50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

UB 50/100 NL Hold'em

Random Player A is at seat 0 with $4648.
Hero is at seat 3 with $12034.50.
Random Player B is at seat 5 with $13425.
Random Player C is at seat 6 with $9100.
Mahatma is at seat 7 with $17187.
The button is at seat 5.

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG Folds, Hero raises to $350, Button folds, SB folds, BB (Mahatma) calls

Flop: ($750) 10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Mahatma checks. Hero bets $500. Mahatma calls.

Turn: ($1750) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Mahatma bets $1700. Hero calls.

River: ($5150) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Mahatma goes all-in for $14587. Hero?

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

forgive me, but is this even worth discussing?

insta-call

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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forgive me, but is this even worth discussing?

insta-call

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What do you put him on that calls flop and turn and pushes river that makes this an insta-call...?

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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forgive me, but is this even worth discussing?

insta-call

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What do you put him on that calls flop and turn and pushes river that makes this an insta-call...?

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I know this is gonna sound idiotic, but my reasoning is basically "I have top 2 against mahatma, who is very capable of doing this with very wide range of hands from bluff, worse 2 pair, and set" if he has a set, so be it but my hand is likely to be the favorite.

I guess a lot still depends on how hero/mahatma were getting along in previous hands though.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

an aside: do you ever raise turn here?

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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an aside: do you ever raise turn here?

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whenever you bet/raise, think if it'll get a call from worse hands or fold out better hands. if it does neither, then it's a bad bet/raise.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

Depends. Is Mahatma still tilting and bluff happy? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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I know this is gonna sound idiotic, but my reasoning is basically "I have top 2 against mahatma, who is very capable of doing this with very wide range of hands from bluff, worse 2 pair, and set" if he has a set, so be it but my hand is likely to be the favorite.

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I don't think your reasoning sounds idiotic at all. I'm sure I'd call there, but that might be the result of my aversion to laying down big hands. I'm just curious why you didn't put QJ (the nuts) in his range. Would he not play QJ in this manner, too?

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

If this is from this week Id prob. fold, as this is usually the nuts, last week this meant big bluff LOL.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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I know this is gonna sound idiotic, but my reasoning is basically "I have top 2 against mahatma, who is very capable of doing this with very wide range of hands from bluff, worse 2 pair, and set" if he has a set, so be it but my hand is likely to be the favorite.

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I don't think your reasoning sounds idiotic at all. I'm sure I'd call there, but that might be the result of my aversion to laying down big hands. I'm just curious why you didn't put QJ (the nuts) in his range. Would he not play QJ in this manner, too?

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diddn't even see that because I'm a bad reader. he could very well play QJ in this manner, it's mahatma.. who knows damn it.

it must be cool being a "he could have anything guy". but sadly, I'm afraid to try out his style at fear of losing money. I wish there were a more text book approach to learning the style.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

When hero calls 1700 on the turn what does mahatma think hero has?..
AK would be likely here i think. Maybe K-Q, K-J (or weaker), but isn´t better to make a reraise on turn in that case as to define his strenght (if mahatma calls hero is obviusly beat and can fold no matter what mahatma bets on the river but can get a check from tp or ak) and prevent mahatma from valuebetting the river and thus get a cheaper showdown? With A-K hero can call turn with the idea of calling a pottsize bet, raising a small bet (for value) or valuebetting a check on the river.

I assume mahatma knows this..

The other hands mahatma considers is K-10 and 10-10
If hero made a set of tens, then there is likely a raise on the turn from hero. (Or if mahatma makes these allin plays on river often a call would be better, but then the call on the river with ak would also be auotomatic. I´m assuming mahatma doesnt make the plays often enough).
Anyway these hands are far more less likely than A-K, K-Q, K-J. (And if mahatma holds Q-J it´s more likely for him to believe hero holds A-K)

I think ther´s a good chance mahatma interprets the turn call as A-K and with that in mind it´s hard to pull a big bluff. Is he capable of bluffing though he suspects u have A-K?

Conclusion: Mahatma has Q-J making a straight

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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it must be cool being a "he could have anything guy". but sadly, I'm afraid to try out his style at fear of losing money. I wish there were a more text book approach to learning the style.

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I'm not a cash-game NL expert, but folding top-2 to a player known for his proclivity to overbet a wide variety of hands seems to be a huge mistake to me. If people regularly fold AK to Mahatma in this spot, I'm beginning to understand why he's so succesful. I liked it that you suggested insta-call, since I expect posters on this forum to say "fold" as often as "call" and the latter makes more sense to me.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

FOLD

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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FOLD

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Good point. In fact, why even play AK in the first place?

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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Conclusion: Mahatma has Q-J making a straight

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I've never seen such a simple conclusion derive from such a convoluted analysis (culminating here: "Anyway these hands are far more less likely than A-K, K-Q, K-J. (And if mahatma holds Q-J it´s more likely for him to believe hero holds A-K)"

You're assuming a whole bunch of stuff about what's going on in Mahatma's mind and how he perceives your play, when all you need to concentrate on is this: You're against a guy who just made an allin-overbet into a pot where you hold top-2 pair. Your opponent is well known to push a wide variety of hands here, many of which are not the nuts and dont have you beat. I really don't understand how people can advocate a fold here.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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FOLD

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Good point. In fact, why even play AK in the first place?

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lmao, no way on earth am i folding this to him. as an aside, there may be a reason i am not playing in that game. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

i would fold the river without thinking about it much.

fim

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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i would fold the river without thinking about it much.

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Can you explain to me why that doesn't constitute textbook weak-tight play?

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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FOLD

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Good point. In fact, why even play AK in the first place?

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lmao, no way on earth am i folding this to him. as an aside, there may be a reason i am not playing in that game. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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you guys dont get it.

he is not value betting.

he is either bluffing and has dick... or he has the nuts.

on this board, he has the nuts more often then not.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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he is either bluffing and has dick... or he has the nuts.

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So he never has KT, K3, K5, A3, A5, and AT (etc) in addition to the times he's bluffing? If I knew many of my opponents would fold AK to my allin, I'd be pushing those hands as well as many 1-pair hands in Mahatma's seat.

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on this board, he has the nuts more often then not.

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What is it about this board that makes the nuts more likely? I'm not disareeing with you necessarily, I'm just curious why you make the claim.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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Conclusion: Mahatma has Q-J making a straight

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I've never seen such a simple conclusion derive from such a convoluted analysis (culminating here: "Anyway these hands are far more less likely than A-K, K-Q, K-J. (And if mahatma holds Q-J it´s more likely for him to believe hero holds A-K)"

You're assuming a whole bunch of stuff about what's going on in Mahatma's mind and how he perceives your play, when all you need to concentrate on is this: You're against a guy who just made an allin-overbet into a pot where you hold top-2 pair. Your opponent is well known to push a wide variety of hands here, many of which are not the nuts and dont have you beat. I really don't understand how people can advocate a fold here.

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1. I didn´t mean that "it´s more likely for him to belive hero holds A-K", but simply that it´s more likely that hero holds A-K if mahatma himself holds Q-J.
Maybe it doesn´t matter.

2. If mahatma is well known to push a wide variety of hands then it could be like I earlier posted a call (read my reply again). I assumed he didn´t push allin overbets often enough to make the call EV+.
I think Hero only beats a bluff.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

I concur with Kane. This is not a value bet from two pair.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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he is either bluffing and has dick... or he has the nuts.

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So he never has KT, K3, K5, A3, A5, and AT (etc) in addition to the times he's bluffing? If I knew many of my opponents would fold AK to my allin, I'd be pushing those hands as well as many 1-pair hands in Mahatma's seat.

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on this board, he has the nuts more often then not.

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What is it about this board that makes the nuts more likely? I'm not disareeing with you necessarily, I'm just curious why you make the claim.

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it'd be unusual for hero to call with something that two pair beats. villian would want to value bet two pair here.

his line doesnt look like a set.

he is moving in on the A, a potentially strong card for hero.

i am sure he is bluffing some of the time here, but calling is probally -EV IMO.

youd just have to make a read in a situation like this.

but if mahatma thinks hero has AK, then i dont think he would bluff here. but still, the guy is fearless and will bluff any situation.

its tough. hes a tough cookie.

i fold.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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i would fold the river without thinking about it much.

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Can you explain to me why that doesn't constitute textbook weak-tight play?

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there's a solid chance hero has the nuts in this case, or at least a very strong hand that he'd like to see a showdown with.

prahlad is smart because he bluffs when a bluff is right. he's not some retard lag throwing a party. on a different board, this is a lameduck/pick up bluff for sure, here i think folding is in order.

fim

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

shane,

i side with kkf. i dont think this is a value bet especially because AK is a hand mahatma probably expects his opponents to have and to call with in this spot. I think if you call him and win he'll have a hand like J9o here or something. A river card like that completes so many hands the hero can have, it just seems so unlikely that mahatma is value betting a 2 pair on this board. Id even be surprised if he had a set, but thats just me.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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UB 50/100 NL Hold'em

Random Player A is at seat 0 with $4648.
Hero is at seat 3 with $12034.50.
Random Player B is at seat 5 with $13425.
Random Player C is at seat 6 with $9100.
Mahatma is at seat 7 with $17187.
The button is at seat 5.

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG Folds, Hero raises to $350, Button folds, SB folds, BB (Mahatma) calls

Flop: ($750) 10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Mahatma checks. Hero bets $500. Mahatma calls.

Turn: ($1750) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Mahatma bets $1700. Hero calls.

River: ($5150) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Mahatma goes all-in for $14587. Hero?

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Probably ought to raise that turn. Anyway the ace could be a scare card for a lot of your likely holdings so he could be bluffing because of that. On the other hand if he thinks you'd just call with AK on the turn his bet means QJ.

It's probably QJ. Save your ten grand.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

I think it is relatively close with SR and the texture of the specific game would dictate the call or fold.

Completely cold, with no in-game reads, I fold. This is exactly how he would play QJ.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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when all you need to concentrate on is this: You're against a guy who just made an allin-overbet into a pot where you hold top-2 pair. Your opponent is well known to push a wide variety of hands here, many of which are not the nuts and dont have you beat.

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I dont play that high (yet [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ) but this doesnt make sense.
Not many people can outplay Mahatma but many think in way described above. He is not an idiot and its probably impossible to figure out what he have here. What we know is that he overbet a pot 1.2xtimes so if we call it one time in two (slightly less often) we wont be bluffed out.
As other posters pointed out its either bluff or nuts; calling frequency indicated calling in almost 50% of cases to not be bluffed out of the hand; Villain is probably much better than us and is certainly better than us in this kind of situations; why not look at your watch and only make a call if number of seconds is 2xN.

Best wishes

(edited after seeing stack sizes)

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

So Results?

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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i would fold the river without thinking about it much.

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Can you explain to me why that doesn't constitute textbook weak-tight play?

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there's a solid chance hero has the nuts in this case, or at least a very strong hand that he'd like to see a showdown with.

prahlad is smart because he bluffs when a bluff is right. he's not some retard lag throwing a party. on a different board, this is a lameduck/pick up bluff for sure, here i think folding is in order.

fim

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BINGO. There's your correct analysis.. Searched through the entire thread and finally found some logic.

Prahlad knows when to bluff and knows what to push it on. When A-K, A-Q or a set is a real possibility for Hero here, Friedman isn't bluffing.

I'm nearly certain Prahlad has Q-J.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

Is he playing fast or super fast? Although he seems to be playing faster than usual of late, I think this is a fold.

He isn't value betting either, he has air, or a very, very good hand. Hero's hand is pretty well defined, and unless his hand reading is way off at the moment, PF should have a pretty good idea where he's at. This move on this board probably isnt a play, other textured boards would be different. Looks like QJ/set.


edit:
Then again, Ive seen him push on some boards where I thought it was quite obvious the other guy hit. Still think its a fold though.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

Are you guys who are laying down AK here also laying down AA?

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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Are you guys who are laying down AK here also laying down AA?

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Yeah I was thinking the same. either he is bluffing or he has QJ i can not imagine he would play a set like this.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

Actually.. A-A might be the only other hand I can see him playing this way.

He either has A-A or A-K, IMO. The way Hero played it, he has to be absolutely certain Hero doesn't have Q-J.

To "TheWorstPlayer"'s question on if we'd fold A-A here.. I'd never put myself in the position here with A-A.. I'd surely be all in on either the flop or turn with it.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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Are you guys who are laying down AK here also laying down AA?

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Yeah I was thinking the same. either he is bluffing or he has QJ i can not imagine he would play a set like this.

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Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. But if we're really laying down the second nuts to him here, when he is the most aggro overbettor in the game, wow - what power. It's a good thing I will never ever come close to sitting in this game. But if I were forced into OP's position, I think I'm pushing the turn. Just seems from railbirding that SR is pushing the river here around 80% of the time after leading into the pfr for full pot on the turn. Saw him do it in a similar spot for around $15K a day ago into a $5K pot with 63o. No hand, no draw whole way. Anyways...FWIW, I fold this river. With AA, too. QJ just seems too likely. Despite the fact that he can obviously make this play with a lot of bluffs.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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Actually.. A-A might be the only other hand I can see him playing this way.

He either has A-A or A-K, IMO. The way Hero played it, he has to be absolutely certain Hero doesn't have Q-J.

To "TheWorstPlayer"'s question on if we'd fold A-A here.. I'd never put myself in the position here with A-A.. I'd surely be all in on either the flop or turn with it.

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I think its teh same chance hero would play QJs like this has villian would play AA like this.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

Well obviously he either has the nuts or air, and he knows you have a big hand which you may or may not fold. So just think about what you would do, and then do the opposite. (for example, if you normally would call, fold, and if you normally fold, call) because Spirit Rock has probably figured you out and knows what you'll do, and he's either bluffing because he knows you'll fold AK or value-pushing because he knows you'll call with AK. so just do the opposite of what your play style dictates.

If you play against him a lot this hand is a pretty much routine coin-flip at the highest levels.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

Call. Of course you call. Folding is terrible.


Edit: Figured I was going to have to explain that sometime so here it is: This is not 5-10 6-max amateur hour against a bunch of nut-peddlers who like to "get wild" by semibluff-raising the turn once a night. This is hard-core aggressive shorthanded nosebleed no limit. Your default is to call. Against one of the most aggressive sane players in the game, who also has a hugely exploitable habit that he pushes all in way too often when he senses weaknes, you must call. If you do not make that call you really have to quit that game. If you have to think about it much it's time to end the night.

What were you thinking when you slowplayed your hand? Were you planning to fold when you hit? I am just trying not to throw up here thinking about this. No offense and all but DAMN. The advice in this thread is just .... sputtering ... awful.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

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Call. Of course you call. Folding is terrible.


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Thank you, Matt. That was my first thought, and then I read the responses to the thread and felt like I was in the [censored] Twilight Zone...

Mike

edit: I see you that you gave a little explanation as well. Here is my addendum to that. Part of the reason that this guy wins is because some people will actually fold here. Think about it this way. If you need more than top two to call an all-in here against this guy in a five-handed game, you're going to go broke before you have a chance to win a pot...

edit 2: I don't care if the actual result ends up being that Hero lost to QJ.

Re: 50/100 hand against mahatma at UB
 

Your advice is frightening, and very wrong.