Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

Catagory 7 hands from H/L split poker.

Three consecutive high cards to a straight flush.

Ray says these are "some of the best starting hands" as long as your cards are live.

How live?

Do you want the cards that pair you live too?

Just what does he consider "high cards"? AKQ of course, but what about JT9?

He also says that you can take these hands to 5th and even sixth if when you brick up if your opponents boards do not look "too threatening"

This seems like terrible chip spewing advice to me. Can someone please clue me in? These hands seems marginal at best to me.

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

Mike McD tells the judge in rounders to play these hands as well.

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

I don't think he's talking about high-low in that scene.

I'm with you Beavis, I don't see these hands being very profitable.

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mike McD tells the judge in rounders to play these hands as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
OP is asking about hi/lo, whereas in Rounders it was just hi.

Personally I've always wondered about that advice as well. Instinctively its not something I'd want to play HU against a low. However in a loose game where I can get in for the bringin I will definitly play if my suit is live (no more than 1 showing)

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mike McD tells the judge in rounders to play these hands as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
He was talking about stud/high and he said 3 cards to a straight or 3 cards to a flush.

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mike McD tells the judge in rounders to play these hands as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
OP is asking about hi/lo, whereas in Rounders it was just hi.

Personally I've always wondered about that advice as well. Instinctively its not something I'd want to play HU against a low. However in a loose game where I can get in for the bringin I will definitly play if my suit is live (no more than 1 showing)

[/ QUOTE ]
Some books say to fold this.

In a loose game, you probably can limp behind and fold 4th street if you don't improve. Depending on the situation, you may have to fold a draw later on, as you are usually playing for half the pot.

Otherwise, this is mostly useful as an ante stealing hand with deception in a tight game. You might open raise with an ace showing. If you don't take the pot immediately, you have deception. You could also open limp or open raise in late position, misrepresenting a big pair. A low may call and fold if it "catches bad."

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mike McD tells the judge in rounders to play these hands as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not intending to bust your chops, but seriously should we be taking advice from Rounders?

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

With a brick-high straight flush, I would think you would want your straight, flush, AND pair cards to be live.

Here's why I think they are playable: without low possibilities, a straight draw alone or a flush draw alone is not playable, because one is drawing to half a pot. However, a straight-flush draw has effectively twice as many ways to make a high hand -- both the straight draw AND the flush draw -- as a draw without other possibilities of improvement, and so it becomes as playable as a pure straight or pure flush draw in high-only stud.

I should say that I don't have a good sense of how to play these hands -- I want to see fourth street for cheap, but I have no idea whether or not to peel on fourth if I catch a blank. Obviously this means I should spend some time fussing around on twodimes.

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

A 4-straight flush is about as easy to complete as a 4-low, and a 3-straight flush has more ways to catch good than a 3-low. I think the idea about getting in cheap is because you can make a high pair that is probably the best high hand, since no one raised with their nice pair.

I'm not sure AKQ is that great of a hand; QJT is better because of the straight potential. However, I'd bail on 4th if I was heads up against a low that caught good.

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

Threads on this subject go bact to the earlist days of the forum. If you go to the Oct and Nov 2000 archives, and search for "Stud/8 expersts please help" (sic), you'll find some of the better players from those days (and these) talking about the same thing.

Oct 2000
Nov 2000

PS I've never learned how to make any money off of this hand. Every once in a while, as I re-read Zee on Stud 8, I make the same post. Nobody has explained how to make money from it, at least in terms I can understand. Someday I plan to fold this hand for the bring-in, and then write a Tommy-Angeloesque article about it.

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

I mostly agree with Beavis.

These hands should definitely be playable in various circumstances (getting in cheap, getting for a bet in a very multiway pot, stealing in a favorable steal position).

But I don't see how they could possibly be 'some of the best' starting hands.

Also based on twodimes I don't think you should be peeling 4th versus an improved low unless the pot is quite large.

Cold-calling on 4th after bricking seems like it could not possibly be correct.

I would venture to say they are worth about as much a pair of the lowest rank (e.g. KQTs is worth about the same as split tens), except they do not suffer as much from having overcards behind them on 3rd or from getting multiway action.

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would venture to say they are worth about as much a pair of the lowest rank (e.g. KQTs is worth about the same as split tens), except they do not suffer as much from having overcards behind them on 3rd or from getting multiway action.

[/ QUOTE ] I think this is a very accurate description.

I play them out, but the biggest problem that I see with these sort of hand is that your opponents know you're going high, unless the ace is up. That's a big disadvantage in this game and it feels like that alone robs these type hands from substantial profitability, because the selection of when and how to play them is crucial to their profitability. If you get in a short-handed pot with a good player with any sort of decent low draw you'll be hard pressed not to get very easily outplayed unless you make your hand very early.

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

Zee later differentiates between higher three straights and medium three straights such as QJT or JT9. So I would guess AKQ or KQJ mainly.

How live? You probably want no more than one of your suit out, the cards consecutive to your three cards live, and most of your pair cards (especially your door card) live. For example, if you held KQJs and were completely live, you have 9 flush cards, 9 pair cards, 3 tens giving you an OESD, and 6 aces or nines giving you one-way straight draw. That's 27 cards, or more than half the deck, that can improve your hand. I can see a preference for no more than 3-5 of those cards being dead, with no more than one of your suit, none of your door card (so you can better present trips if you pair it), and no tens being dead.

Zee places three consecutive high straight flush cards as better than a small pair or a razzy low. My guess is that he is probably correct there in that this hand can stand more action on third street and can better handle taking a card off on fourth if you brick. Is anyone disputing Zee's ordering of hands?

I think that this hand probably plays best when it is going up in a multiway pot against passive players who always play any pair and razz-y lows with little or no straight or flush possibilities. On fourth street, I think you can afford to take a card off if you know you won't get jammed.

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

I usually fold these and I don't particularly like being in situations where I think I have to play them.

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

I found it hard to believe that Zee would make such a recommendation, so I doubled checked. He did. I guess we have to be very clear about what "live" means. For my money that would mean none of your cards were out and none of your suit and none of the cards you need to make a straight! With that very restrictive proviso, I would say, yes, you can play three high straight flush cards in 8 or better stud.

Uh, don't hold your breath for that opportunity.

Now if the ace is up, that's a different story because not only is it unclear whether you're going high or low (duh) but if you catch a baby you can represent. How sweet it is if the baby is of the same suit!

Re: Help with some Ray Zee advice
 

Well I guess one answer is that Zee was wrong?

Another answer might be in that games where people are overplaying their weak highs, like some of the games online, then they will become much stronger.

But like, they are category 7 hands...and weren't they in order of strength?

gl

bdd