$500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

This hand took place in a live 2/5 NL game. This game plays on the semi-tight side. The players are pretty good, and I generally look for other games if there are any in the area. So I respect these players - they are not donkeys. When this hand came up, the SB had about $450, I was the BB with about $425, and the button had about $125 (he was playing pretty loose, pushing in a lot with the small stack). Here's how it happened.

There was a middle position raise to $15 and there were 5 callers before it got to me (pot = $75). I found 10 10. I called the $10. The flop came down 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB checks and I bet out $50. Everyone folds to the button, who moves in for $125. The BB thinks for a long time, hems and haws, mumbles, makes pained faces, etc. and finally calls. I immediately move all in for about $300 more. The BB thinks for a very long time, hems and haws, mumbles, makes pained faces, picks his cards up, puts them down, looks at them again and again, and finally calls. Does anyone think that moving in here was a mistake?

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

I think you missed a raise from the BB to about $75 or so. This forces the button to play for stacks, while you force all the dead money out.

Edited for horrible spelling.

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

Well, it definitely crossed my mind to raise. I didn't raise for three reasons. The first is to give my have a little deception. I recently read an article by Annie Duke where she says that against several limpers, she'll play QQ out of the blinds like this to maximize the value of a set. Of course, I was facing a raise and several callers, and I would have been alright to get the money that was already in the pot. But I thought I'd give it a try.

Second, I was a little worried about original raiser. At this table the standard raise is $20 to $25. People don't raise to only $15 very often. So I was worried that he had AA or KK and was trying to get some action. I haven't played with the guy enough to know how to interpret the small raise.

Lastly was my table image. I'm not a really tight player, but I wasn't getting much to play. I'd been folding for hours, and about 20 hands prior to this one, I'd shown a big bluff. So I was a little worried that my opponents would interpret the big raise as a move and come over the top.

So I was in a situation where if I raised, the big reraise wouldn't give me any additional information about my opponents hand. If I got reraised, he either had a bigger pair or he thought i was bluffing and he was trying for the rebluff. And then if I called the rebluff I'd still have to play the stupid 10 10 out of position after the flop, and we all know how hard that is. I'm open to criticism on this line of thinking, but that was what I was about at the time.

RESULT: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

So here is what happened. The SB finally called and showed JJ! What a great call. I would never have made this call given the action on the hand, but good for this guy. Jeez. Does anyone think different? The button showed 99, and the SB dragged a fat pot.

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

I probably would have folded once the guy cold-called, but there are definatly some live games where your play is good.

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

This is a complete spew and your explanation of why you didn't reraise preflop pretty much sums up the reasons why.

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

Yes, that occured to me too. But I just couldn't see his reluctance to call as an act. What would he have been so reluctant to call with? Maybe an 8 with a small kicker or something I guess. But he just seemed so reluctant to call to me. It took him like 2 minutes to call, and the whole time he was mumbling and sighing.

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

you got slowrolled by bb. anyone who does that much acting and cold calls has you beat probably 90% of the time.

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

I agree with Pokah. You have to re-raise pre-flop. A 3x BB raise in this game means nothing. Anybody that was gonna limp will call the $15. I would have made it about $90 to go before the flop. If a deep villian pushes on you, you can get away from the hand. What is more likely to happen is the short stack pushes and nobody that doesn't have AA, KK, or maybe QQ can't call given the amount of strength that you've shown.

I don't like your flop push. As played, you should treat your hand about like a pair of fives. You played for the set an missed. You only have $15 invested and a good villian is showing a bunch of strength. I think I would have released the hand and waited for a better opportunity if I was in your position. But, ideally, you wouldn't have been in that position.

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

Your shove is horrible IN GENERAL when someone chechk overcalls a bet from "a tight player" and then an all-in from another player. If however, you surmised that he had a hand in the range of JJ/A9 and was seriously questioning the strength of his hand then your play is actually pretty good given your read. It doesnt seem like this was your read, however, but rather your manifestation of hand win-rates and you believed TT should be good here a decent amount of time, but your logic is seriously flawed if your thinking this way.

Also just calling preflop and leading post flop is not BAD given some live game dynamics so don't absolutly buy-in to the generalities about preflop raising that some of the posters have given you so far because this might not fit into your image or playing style , but once BB calls you have to shut down. You can call obviously but don't put another cent into the pot.

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

I don't understand this at all. How is it a spew? I led out for $50, the original raiser and everyone else folded except a player with 99 who I was obviously going to call. Then the BB thinks forever, not acting. Then I put a good read on him, knowing that he didn't really like calling the $75, and I put him all in for $300 more. He had to think for like 5 minutes before calling. Put yourself in his place - would you have been able to call here with JJ? I wouldn't have given the action. I knew once he called the $75 that he had 10 10 beat, but I thought he would have to fold for so much more.

So, in sum, I got the player with 99 all in against 10 10, and I very very nearly got the player with JJ to fold. How is that a spew?

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't like your flop push. As played, you should treat your hand about like a pair of fives. You played for the set an missed. You only have $15 invested and a good villian is showing a bunch of strength. I think I would have released the hand and waited for a better opportunity if I was in your position. But, ideally, you wouldn't have been in that position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I actually called $15 and then led out for $50 on the flop. So I had $65 invested. Then the button moves all in for about $30 more. Then the BB calls the $80. So I had to call $30 more with no one left to act behind me. I was going to call the $30 no matter what. So the pot was about $255 at this point. I was pretty sure I had the button beat. The only reason that I pushed here was to get the BB to fold, and that very nearly worked. So I don't see where a 'good villian is showing a bunch of strength.' If anything, the BB was showing weakness, and rightly so given that all he had was JJ in this spot. So my read of the situation was exactly right, wasn't it?

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your shove is horrible IN GENERAL when someone chechk overcalls a bet from "a tight player" and then an all-in from another player. If however, you surmised that he had a hand in the range of JJ/A9 and was seriously questioning the strength of his hand then your play is actually pretty good given your read. It doesnt seem like this was your read, however, but rather your manifestation of hand win-rates and you believed TT should be good here a decent amount of time, but your logic is seriously flawed if your thinking this way.[/quote\]

Maybe there was some confusion in the OP. The button is a LAG that has been moving all in a lot with his small stack. So when he moved in, it didn't mean much to me. The BB is the tight player. Actually, JJ was exactly the hand that I put the BB on, but I also figured that QQ would have an incredibly tough call for $300 more. A lot of the posters interpreted his hesitancy to call as acting, but I didnt' think he was acting at the time. I thought that his hand wasn't that strong. So when I pushed, I was NOT hoping for a call, i.e., I knew that I didn't have the BB beat. The all in was to push the BB out and take the button heads up.

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

I mis-typed about your only having $15 invested in the pot, but I still don't agree with your push. I've made the same play with similar results more times than I like to admit.

The reason that I don't like it is because the only hand that the villian can put you on that he's not in front of is really 8-7, 8-9, or A-8 (maybe 8-10, but probably not given your tight table image). The only hand that he might have that you beat that makes the overcall is 9-9 or maybe 5-6, or 9-10. Overcalling given your action with 9-9 would be a big mistake on his part as would calling with an OESD on a paired board.

I would have called the additional $30 and hoped to either spike my 10 or get to a free or very cheap river. Which likely would have worked if the villian was as weak as your read. Like I said, I think the best thing was to re-raise pre-flop.

Its always easier to see this kind of stuff when you're not in the heat of the hand, but that's how I hope I would have played it.

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

i didn't read replies. pf is fine, sometimes you can raise this, but you completely messed up flop. if opponents are decent like you say they are, there is no reason to be calling the all in (i assume you meant to write SB not BB since you said you were in BB) given the action. SB is obviously not scared of you calling, and you are never getting an 8 to fold in a 2/5 live game, esp given the way the action went.

also i think your flop bet was too much, but it does allow you to make an easy fold when it comes back to you. if somehow btn had a 7 or str8 draw and you had SB beat it was still a bad push long term imo.

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

If Ive miss read this hand, then by all means chastise me, but I think I know where youre logic errors.

Put yourself in the SB's position (and plz stop refering to him as BB, its confusing). He simply calls a raise preflop with JJ, therefore his line of thinking was similar to yours preflop. Youre both suspicious of this MP charactor.

The board comes out 788, no flush. He checks to the raiser, and you bet out. Would you have called preflop with an 8 in your hand? Probably, J8,T8,98,78,and 86 are all decent calls 7.5-1 calls in a 6-way pot. There are 34 ways for you to have an 8. But, when you lead out, and you put suspicions in his mind. Most players would check trips to a preflop raiser, especially one who, as you and the SB have assumed, has a strong hand like KK or AA. I wouldnt, but most would.

Pot is $125.


The MP folds. The SB sighs a sign of relief, because he no longer has to worry about an over pair. You or the button would have reraised preflop with AA, KK, and probably QQ (the button especially).

Then the button pushes allin for $125. This is gives SB something to think about. The raise "represents" an 8, but does it really? The only thing an 8 is really afraid of at this point is the straight draw, but if the SB had a straight draw, hed be getting 2-1 anyway. 2.6 if the BB called behind him. If the BB had the straight draw, then hed obviously call the extra $75, gettig 3.3-1 if the SB folds, and 5-1 if the SB calls. In other words, the button cant be hoping to knock out a straight draw with his raise, so he has no purpose to raise here if he had an 8. He may not have an 8, but he obviously had a real hand. A bluff is just too unlikely, given the odds the BB is being laid to call. What hand fits the description of just cold call preflop, and a raise after a 788 board? A pocket pair that is vulnerable to overcards. As i said before, the Button would have probably raised preflop with QQs or better, so something like JJ-99 is the most likely. Obviously, the SB has JJ, so he feels that theyre good vs the Button.

Pot is $375.

You call the $75, and push another $300. This probably suprises the SB. But, he just doesnt believe that youd play an 8 that quickly. If you were a loose player, than yea maybe. Loose players can afford to play their strong hands fast. Tight players on the other hand, tend to play them slower to get them paid off. Youve been folding for hours, so obviously you would want your 8 to pay you off. Why the fast play then? Why the $300 raise? It doesnt protect vs a straight draw. The SB is getting 2.5 - 1, an easy enough call with a straight draw. Sure the board is paired, but almost no one would play a boat that fast. Therefore youre raise doesnt look like an 8 because it doesnt protect your hand, or massage the pot, it simply looks like a big intimidating raise. He must have put you on the a similiar hand as the Button, but hes worried about the odds of BOTH of you having overpairs that are beneath Jacks. But of course, youre preflop play basically omits the possiblity of QQs or better, and youre postflop play does little to represent an 8.

He makes a terrific read.

If I were you, I wouldnt play at this guys table. I had to in a comfortable enviroment for a few minutes to come up with the above rationalization, knowing what the cards everyone had was. The SB was able to come up with the same solution at the card table without the luxury of hindsight.

Hes good, too good. Leave him alone.

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

Yeah, I see your point. But if you were the villian, knowing that I would have probably called a small raise like this preflop with very many hands (6.5 to 1), what could you put me on? I think that the villian made a very tough call here, and he very nearly laid it down. I guess I'm getting the impression from your post that you think that the villian had a pretty easy call for the $300 more...

Re: $500 NL, Busted with 10 10. How did I play this?
 

Yes, I think you're exactly right. Actually, right after he turned over the JJ I knew why he called. And I agree that it was a really really good and tough call. Thanks for the post.