bet $2 into a $6 pot on the flop and then just called the turn. Betting is pretty bad against a busted draw.

I checked to induce a bluff, but once he bet big, I thought that sets, 2pair, and other hands might be in his range, and pushed (effectively).

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

I think a FD is part of his range; however, I dont think it tends to be as large as you think, unless you have a specific read on him. I also think that he may just check behind w/ a flush draw. So the combination of times you have a pair check behind and also the times the FD checks behind makes leading better imo. I dont remember reading in op if you had him noted as bets when checks to but that obv makes it easy. Also if I checked here it is def w/ intention of c/ring.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
All,

Most of you seem to be forgetting that a whiffed flush draw is a huge part of his range -- he bet $2 into a $6 pot on the flop and then just called the turn. Betting is pretty bad against a busted draw.

I checked to induce a bluff, but once he bet big, I thought that sets, 2pair, and other hands might be in his range, and pushed (effectively).

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear ya. I knew what your thinking was. But I think most sets and 2pair hands reraise the flop or turn. So I think his range is more of missed flush draw or weak made hand whether it's an Ace or something else.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a FD is part of his range; however, I dont think it tends to be as large as you think, unless you have a specific read on him. I also think that he may just check behind w/ a flush draw. So the combination of times you have a pair check behind and also the times the FD checks behind makes leading better imo. I dont remember reading in op if you had him noted as bets when checks to but that obv makes it easy. Also if I checked here it is def w/ intention of c/ring.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you think a FD checks behind is irrelevant because it's never calling a bet. Versus a flush draw, checking is better than betting (assuming you won't fold when he bets) unless you have some maniacal read that he'll always raise a lead but never bluff if you check (sic).

Whether or not a made hand checks is another question. But not many made hands are calling a bet either! The board is scary as hell!

I think that his bet is a bluff or some hand like two pair that is hoping I have a good Ace and can't fold. No one with one pair is betting here, and they are rarely calling a bet either.

Assign a range of hands for Villain. Then tell me how often those hands call a $40 bet.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All,

Most of you seem to be forgetting that a whiffed flush draw is a huge part of his range -- he bet $2 into a $6 pot on the flop and then just called the turn. Betting is pretty bad against a busted draw.

I checked to induce a bluff, but once he bet big, I thought that sets, 2pair, and other hands might be in his range, and pushed (effectively).

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear ya. I knew what your thinking was. But I think most sets and 2pair hands reraise the flop or turn. So I think his range is more of missed flush draw or weak made hand whether it's an Ace or something else.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said before, the weak made hands and Aces aren't calling $40 very often. So Villain doesn't need to bluff often for checking to have higher EV.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think a FD is part of his range; however, I dont think it tends to be as large as you think, unless you have a specific read on him. I also think that he may just check behind w/ a flush draw. So the combination of times you have a pair check behind and also the times the FD checks behind makes leading better imo. I dont remember reading in op if you had him noted as bets when checks to but that obv makes it easy. Also if I checked here it is def w/ intention of c/ring.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you think a FD checks behind is irrelevant because it's never calling a bet. Versus a flush draw, checking is better than betting (assuming you won't fold when he bets) unless you have some maniacal read that he'll always raise a lead but never bluff if you check (sic).

Whether or not a made hand checks is another question. But not many made hands are calling a bet either! The board is scary as hell!

I think that his bet is a bluff or some hand like two pair that is hoping I have a good Ace and can't fold. No one with one pair is betting here, and they are rarely calling a bet either.

Assign a range of hands for Villain. Then tell me how often those hands call a $40 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not the $40 that's in question, it's what part of his range calls the $80 on top....

i don't know, but he's not calling w/ much

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
All,

Most of you seem to be forgetting that a whiffed flush draw is a huge part of his range -- he bet $2 into a $6 pot on the flop and then just called the turn. Betting is pretty bad against a busted draw.

I checked to induce a bluff, but once he bet big, I thought that sets, 2pair, and other hands might be in his range, and pushed (effectively).

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear ya. I knew what your thinking was. But I think most sets and 2pair hands reraise the flop or turn. So I think his range is more of missed flush draw or weak made hand whether it's an Ace or something else.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said before, the weak made hands and Aces aren't calling $40 very often. So Villain doesn't need to bluff often for checking to have higher EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I'd bet 40. I'd bet closer to half the pot.

And I don't think a flush draw bets 40 much either. But then again this guy did, so who knows. I think most flush draws will bet closer to around half the pot as well.

However, I think that weak made hands call the river alot more than missed flush draws bet it.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

I didnt say it right. I guess I think his range is much wider then you and you think that a FD is prob like 80% of his range or something. I think his range is much wider. I just meant it that when you check to induce from a FD you are obv missing value from pairs that are checking behind, so if he has a FD I would want to know that he bets his FD a large portion of the time for me to give up that value from pairs. If he is one to check behind w/ his whiffed draws and we can not really extract anymore money this part of his range then I think leading v his pairs is far better. I think it is fairly read dependant, as if he is not one to call a river bet light here then I think inducing is better. However, if he is one to check behind pairs/missed FDs then you definately need to bet. And if he bets when checked to, I think a c/r is quite good. I lead in general here as I think you still get paid off by a lot of As.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

Flop C/R is ugly, bloating pot OOP is silly with marginal holdings is silly IMO.

Turn is obviously standard, based on flop and hand play.

River C/R is good, missed FD, value betting deuce, etc. For all the people who say what will he call with, he's calling with a deuce always, and other random stuff sometimes. OP has the 2nd nuts for christ sake.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop C/R is ugly, bloating pot OOP is silly with marginal holdings is silly IMO.

Turn is obviously standard, based on flop and hand play.

River C/R is good, missed FD, value betting deuce, etc. For all the people who say what will he call with, he's calling with a deuce always, and other random stuff sometimes. OP has the 2nd nuts for christ sake.

[/ QUOTE ]

doh! didn't see the deuce bigalo! good point about getting value from the gigalo...

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop C/R is ugly, bloating pot OOP is silly with marginal holdings is silly IMO.

Turn is obviously standard, based on flop and hand play.

River C/R is good, missed FD, value betting deuce, etc. For all the people who say what will he call with, he's calling with a deuce always, and other random stuff sometimes. OP has the 2nd nuts for christ sake.

[/ QUOTE ]

doh! didn't see the deuce bigalo! good point about getting value from the gigalo...

[/ QUOTE ]

not too many hands have a deuce on the river given previous action.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

Meh, I don't really like c/r-ing this flop, but I can see why you did it. I generally call flop and lead turn.

I think your river play is pretty sexy. Missed clubs will bet here, as will 2pairs/sets/etc. Your hand is really disguised.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Meh, I don't really like c/r-ing this flop, but I can see why you did it. I generally call flop and lead turn.

I think your river play is pretty sexy. Missed clubs will bet here, as will 2pairs/sets/etc. Your hand is really disguised.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you think 2pairs and sets raise the turn?

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Meh, I don't really like c/r-ing this flop, but I can see why you did it. I generally call flop and lead turn.

I think your river play is pretty sexy. Missed clubs will bet here, as will 2pairs/sets/etc. Your hand is really disguised.

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do you think 2pairs and sets raise the turn?

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Meh, given his flop play, it leads me to believe he is semi passive, donkish. Given his flop play, no, I don't really think he raises the turn.

BTW, I forgot to add, I think the river is a c/f if we do not hit our straight.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

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Meh, I don't really like c/r-ing this flop, but I can see why you did it. I generally call flop and lead turn.

I think your river play is pretty sexy. Missed clubs will bet here, as will 2pairs/sets/etc. Your hand is really disguised.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you think 2pairs and sets raise the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
Meh, given his flop play, it leads me to believe he is semi passive, donkish. Given his flop play, no, I don't really think he raises the turn.

BTW, I forgot to add, I think the river is a c/f if we do not hit our straight.

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Ugh. Given how often (and how profitably) a busted draw can bluff here, I'd rather block/fold.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Meh, I don't really like c/r-ing this flop, but I can see why you did it. I generally call flop and lead turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's be clear here: I wasn't planning on c/ring this flop, I was planning on c/cing a normal bet and leading the turn if it was heads-up, c/cing sometimes 3-ways, c/folding often 3-ways, bet/folding sometimes 3-ways.

Basically, my hand is very MEH on the flop.

But, seriously, guys, when Villians whip out the bumper sticker that says "I'M ON A DRAW OR HAVE A VERY WEAK HAND!" and plaster it on their foreheads, you've gotta use that info. I can raise here to very cheaply drive out any weak draws that the other player has (my hand isn't strong enough that I want multiple callers with weak draws), and get it heads up with the very probably flush draw.

Re: OK, so I don\'t play many limped pots. BB Special.
 

I really like it, although I would only call the river against most opponents.

dardo