Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

People are posting all these elaborate ways to transfer money, but why not simply sign up for a bank account overseas and have that set up with neteller/firepay? Then you simply wire from one bank account to another.

The bank overseas isn't monitoring gaming, and the transfer from one bank to another won't have any gaming flags for US banks.

I know little about this, but surely somewhere you can both sign up for an account overseas online and be able to wire money online or even write a check to yourself.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

that isnt the problem, it isnt hard for a dedicated player to deposit, but the average fish wont spend the necessary time setting up an offshore account jsut to play poker, therein greatly decreasing the influx of american poker money

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

That's exactly what I have been telling everyone. There's no need to pack your bags and move to Canada or Europe. As long as they're not going after individual people it doesn't matter where you play your poker.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

Many years ago I thought the average player wouldn't go through the hassle of setting up a neteller account. I always had to transfer funds to friends and they'd give me cash, because they didnt want to go through the hassle. If there was a quick an easy way to create another bank account, I don't see how it's much different than creating a neteller account. Heck, there are tons and TONS of people who don't trust neteller/firepay. Everyone who starts up with poker wonders if it's safe. I bet many people might actually find this a better option.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

A foregn account seem like it would work unless Neteller started screening for SSN or whatever the equivalent is in other countries. Then you would need an actual contact overseas.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

The problem with that is that the fish won't bother doing it. The games will quickly dry up. You'll be playing only against other professionals.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

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It won't be illegal to deposit to neteller, as i understand. what will be illegal is to transfer between neteller and your US bank account.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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The problem with that is that the fish won't bother doing it. The games will quickly dry up. You'll be playing only against other professionals.

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How many times was this said about neteller when it first started? No one wanted to bother doing it, now it's the backbone of the current industry.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

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It won't be illegal to deposit to neteller, as i understand. what will be illegal is to transfer between neteller and your US bank account.

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How? Neteller has "authentic" (i.e. non-poker related uses). How is transfering from/to my bank account to/from Neteller going to be illegal any more than some Swiss bank account?

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The problem with that is that the fish won't bother doing it. The games will quickly dry up. You'll be playing only against other professionals.

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I'm not too worried about this, but then again, I'm a SSNL player right now. There will be both losing AND winning players that stop playing, just more losing than winning. But the thing is, this doesn't affect the world, it only affects the U.S., and there are still plenty of fish in other countries. Yes, the games will certainly be tougher, but I don't think they will be nearly as much as you imply.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

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It won't be illegal to deposit to neteller, as i understand. what will be illegal is to transfer between neteller and your US bank account.

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How? Neteller has "authentic" (i.e. non-poker related uses). How is transfering from/to my bank account to/from Neteller going to be illegal any more than some Swiss bank account?

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I believe 99% of netellers business is gaming. The banks won't be fooled here, they'll just ban neteller. Maryland has already banned neteller for years.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

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It won't be illegal to deposit to neteller, as i understand. what will be illegal is to transfer between neteller and your US bank account.

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How? Neteller has "authentic" (i.e. non-poker related uses). How is transfering from/to my bank account to/from Neteller going to be illegal any more than some Swiss bank account?

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I believe 99% of netellers business is gaming. The banks won't be fooled here, they'll just ban neteller. Maryland has already banned neteller for years.

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Yes, but 99% isn't 100%. Also, I don't think Maryland specifically banned Neteller, they banned all banks that do not have an office in Maryland.

EDIT: And the Maryland banks didn't ban Neteller, Maryland did. Neteller abides by not accepting any transactions from there.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

One thing is perfectly clear to me. That is that nobody here knows what the hell will be illegal and what wont. Youre all just speculating and guessing.

Most think withdrawals are legal
Most think deposits are illegal

Some think transfers between your bank and Neteller are illegal (which happens to contradict the fact that withdrawals are suppossedly legal still)

Numerous times Ive gotten checks from Neteller (instead of direct dspoiting to my bank account). Nowhere on the check does it indicate its from Neteller or any gambling entity.

Can your bank still tell its from Neteller from some code?

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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One thing is perfectly clear to me. That is that nobody here knows what the hell will be illegal and what wont. Youre all just speculating and guessing.

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Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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Can your bank still tell its from Neteller from some code?

[/ QUOTE ] Look at your checkbook. See that series of 9 numbers before the first gap starting at the bottom left. That's the code, unique to each bank, financial institution etc.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

If Neteller is banned, how are you planning on getting your money out of there?

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

Neteller has branched out to buying up actual banks in China and other countries in Asia. They are a legitimate institution now that they have acquired these existing banks. They just didn't bring it to US because there are already too many banking institutions here. They also bought a company that deals with ATM's, that is why they have the Neteller Debit Card. They will figure out some way of making sure that the transactions continue. It's not like they are some Columbian Drug Outfit that also happens to sell coffee, LOL.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

The problem is Neteller to gaming sites transactions. And that is the only problem.

In a court Neteller would be asked, "why did you sign a contract with an illegal internet gambling company to facilitate deposits for players?"

Then the gavel will hammer down and the Neteller exec will be pwned.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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In a court Neteller would be asked, "why did you sign a contract with an illegal internet gambling company to facilitate deposits for players?"

Then the gavel will hammer down and the Neteller exec will be pwned.

[/ QUOTE ] Why the Neteller exec will be sat in one of his offices outside the USA sticking 2 fingers up at the US government. As long as he doesn't enter the USA then there is no problem. You guys from across the pond seem to forget your laws do noy apply outside your borders.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

When I lived in the UK and had a Neteller account I was able to link it to my UK bank account in much the same way I do here in the US. It seems like the easiest way will be to have a UK bank acct with a UK Neteller acct and operate that way, wiring funds from my UK bank acct to my US acct as needed (or just using checks/visa).

But as everyone has mentioned already, the 'hardcore' guys getting money online and playing isn't really the issue.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

If you have a UK bank you don't even need Neteller. nearly all the online sites let you deposit from a UK bank using your debit card and just refund any withdrawals to the debit card used to deposit

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

Also, foreign Neteller means dealing with proxies/shell accounts cause they lock your account if your IP address is not in the same country.

But like you say, you get a foreign bank account and you wont need neteller. That still doesnt solve the problem of the casual player not going to those lengths though.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't be illegal to deposit to neteller, as i understand. what will be illegal is to transfer between neteller and your US bank account.

[/ QUOTE ]
How? Neteller has "authentic" (i.e. non-poker related uses). How is transfering from/to my bank account to/from Neteller going to be illegal any more than some Swiss bank account?

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I believe 99% of netellers business is gaming. The banks won't be fooled here, they'll just ban neteller. Maryland has already banned neteller for years.

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Yes, but 99% isn't 100%. Also, I don't think Maryland specifically banned Neteller, they banned all banks that do not have an office in Maryland.

EDIT: And the Maryland banks didn't ban Neteller, Maryland did. Neteller abides by not accepting any transactions from there.

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Maryland "banned" them in the same sense that my corporation is "banned" fromd doing business there. Neither of us filled out the paper work and agreed to pay the 7% tax. Many states don't chase down corporations from other states (and countries!) to try to get this dough, but I guess Maryland does.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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Numerous times Ive gotten checks from Neteller (instead of direct dspoiting to my bank account). Nowhere on the check does it indicate its from Neteller

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This can't possibly be right.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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Numerous times Ive gotten checks from Neteller (instead of direct dspoiting to my bank account). Nowhere on the check does it indicate its from Neteller

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This can't possibly be right.

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Why not? Seems to me the check could be drawn on any international bank where Neteller has an account. There is abs no need for the check to say Neteller.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

Actually what neteller is likely to do (if it doesn't already) is simply issue banker's drafts to settle accounts - in the UK if you have money lodged at a financial institution there are two sorts of 'check' you can draw..

One is the usual one drawn on the account held in your name with that financial institution - of course you sign that one and the details on it will show which account it comes from - if you don't have sufficient funds in the account it will bounce.

The second is a banker's draft - which is a 'check' issued by the financial institution itself and for which that institution is liable - it would just be a draft issued by say RBS pls, which woukdn't indicate the customer name on it.

In UK domestic use the main point of these is that banker's drafts don't have to 'clear' - they are backed with the full funds of the issuing institution and so can't bounce unless that institution itself goes bankrupt - so they are treated (if issued by a reputable bank) as being as good as cash..

So if neteller just issues its payments to US customers in that form it's going to be very very hard for any US bank to know that it indicates a gambling transaction.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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The problem with that is that the fish won't bother doing it. The games will quickly dry up. You'll be playing only against other professionals.

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How many times was this said about neteller when it first started? No one wanted to bother doing it, now it's the backbone of the current industry.

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Neteller really just felt like paypal though. Setting up a foreign bank sounds a lot more shady to the average joe, even though its the same thing.

What would be great is if some company filled that void and made it feel like neteller but was really just setting up a UK or wherever bank account. Actually sounds like a pretty good business idea...wish I had the means to give it ago.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

money laundering requirements are pretty strict in UK for new bank accounts - you would need to produce a lot of ID and I'm not sure if faxed/scanned copies would do..

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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In a court Neteller would be asked, "why did you sign a contract with an illegal internet gambling company to facilitate deposits for players?"

Then the gavel will hammer down and the Neteller exec will be pwned.

[/ QUOTE ] Why the Neteller exec will be sat in one of his offices outside the USA sticking 2 fingers up at the US government. As long as he doesn't enter the USA then there is no problem. You guys from across the pond seem to forget your laws do noy apply outside your borders.

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I guess you forget about extradition treaties. IF the law doesnt violate international law or treaties, a transaction intitiated on a US based computer and executed overseas is a criminal act IN the US. (Eg the arrest of the betsports exec. for accepting bets offshore that were placed from a US computer. While mechanically they waited till he was here, it was still extraditable if his situs was in a country with an extradition treaty.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't be illegal to deposit to neteller, as i understand. what will be illegal is to transfer between neteller and your US bank account.

[/ QUOTE ]
How? Neteller has "authentic" (i.e. non-poker related uses). How is transfering from/to my bank account to/from Neteller going to be illegal any more than some Swiss bank account?

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The problem with that is that the fish won't bother doing it. The games will quickly dry up. You'll be playing only against other professionals.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not too worried about this, but then again, I'm a SSNL player right now. There will be both losing AND winning players that stop playing, just more losing than winning. But the thing is, this doesn't affect the world, it only affects the U.S., and there are still plenty of fish in other countries. Yes, the games will certainly be tougher, but I don't think they will be nearly as much as you imply.

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It doesn't matter that neteller has 'authentic' uses also.
What matters is that neteller DOES PROVIDE transactions to online-gambling places.
Therefore it is one of the money-transfer options that is not considered acceptable.

That's my interpretation of it anyway.

Now, whether the banks and U.S. govt can actually do anything to stop transactions from neteller remains to be seen.
Also what remains to be seen is whether neteller will voluntarily cut-off U.S. customers like they did with Maryland customers.

To my mind, they hopefully take a mindset that they don't have anything to lose anyway by continuing to accept U.S. customers even if the govt doesn't want them to.

One issue though is that they will look like more of a rogue business that is voluntarily breaking the law of this country. That wouldn't look good to their stock-holders.


So a lot of this is kind of up to neteller and what they want to do about it.
If they continue to accept U.S. customers then it should be pretty easy to make whatever transactions you want I suspect.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

exactly. Which is why neteller's announcement may be more important than any site's (unless the sites just rollover, of course)

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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If you have a UK bank you don't even need Neteller. nearly all the online sites let you deposit from a UK bank using your debit card and just refund any withdrawals to the debit card used to deposit

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which works really well until you need to withdraw more money from the poker site than the original amount you used to fund the account with.

i.e. you deposit $100 with your debit card from the UK - and you play goot and win $1000 - you can only refund $100 of that $1000 back to the card.

To withdraw the remainder you need Neteller or similar, or request a paper cheque from the poker site (which takes aaaaaaages)

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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I guess you forget about extradition treaties. IF the law doesnt violate international law or treaties, a transaction intitiated on a US based computer and executed overseas is a criminal act IN the US. (Eg the arrest of the betsports exec. for accepting bets offshore that were placed from a US computer. While mechanically they waited till he was here, it was still extraditable if his situs was in a country with an extradition treaty.

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe, But say the UK government gets a request from the US to extradite a UK citizen that hasn't broken any law in the UK and has never set foot on American soil. And the US want to arrest him for a crime in America. I just can't see the UK government allowing the extradition. Which is exactly why the US waited for the Betsport exec to set foot in the USA.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

So if a UK bank that transfers funds to Party Poker also has US customer accounts it will be illegal for US Banks to transfer funds to that UK Bank?

PairTheBoard

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

er actually Blair just forced thru such a law as part of his helping Bush with the 'war on terror' - no need to show 'just cause' - the UK just rolls over and hands em to US - of course there is no reciprocity - so to extradite a US citizen the UK still has to show 'just cause'

mind you that law won't last a month after Blair is gone ..

of course it has only been used to date on white collar crimes - and they can just frame it as tax evasion to get round the issue that it's not an offence in the UK

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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er actually Blair just forced thru such a law as part of his helping Bush with the 'war on terror' - no need to show 'just cause' - the UK just rolls over and hands em to US - of course there is no reciprocity - so to extradite a US citizen the UK still has to show 'just cause'

mind you that law won't last a month after Blair is gone ..

of course it has only been used to date on white collar crimes - and they can just frame it as tax evasion to get round the issue that it's not an offence in the UK

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Well that's bad news indeed. I must admit Blair is Bush's lap dog. I can see the USA/UK being the modern day equivelent of the USSR in the not too distant future, do as your told or disapear never to be seen again,all these new laws seem to be the thin end of the wedge to me.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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If you have a UK bank you don't even need Neteller. nearly all the online sites let you deposit from a UK bank using your debit card and just refund any withdrawals to the debit card used to deposit

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which works really well until you need to withdraw more money from the poker site than the original amount you used to fund the account with.

i.e. you deposit $100 with your debit card from the UK - and you play goot and win $1000 - you can only refund $100 of that $1000 back to the card.

To withdraw the remainder you need Neteller or similar, or request a paper cheque from the poker site (which takes aaaaaaages)

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I've deposited on 2 separate poker sites using my debit card and won money on both of them and withdrawn the whole lot to my debit account. Are you referring to one specific site here as its certainly not been the case when I've used debit cards, although most sites I've always used neteller on.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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er actually Blair just forced thru such a law as part of his helping Bush with the 'war on terror' - no need to show 'just cause' - the UK just rolls over and hands em to US - of course there is no reciprocity - so to extradite a US citizen the UK still has to show 'just cause'



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If you mean the treaty used to extradite the 'Natwest three'
the US ratified it reciproally according to todays paper under heavy diplomatic pressure [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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that isnt the problem, it isnt hard for a dedicated player to deposit, but the average fish wont spend the necessary time setting up an offshore account jsut to play poker, therein greatly decreasing the influx of american poker money

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This is indeed the worrying impact that the bill will have if implemented effectively.

Re: Why not just get an overseas bank account?
 

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which works really well until you need to withdraw more money from the poker site than the original amount you used to fund the account with.

i.e. you deposit $100 with your debit card from the UK - and you play goot and win $1000 - you can only refund $100 of that $1000 back to the card.

To withdraw the remainder you need Neteller or similar, or request a paper cheque from the poker site (which takes aaaaaaages)

[/ QUOTE ] All sites I play on alow you to withdraw more than the deposit. I have deposited $25 to a site to play a tournament before then cashed out $3500 the same day after I won. All back to my debit card.