QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

Villain is LAP, 68/9 PF but likes to call it down and raise with very good hands only.

My thinking was that his threebet range is not all that wide, probably close to mine, so when he raises my flop bet, he's mostly beating me here. Does anyone threebet the flop? Should I have done or am I right in thinking this is WA/WB?

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP3 3-bets</font>, 4 folds, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, MP3 calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (13.6SB, 3 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP3 raises</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8.8BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (10.8BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls.

Results:
Final pot: 14.8BB

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

I 3-bet the flop.

If called I lead the turn.

If capped I check-call it.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

If I'm not 3-betting the flop I'm raising the turn. You put it off to the river.. would you have raised if the river wasn't a Q?

But y'know... this is Q's... Q's can be a bit vulnerable when a K or A hits, and I'll want to stop betting so much so I may want to just go ahead and get everything in when I'm still good, like the flop.

Yeah, I like that... 3-bet the flop. And the rest like DrModern said.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

With the reads u had the way u played it is the only one that makes sense.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

He doesn't raise your flop bet with JJ, TT, A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and sometimes whiffed overs? You're probably about 50% on the flop, even when he raises.

Get the money in now; find out where you stand.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm not 3-betting the flop I'm raising the turn. You put it off to the river.. would you have raised if the river wasn't a Q?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a chance. I don't think passive players bet a pair of tens into a preflop raiser. I may be wrong but I trusted my read enough.

I'm curious to know your thinking. I already knew that some would call for threebets and raises. But I'd like to know why.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't raise your flop bet with JJ, TT, A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and sometimes whiffed overs?

[/ QUOTE ]

You tell me. Does he?

Do you? Do you raise my bet with TT if I've capped you preflop? I cap AA-QQ, AKs and sometimes AK against a tight raiser. More if the other guy is liable to raise light, but this guy raises 8%, which is about Sklanksy/Miller tight.

[ QUOTE ]
You're probably about 50% on the flop, even when he raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'm about 50% against someone like me. I think I'm WB someone like villain.

[ QUOTE ]
Get the money in now; find out where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

How will I do that? If he calls, am I ahead or behind?

When I bet the turn and he calls that too, am I winning or losing?

I'm not posting this because I think I know it all. I'm posting it because I'm trying to play better, and part of that is not just throwing my chips at hands I think I'm losing. So what I'm asking is, why was I wrong to think I was losing? Should I always push decent hands and not think they're losers ever? What should tell me they are losing, if anything? You see what I mean? I know the standard TAG response is raise it up and hope for the best, but I'm trying to see how you go past that.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

If I'm villain, I'd def. raise your bet with a lot of the holdings I mentioned even though you capped PF. Villain doesn't know that you only cap the top few hands.

I'm not sure why you think you're WB against villain here. You are sure he has AA or KK or 99 just because he raises your flop bet? Think about his range.

I too want to play my hands as well as possible and not donk away bets when I'm behind. But I need to know I'm behind a goodly portion of the time to play this hand passively.

The standard TAG response, as far as I can tell, is the right one here.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

I would have played this hand the same way. Having capped PF and led the flop, I have to put the raiser on a big pair. We lose to AA and KK, chop with QQ, and beat JJ (I very much doubt TT/99 here). I want to see a showdown cheaply, and would check/call the rest of the hand UI.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Get the money in now; find out where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising for information is bad. Hero should 3-bet because villain's range is way larger than AA and KK here, the only hands he would be behind.

3-bet flop, if he caps it call down unless you improve. I could maybe see just calling the flop with the intention of check-raising the turn, but I would be less inclined to do so if the turn is a club, ace, or king, so I think 3-betting flop is superior.

Comparing your line of getting two bets in on the flop, one on the turn, and two on the river, I am not sure if you can extract much more. I think we have to assume that the villain may slow down if we 3-bet the flop some of the time. But 3-betting the flop does have the advantage of getting your money in before an A or K hits.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm villain, I'd def. raise your bet with a lot of the holdings I mentioned even though you capped PF. Villain doesn't know that you only cap the top few hands.

I'm not sure why you think you're WB against villain here. You are sure he has AA or KK or 99 just because he raises your flop bet? Think about his range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, what is his range? I don't mean "which cards could he conceivably have threebet with?" I mean "which cards he could conceivably have threebet with will he raise a capper's flop bet with?"

The reason I mentioned my capping range was to show you that it's not likely he thinks I've been out of line. He may never have seen me cap before.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't raise your flop bet with JJ, TT, A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and sometimes whiffed overs? You're probably about 50% on the flop, even when he raises.

Get the money in now; find out where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he caps, do you intend to fold somewhere?

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

I just meant: his raising range given the action is not just AA, KK, and 99.

Also, I wasn't advocating "raising for information." I meant: raise for value, villain's response to your raise gives you a better sense of where you stand as an added bonus.

See KingOtter's post for more.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just meant: his raising range given the action is not just AA, KK, and 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

I capped preflop. If he's ever seen me cap and show down, it will have been a big hand. I can't remember whether he has but he won't have seen me get much out of line with my raises. He won't think in figures, I daresay, but he'll figure I raise about the same range he does.

He's passive and my read is he rarely raises. You think this guy is raising with no pair? Maybe you're right, but why?

Your answer seems to be "because his PF range was wider than AA/KK/99". But we're not PF. We're on the flop and I've bet out. I say he'll call all day with anything less than a big pair, so AK/AQ/AJ are all out. I think TT is very, very unlikely, first of all to threebet PF and second to raise after a cap. I discount QQ because that's just too unlikely given I have the same hand but okay, that's in there. JJ is possible, I grant you, but I think, again, you have to consider it more likely he'll just call it down and hope I have something like AK/AQ.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I wasn't advocating "raising for information." I meant: raise for value, villain's response to your raise gives you a better sense of where you stand as an added bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please show me why you think I have value here.

Against a LAG, yes. Against a TAG, yes. I will threebet both. But I think mindless autoraising when you have big cards is a mistake and I think it's a mistake right here in particular.

What do you do when you're capped, by the way? Will you fold to the cap, or are you calling down? If you're calling down, you spent two more bets to find out what I think I already know.


[ QUOTE ]
See KingOtter's post for more.

[/ QUOTE ]

King Otter's post is a roadmap to losing money. Raising the turn is pure spew here. If a very passive player, after I've capped, raises this nothing flop and bets the turn, I am not raising either expensive street without improving. It's demented. At best I lose two bets if I have the sense to fold the turn to his threebet. (But how can I? If his "range" can be behind on the flop, it can still be behind on the turn, so how do I find a fold?) Worst and most likely case, he calls the raise and donks the river and then I have to call "because it's a big pot". Or am I leading the river? Folding to his raise?

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

Before I start, do you know how many hands you had on your opponent here? That would really help me evaluate whether your very specific and important read is reliable. After all, this hand is obviously all about the read from the flop on.

[ QUOTE ]
I capped preflop. If he's ever seen me cap and show down, it will have been a big hand. I can't remember whether he has but he won't have seen me get much out of line with my raises. He won't think in figures, I daresay, but he'll figure I raise about the same range he does.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're giving villain too much credit here, but it doesn't really matter. He is not thinking about your hand, only his own. That said, his range is still probobly very small, assuming your read is correct. You are WB here.

To those who think villain has a bigger range, I ask why? Does villain raise the flop with AK? Doubt it. No other big pair hand even comes into the picture. Does he raise with TT or JJ? Maaaaybe, but where do you draw the line for his preflop 3-betting range? Does villain 3-bet with any hand he would raise with? I don't know, but if he does, then 99 comes into play too. Then you have 99,KK,AA all beating you and JJ,TT way behind. Either way, it doesn't look good.

The problem here is, we really don't know the specific nuances of villain's play enough to really say much about his raise on the flop.

This is why I think a c/r on the flop would be smarter. If villain 3-bets here, you are almost surely behind, and can fold or c/f the turn. If villain calls, you could very well be WA.

The more I think about it, the more I like the c/r line on the flop. You may get an overcall as well, which is very likely +EV against your holding.

C/r clears up everything much better that leading out here. It could end up saving you bets, and it could end up getting you the maximum value if you are ahead. If villain raises, you are saving about 1.5 BB over the alternative (calling down) when you're behind and villain 3-bets. If villain is ahead but slows down, it still costs you the same number of bets as the line you took.

There are probobly some flaws in my reasoning, and I'd love to hear them!

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

*newb*

I found that passive players like him somtimes get carried away with mid-strong hands if they for some stupid reason think you're bluffing. For that reason I'd at least call down, wich you did anyway.

I think the flop donk is enough aggression, no need to 3bet, I cant think we miss value against this kind of player cause often he has AA KK.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

I get the feeling that you complicate things a bit. To me this is easy 3-bet on the flop/lead turn. If I'm getting capped on the flop or raised on the turn I call down.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I get the feeling that you complicate things a bit. To me this is easy 3-bet on the flop/lead turn. If I'm getting capped on the flop or raised on the turn I call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your reasoning here?

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't raise your flop bet with JJ, TT, A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and sometimes whiffed overs? You're probably about 50% on the flop, even when he raises.

Get the money in now; find out where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]


The point is this villain is passive. He raises only with good hands, call down with mediocre hands. When he 3-bet pf I put him on AK, TT+. After we cap and he raises the flop I just don't think we are good often enough to 3-bet. QQ on a ragged board HU is normally a great hand. Against this villain it's not a favorite (if I understood OP correctly). The standard line is of course the one u argue for. But when I have good reads I prefer to go with them.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

I play this the same. 3-betting on the flop sucks.

Call this river bet?
 

Villain is TAG, 22/11 PF and plays very aggressive post flop when he has a hand.

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, 4 folds, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (13.6SB, 3 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

<font color="blue">I raised to protect my hand and to find out there I was, when he called, I figured he was on overcards and not an over pair.</font>

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8.8BB, 2 players)
MP2 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (10.8BB, 2 players)
MP2 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises</font>, Hero...

Ut oh, do I call here? Could he really have capped preflop with AQs or something? Am I wasting a bet calling here?

Re: Call this river bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is TAG, 22/11 PF and plays very aggressive post flop when he has a hand.

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, 4 folds, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (13.6SB, 3 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

<font color="blue">I raised to protect my hand and to find out there I was, when he called, I figured he was on overcards and not an over pair.</font>

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8.8BB, 2 players)
MP2 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (10.8BB, 2 players)
MP2 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises</font>, Hero...

Ut oh, do I call here? Could he really have capped preflop with AQs or something? Am I wasting a bet calling here?

[/ QUOTE ]

you're a 68/9 LAP, of course you'll call!

Re: Call this river bet?
 

drzen,

If you're totally convinced this was the right way to play the hand, just write EXPERT above it and post it in the NC thread.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I capped preflop. If he's ever seen me cap and show down, it will have been a big hand. I can't remember whether he has but he won't have seen me get much out of line with my raises. He won't think in figures, I daresay, but he'll figure I raise about the same range he does.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he showed this much thought, he wouldn't be 68/9.

Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play
 

*grunch*
nh

Edit: this is in response to drzn's hand

Re: Call this river bet?
 

Villain is TAG, 22/11 PF and plays very aggressive post flop when he has a hand.

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP3 with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 3 folds, <font color="red"> MP2 raises </font>, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, UTG calls, <font color="red"> MP2 caps </font> , Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (13.6SB, 3 players)
UTG checks, <font color="red"> MP2 bets </font>, Hero...

<font color="blue"> ...raises? Does this really seem reasonable?
</font>

Just because it is reasonable for JJ doesn't make raising the flop correct. You need AK to tip in favor of raising.

Re: Call this river bet?
 

Same deal, but "Hero" is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and it's reasonable.

Re: Call this river bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Same deal, but "Hero" is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and it's reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still not enough. You're ahead of JJ and A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but behind AA and KK.

Re: Call this river bet?
 

You're ahead of TT plus the chance that villain is spazzing with whiffed overs as well.

Re: Call this river bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're ahead of TT plus the chance that villain is spazzing with whiffed overs as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sketchy... these hands are decreasingly likely. But I'm willing to concede that raising here is a coin flip.