I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

OOP when I'm not the PFR vs. a TAG. [censored], what do I do !?

No Limit Hold'em Ring Game (6 max) , 6 players
Blinds : $1/$2

Stacks:
UTG : $397.95
MP : $446.95
CO : $345.80
Button : $415.10
SB : $200
Hero : $266.85

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG limps, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $11</font>, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($34, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $25</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($84, 2 players)
Hero ????


Better flop action?

I don't like reraising preflop cuz it basically turns my hand into a bluff, though maybe that's not so bad. Same thing for check-raising the flop. If I get called I'm in a sick spot on the turn where I don't know if I'm beat or up against a draw.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

lead flop lead turn

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't like reraising preflop cuz it basically turns my hand into a bluff

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do people say that with tens? Where do you get this from?
The button raised and you're in the BB, RERAISE THAT [censored].

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

Mmm.. leading flop has to be wrong, I think.

Villain cbets almost 100% of the time so c-c flop gets him to put money in with a lot of hands he would just fold on the flop.

If I lead on the flop he'll raise sometimes with flush draws and hands like AKo and I have to fold to that, which is good for him.

If I lead on the flop he'll just fold things like 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] which are drawing nearly dead and would've cbet.

He will fold things like KQo which are drawing live, but he's incorrect to put money in with those so it's +EV to keep him in with those with a c-c.

So I don't see how leading the flop is good.

Leading the turn I can see definitely might be the best option there but it still kinda sucks.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]

The button raised and you're in the BB, RERAISE THAT [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, okay, maybe. Why? What would you do on a flop like this? Why should I reraise with TT rather than 22?

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The button raised and you're in the BB, RERAISE THAT [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, okay, maybe. Why? What would you do on a flop like this? Why should I reraise with TT rather than 22?

[/ QUOTE ]

because TT is most likely the best hand, it's for value, and there're lots of overcards for your ten.

It depends on how tight button is and UTG is. But I would almost never smooth call with tens in that spot.

I would also reraise 77+ ATs+ as a default

and I would lead the flop if I had reraised preflop, obviously

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]

because TT is most likely the best hand, it's for value, and there're lots of overcards for your ten.

(...)

and I would lead the flop if I had reraised preflop, obviously

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I actually want to learn here because I see winning players reraise TT and use this thought process and I don't get it. Raising "for value" only really matters when you can get to showdown. If villain will fold any worse hand, then betting for "value" does not exist and you're just bluffing. I don't think you can show down TT unimproved OOP very often and win a reraised pot, though you will once in a while.

Say you reraise preflop, cbet the flop and villain calls. The turn is the offsuit K. Now what?

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

because TT is most likely the best hand, it's for value, and there're lots of overcards for your ten.

(...)

and I would lead the flop if I had reraised preflop, obviously

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I actually want to learn here because I see winning players reraise TT and use this thought process and I don't get it. Raising "for value" only really matters when you can get to showdown. If villain will fold any worse hand, then betting for "value" does not exist and you're just bluffing. I don't think you can show down TT unimproved OOP very often and win a reraised pot, though you will once in a while.

Say you reraise preflop, cbet the flop and villain calls. The turn is the offsuit K. Now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically, if people are only calling you with hands that're JJ+ then you're not reraising nearly enough. A lot of players don't 3-bet enough preflop, mostly with only QQ, KK, AA and AK, making their reraises very transparent.

I get routinely called by hands like QKs or any pair.

And if I get called on flop and turn comes a king, I may bet again or checkraise allin. It's very opponent dependent, like any situation in poker.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

killian,

you rr TT preflop, flop comes 8 high, you cbet and get called, whats your plan if the turn is a complete blank?

you rr TT preflop, flop comes 8 high, you cbet and get raised, whats your plan?

(assume both villains are unknown and both flops have FD)

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]
killian,

you rr TT preflop, flop comes 8 high, you cbet and get called, whats your plan if the turn is a complete blank?

you rr TT preflop, flop comes 8 high, you cbet and get raised, whats your plan?

(assume both villains are unknown and both flops have FD)

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf?

That's like saying "how do you play poker"

What kind of questions are those?

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

kilillan,

uhh, they're pretty simple questions, and are spots you'll get faced with a lot when you rr TT preflop.

What I'm trying to gather is whether there are times and how often you will felt TT after rr preflop and not flopping a set.

Personally, I think that rr TT OOP is a fine play as long as you can get to showdown with it a lot, as then you are actually "seeing" the value you gain by rr preflop. If however if both the examples I gave abot you are c/f and folding, then I fail to see the "value" you get in rr TT preflop

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

gee, you shouldnt reraise TT preflop because youll face hard decisions. You really taught me.

Asking what I do in every situation just shows your experience as a player in my opinion. Everything depends on the players, your table image, their table image and the flow of the game.

Not reraising tens preflop ever is really stupid. And is a constant reminder I'm in SSNL

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

Kilillan,

I'm asking for logic, not to be insulted

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kilillan,

I'm asking for logic, not to be insulted

[/ QUOTE ]

Then don't give me erroneous logic for not reraising tens preflop.

What does "Personally, I think that rr TT OOP is a fine play as long as you can get to showdown with it a lot, as then you are actually "seeing" the value you gain by rr preflop."
Even mean?

Reraising tens preflop isn't just for value, it's to build a pot with the best hand and attempt to eliminate the poor position with the hand.

Your logic doesn't make any sense, it seems you just want some kind of script to play poker to

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]

Your logic doesn't make any sense, it seems you just want some kind of script to play poker to

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, well this is disappointing. If anyone who reraises TT preflop can explain why, I'd be very interested in hearing.

Obviously reraising TT preflop in the higher more aggressive games is correct because you will often be taking it to showdown unimproved and winning. Eg. on the original flop if you cbet TT and villain shoves, you can often call correctly at NL$5000 or whatever. At these levels that's a very bad call against average TAGs.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your logic doesn't make any sense, it seems you just want some kind of script to play poker to

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, well this is disappointing. If anyone who reraises TT preflop can explain why, I'd be very interested in hearing.

Obviously reraising TT preflop in the higher more aggressive games is correct because you will often be taking it to showdown unimproved and winning. Eg. on the original flop if you cbet TT and villain shoves, you can often call correctly at NL$5000 or whatever. At these levels that's a very bad call against average TAGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play near NL5000

and I played a huge amount of hands at NL200 as a decent winner, reraising fairly liberally preflop. I don't understand why you wouldn't reraise preflop here, honestly, could you explain that to me?

And don't say he's going to fold all but JJ+. Because if that's the case then reraise any half/playable hand.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

Kilillan: I'm also interested in this hand.

I started experimenting with re-raising a lot more liberally in position because I find many players don't play back in a 3-bet pot and in position their hand becomes very transparrent.

OOP though, you don't see their actions before you have to make yours. I think re-raising anything is +ev if the guy will only continue with an overpair or set, but you can't do it too much or they'll start playing back, and TT will occasionally flop a set and stack the overs, and it also doesn't make many second-best hands.

cbloom: Not sure where I read this, but "all pf bets are semi-bluffs".

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

cbloom, I know what you are saying, and Killian, I understand what you are saying as well. You are seeming to misunderstand each other.

Cbloom is suggesting that re raising preflop puts his money in as a bluff because he will be put into a lot of tough decisions on the flop/turn/river because his hand is vulnerable on every street. He feels his bet preflop is a bluff and might be bloating the pot which may force him to fold against a TAG when he is OOP and doesnt improve or an overcard appears, right?

And killian is saying that we most likely have the best hand and should re raise preflop for value. We should bet the flop because we most likely have the best hand, and that we will be put in even tougher spots post flop because we didnt reraise preflop.

I think that cbloom is missing the idea that he will indeed fold preflop sometimes so we get value in reraising and sometimes he will call preflop and fold to our cbet so thats also very profitable. On top of that sometimes we will flop a set and that's obv a very profitable situation as well especially when theres already a ton of money in the pot before the flop. Also, if we bet on this flop after RR'ing preflop and he raises, what hands do we put him on? Most of that range beats us so folding is probably okay.

I'm with Killian, reraise preflop and bet the flop. As played, CR flop.

-Tickner

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

There's some good threads in MSNL about this:

One and two.

It's been awhile since I read them but one of the concepts that I took from them was that raising/reraising (especially OOP) just because you think you have the best hand is bad news bears.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's some good threads in MSNL about this:

One and two.

It's been awhile since I read them but one of the concepts that I took from them was that raising/reraising (especially OOP) just because you think you have the best hand is bad news bears.

[/ QUOTE ]

like to point out both of those threads are about raising OOP, not re/raising OOP.


[ QUOTE ]
1) Reraising Preflop

Many midstakes players have a very tight reraising range. They will reraise their big hands, and even though their range is so slim, they still make far more money on these hands than they should be making, given how well defined their hands tend to be in certain spots. These same players are content to just call preflop with certain hands, and even though their decision to call may be +EV, they don't even consider their third option, which is to reraise. In certain spots calling may even be your worst option. When you are on the SB facing a button raise or even button facing a CO raise, what do you accomplish cold calling a raise with the majority of your hands?

Sure, calling may be +EV in some of those situations but many don't even consider the +EV situation a reraise would set up for them and how much greater that EV would be than that of calling (the same thing often applies in many spots as far as raising vs overlimping, where both may be +EV but raising may be a much better option). You likely have a +EV situation right there preflop, and if you get called you will often have another +EV situation postflop, even disregarding your actual hand. By reraising you gain momentum, you overrepresent your hand and force them to make a hand, and your reraising range obviously increases, both decreasing the implied odds of your opponents calling and trying to crack your big hand, and increasing your action on your big hands as observant players will realize that you are capable of reraising light. The higher up in stakes you go, the more observant players you encounter.

As far as calling, with clunkier hands like KQ/AJ you will often be folding the best hand when you miss (which will be most of the time), and even when you do get a favorable top pair flop, you will often be unsure of your hand if you are facing a lot of pressure in certain spots. Your hand carries reverse implied odds. With more deceptive hands your actual implied odds to call the LP preflop raise are generally very poor, as LP's raising ranges tend to be very wide. You are also going to be missing the majority of the time, or getting forced off of your more marginal hands (which will often be the best hand) by aggressive players. In both cases you also lack initiative. You have to ask yourself what you are really accomplishing by calling with some these hands.

Just about all of the biggest winners in the 10/20 game on Party have a very "opened up" game. To be even more specific, I believe 4 of the top 5 have close to 30/20 stats, and one is an amazing 47/29. They are awesome post-flop players, and their analysis of situations is dead-on the majority of the time. One other thing that they are very good at doing is spotting and setting up profitable situations preflop. Over and over and over and over. The reraising ranges of some of these top players are astounding. These players are squeezing each other left and right, and have absolutely no problem reraising/rereraising light. You will see full stacks go in with relative garbage. If you didn't know any better, you may chock it up as donk-on-donk violence, when the hand may have just went down between the 2 biggest winners in that game. And believe me, fireworks do fly when they are at the table together. And they aren't the only ones you will see this kind of action from, either. Their preflop game is so much different than what the average midstakes player is used to that it can really be amazing. Their variance shoots up, but the number of +EV situations they are involved in does too, and of course their profits do as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

here's a very good quote from this thread http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&amp;vc=1

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]

I think that cbloom is missing the idea that he will indeed fold preflop sometimes so we get value in reraising and sometimes he will call preflop and fold to our cbet so thats also very profitable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, of course I'm not missing that, and that's awesome, but that works just as well with 23o.

Also Kilillan of course he calls *preflop* with much more than JJ+. My question is how can you *show down* TT and win. I don't know how I'm not being clear.

Kilillan so far as I can see what you're saying is "Your hand is probably best, and he will probably fold, so you should bet/raise". I think that's very simplistic/incorrect thinking which is not taking into account his calling range and situations on future streets. Correct if that's not what you're saying. However, lots of winning players seem to think that way. It's almost like aggression does magic things to make you win and I'm trying to understand that better.

Anyway, think of it this way :

Button opens, you're in the BB, you reraise with XX.
Button will usually fold, okay.
Say he calls, flop is whatever.
You cbet.
Usually he folds, okay, you make money.
But this time he calls.
Turn is whatever.

What now? You've represented a very strong hand. Say you check, he pots it. Holy big pot you need a big hand to continue.

Maybe you don't check - you bet pot.
Is that a bluff or a value bet?
Unless you have a very very big hand, it's a bluff.

I would say that if "XX" is "TT" that's a bluff on the turn, and it pretty much may as well be 23o.

It's well known from the Shania concept that you should play very hard with your very best hands (your hands which are not bluffs) and also with the very best hands that you would otherwise have folded (perhaps something like 67s here). Your other hands you should not play like bluffs.

Anyway, I still feel rather lost when I play a hand here not as a bluff and not just for set value, so whatever.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

If the button is loose, you should reraise. If the button is really tight on the button than you should call.

Dbitel -
If you reraise and get called on an 8 high board. And the button calls. Then usually check-fold turn even on a blank unless the bet is unusually small.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

As played I can either see leading turn or check-folding as fine. I think check-fold might be better.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]
like to point out both of those threads are about raising OOP, not re/raising OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya, so i'll stick to not posting.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kilillan,

I'm asking for logic, not to be insulted

[/ QUOTE ]

Kilillan, I think we probably play nicer in SSNL than the forums you're used to; don't be so quick to attack others while defending yourself, we're all trying to learn.

I think cbloom's post just now makes a really good point and I'm curious what you think about it.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Button opens, you're in the BB, you reraise with XX.
Button will usually fold, okay.
Say he calls, flop is whatever.
You cbet.
Usually he folds, okay, you make money.
But this time he calls.
Turn is whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]
You gain a ton of value both preflop and on the flop, just by being agressive.

My gut feeling is that if he calls both a preflop RR and calls the flop, and then you check to him, hes betting a large majority of the time.

RR preflop, bet flop, check turn, isn't a line I ever like, but sometimes we have to check fold the turn. Other times, we just check raise it for value. I dont know exactly why, so this might sound like a dummy post, because this really depends on so many factors that its impossible to just state what the actions of our opponents were and then say "this is what you do and its correct/incorrect".

Hopefully someone else can give a better anwser to that one.

But our hand is NOT = 23o, because our hand actually have value, whereas 23o almost never has any value. This hand is the same as 23o if you never hit showdown, but in a RR'ed pot with a half decent hand, you shouldn't hit showdown 0% or its always a bluff. Accoring to what you are saying, KK here is a bluff too because he might have a set!

I see what you are saying. I play a real laggy style of game, so we might be thinking on two different levels. But TT isn't a bluff here by any means. If anything its a semi-bluff that we arent afraid to showdown occasinally, but in the mean time we will steal the pot preflop and on the flop.

hope my rambling made some sort of sense.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think that cbloom is missing the idea that he will indeed fold preflop sometimes so we get value in reraising and sometimes he will call preflop and fold to our cbet so thats also very profitable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, of course I'm not missing that, and that's awesome, but that works just as well with 23o.

Also Kilillan of course he calls *preflop* with much more than JJ+. My question is how can you *show down* TT and win. I don't know how I'm not being clear.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll start by saying I really like a reraise here preflop. I don't understand your logic. Do you really need to showdown this call to make money? You don't need to get to showdown to get value out of a hand.

[ QUOTE ]

Kilillan so far as I can see what you're saying is "Your hand is probably best, and he will probably fold, so you should bet/raise". I think that's very simplistic/incorrect thinking which is not taking into account his calling range and situations on future streets. Correct if that's not what you're saying. However, lots of winning players seem to think that way. It's almost like aggression does magic things to make you win and I'm trying to understand that better.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's never incorrect to raise with the best hand (ie. it is never -EV). You seem to be saying you want to see a good flop before you commit too much cash. You are losing value. This kind of thinking is simular to a common mistake limit players make when they don't raise preflop with AK, and wait for the flop to make a bet.

The fact is you have equity in the pot, a button raise doesn't signify a hand range that puts you as an underdog.

You are also OOP, with a difficult hand to play. It's a lot easier to play a hand OOP when you have control. It also gives you fold equity against better hands.


[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, think of it this way :

Button opens, you're in the BB, you reraise with XX.
Button will usually fold, okay.
Say he calls, flop is whatever.
You cbet.
Usually he folds, okay, you make money.
But this time he calls.
Turn is whatever.

What now? You've represented a very strong hand. Say you check, he pots it. Holy big pot you need a big hand to continue.

Maybe you don't check - you bet pot.
Is that a bluff or a value bet?
Unless you have a very very big hand, it's a bluff.

I would say that if "XX" is "TT" that's a bluff on the turn, and it pretty much may as well be 23o.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very general example, and this is where reads and knowing your opponent come into play. I can't comment on this because you are way to general in your description. It reminds me of the generic questions they use in the Full Tilt adds.

"You have AK in early position, what do you do?"

No offense but I think we can appretiate that this is a difficult hand to play, and you don't always play it the same way... for various reasons.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

I really like a flop c/r here, considering that cbloom is not asking about preflop I won't delve into that, though I reraise preflop most of the time. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

I think reraising preflop or just calling are both fine.

Its easier to play if you reraise cuz if you are called after cbet that flop you are probebly done with your hand. But its not the same as 23o because some of the time the hand will be checked down and go to showdown and have some value.

On to the actual hand.
flop c/c is good.
turn i think i just c/f most of the time. But he will probebly fire alot with air on this turn since an A or a K on the turn is a great card for him to bluff.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

RR-ing pf and calling PF are both fine I think. The only problem with rr-ing pf with TT is that your taking a relatively good showdown hand (very often on alot of boards) and turning it into a bluff by the time the money gets in. RR-ing PF makes it very hard to go to showdown and actually think your good.

I think that if your rr-ing PF, you should generally think about what your future actions will be if your opponent calls your c-bet on a blank flop. Are you generally pushing the turn against a TAG opponent, something you would do with AA? Or are you c/f-ing the turn, as you might with AK? These are some things to think about.

I think that if you call PF, then c/c-ing this flop is generally good. c/r is fine for value, but I'm not sure I see too many hands that a TAG calls our c/r with that we beat on the flop. Against a donkey, c/r-ing would be fine I think. If your RR-ing, obv. bet the flop and probably take it from there. I like the c/c flop line if you flat call PF.

Turn is probably a c/f. I don't mind the c/c c/f line, sometimes even c/c c/c c/f line. But in this case, if villan bets this turn, we'll still have tons of pressure on us, and AK just got there (not limiting villan's range to AK, but its certainly a possibility). This turn card sucks alot.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

Check/minraise the flop is kinda sexy. For value obviously.

The only bad thing about check/fold on that turn is that it's such a good double barrelling card but meh, watchagonnadoaboutit.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

maybe you only beat a bluff with TT, but you dont want to catch bluffs with low PPs because they likely have overcard outs

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

still pretty hungover, so maybe I'll chime in a bit more tomorrow or later today, but

[ QUOTE ]
What does "Personally, I think that rr TT OOP is a fine play as long as you can get to showdown with it a lot, as then you are actually "seeing" the value you gain by rr preflop."
Even mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

what that means is that if you see a showdown with TT in a rr pot UI 0% of the time, then it is essentially a bluff. The value of the cards mean nothing (except that you can flop a set 1 in 8 times). Un fact, its not just about getting to sohwdown, we have to get to showdown, UI AND WIN over 0% of the time, or our hand is a bluff.

Now my problem is that whenI rr TT preflop (especially OOP) I get to showdown UI and win just about never. If you are some1 who CAN get to showdown and win UI often, then rr is ofc fine, but thats just not me (and I suspect not a lot of players here either)

FWIW, I'm not playing TT for set value, I'll continue most the time even when it hasnt flopped a set and I'm not just rr JJ+/AK. I'd a lot rather reraise a hand like 67s that has a lot less showdown value.


Hince,

[ QUOTE ]
It's never incorrect to raise with the best hand (ie. it is never -EV)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but we don't know his exact range of hands. Obv we are ahead of his range, but just because you are ahead of some1s range, doesn't mean raising is best and in fact if you are only slightly ahead of some1s range, it could be that raising is -EV

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]

It's never incorrect to raise with the best hand (ie. it is never -EV)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is simply not true. Should I open shove TT preflop? I'm way ahead of everyone's range. Of course I'm not ahead of their calling range and it's -EV. There are also plenty of cases where I can raise a hand like that which is ahead of their range but will only get called by better hands. That's what we call "turning your hand into a bluff". Furthermore, the "showdown value" of a hand does not matter if you can't get to showdown, and there are often cases where you believe you are ahead of someone's range but still folding is the most +EV decision. (an example might be if you have something like 88 on a 7-high flop with flush draw, you bet out and villain min raises in position. You're ahead of his range but should probably just fold).

I agree with Tickner that reraising TT preflop you're basically turning your hand into 22 (it's a semibluff, you'd love to hit a set), but TT has the added bonus that you just might be able to get to showdown and win UI if your villain does something wierd and lets you.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

hm - this is an interesting discussion. I tend to rr pf w/ TT if everyone folds and there is a CO or button raise. I was just going to type out a bunch of my reasons for doing so, but a hand like 23o would also qualify w/ those reasons... hmm - maybe I should just start rr'ing 23o OOP whenever I would rr w/ TT OOP and see how that pans out.

I'm still not fully convinced to not rr TT pf OOP, but I really haven't seen a good argument FOR re-raising TT OOP.

I think rr'ing TT OOP becomes profitable only when you start raising in that spot w/ even lesser hands for meta-game purposes, however, saying that, I don't know how profitable that will be at SSNL.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

[ QUOTE ]
... but TT has the added bonus that you just might be able to get to showdown and win UI if your villain does something wierd and lets you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but also keep in mind that if we let villian push us off our hand too often when we are ahead, then it's a very big mistake. A lot of people make this mistake, because its so hard to determine if you are ahead or not. In time, you learn how to use your judgement to figure out the times you should goto showdown and the times you shouldn't and its way too hard for me to explain here.

I suppose if you dont play TT well post flop, calling preflop instead of RR'ing might be a better option.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

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It's never incorrect to raise with the best hand (ie. it is never -EV)

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This is simply not true. Should I open shove TT preflop? I'm way ahead of everyone's range. Of course I'm not ahead of their calling range and it's -EV. There are also plenty of cases where I can raise a hand like that which is ahead of their range but will only get called by better hands. That's what we call "turning your hand into a bluff". Furthermore, the "showdown value" of a hand does not matter if you can't get to showdown, and there are often cases where you believe you are ahead of someone's range but still folding is the most +EV decision. (an example might be if you have something like 88 on a 7-high flop with flush draw, you bet out and villain min raises in position. You're ahead of his range but should probably just fold).

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Did I say anything about being ahead of his range? No.. I don't think I did... I said we had the best hand. My quote is always true.

If he plays his hand face up, and you are ahead. Pushing is +EV (although it may not be the most +EV play).

Since he isn't playing his hand face up we put him on a range of hands. If we are ahead of that range it makes sense to raise an amount that will get called by lesser hands. We want to maximize our return, so when ahead we should be more willing to put in more money.

We win more money if we push our edges, and maximize our chances of winning a pot. Reraise preflop does that in both ways.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

interesting thread. killian, you still haven't responded with lines that will get you to showdown (and win often enough to be +EV) after repopping TT oop. your previous responses, in my opinion, have been copouts.

all,

do you repop it in position?

cbloom,

there's a pretty similar discussion here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&amp;vc=1

i think you are dead on when you say that there's value in 3betting with TT in tougher, more aggressive games, but not really at 200 nl. i play in a home game with some other 2+2ers. we're all pretty much screwing around and playing looser than normal, but the quality of play is overall a lot higher than the average 200 nl table at party poker. these games have enough reraising with junk and enough thinking players that usually, reraising with 99, TT, JJ, etc. makes much more sense than calling because they'll often win at a showdown ui. i'm sure this is the case to an even greater extent in bigger games online too, because the players are better, the players are thinking, the players are aggressive, and the players will try to put you on hands and have a more accute understanding of what's going on when you're 3betting light.

200 nl is a donkfest, however, and in my opinion 3betting oop with TT does essentially turn your hand into a bluff *against the average villain.* i've done a bunch of thinking about this, and the average villain at this level just doesn't play well enough for us to consistently win at showdown after reraising preflop with TT.

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

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interesting thread. killian, you still haven't responded with lines that will get you to showdown (and win often enough to be +EV) after repopping TT oop. your previous responses, in my opinion, have been copouts.

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I'm not killian, but I completely disagree. It's a difficult hand to play, and it's asking too much of him to create every possible scenario and how to play it. This hand has alot of things to consider when not playing strictly for set value.

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200 nl is a donkfest, however, and in my opinion 3betting oop with TT does essentially turn your hand into a bluff *against the average villain.* i've done a bunch of thinking about this, and the average villain at this level just doesn't play well enough for us to consistently win at showdown after reraising preflop with TT.

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This makes no sense at all. So against worse opponents you make LESS money with TT????

And how is TT a bluff? You have a premium hand. You reraised. Where is the bluff?

Re: I dont know how to play mid pairs
 

your bluffing in the sense that no hands calling an allin on the turn or whatever are ones that we beat in rr-ed pots. really only 99.

say vs a tag, he opens, you rr, he calls.
flop comes blanks, you cbet he calls. turn blank. are you stacking off here? what possible hands do you beat at this point? pushing here is definitely a bluff for me (though often i will just c/f). if your betting this turn for value, i think you underestimate villan's calling range here.