Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

I just ordered my copy of Joe Navarro's book on poker tells, entitled Phil Hellmuth presents "Read Em and Reap", by Joe Navarro FBI ret. with Marvin Karlins. I've heard great things about Joe and am anxious to read the book. I think I'm also going to attend his one day seminar in Vegas on Nov 19th

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

I'm very much looking forward to this book as well.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

On Annie Duke's website, she has an article "Lessons from the FBI." She mentions how great Joe Navarro is and some of the things she learned from him. It will give you a little taste of what will be in the book if you haven't already heard the great things about this guy.

He has written a lot of articles and wrote a couple of books covering advanced interrogation techniques, so he definitely knows his stuff. I am really looking forward to reading it.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

Ive already read it, I was given an advanced copy in July from the publisher. If you have a basic understanding of psychology, logic, and the standard commonly known tells then the book isn't worth reading. What is interesting is his background analysis of why the tell exists. Unfortunately he puts way to much stock in tells as a source of profit, a common mistake that will cost many readers lots of money - therefore I hope the book sells very well.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

As an author on Phil and Joe's book I must take exception to "TT's" remarks. When he says "If you have a basic understanding of psychology, logic, and the standard commonly known tells then the book isn't worth reading..." then I guess T.J. Cloutier, John Bonetti, Antonio Esfandiari and other pros--who took pages of notes when Navarro made his presentation (and praised his work) must not have known much of these topics! Mr. "TT", I don't know if you have ten WSOP braclets, but I suspect when Phil Hellmuth and Annie Duke publically acclaim the new insights Joe Navarro brings to the game then either you are VERY talented or are badly underestimating the value of what Joe has to say in Read 'em and Reap. I can assure you, both from personal experience (as a psychologist and tournament participant) and discussions with other players who have used Joe's insights: Navarro's revelations on tells will bring you new awareness of how to play more effective, winning poker.

mkarlins

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

If my memory is accurate, in his book Psyching Out Las Vegas Karlins recommended that when you come to Las Vegas to bring a bunch of mailing envelopes with your address on them and everytime you got something like $20 ahead to mail $10 of it back home.

[ QUOTE ]
then I guess T.J. Cloutier, John Bonetti, Antonio Esfandiari and other pros--who took pages of notes when Navarro made his presentation (and praised his work) must not have known much of these topics! Mr. "TT", I don't know if you have ten WSOP braclets, but I suspect when Phil Hellmuth and Annie Duke publically acclaim the new insights Joe Navarro brings to the game then either you are VERY talented or are badly underestimating the value of what Joe has to say in Read 'em and Reap.

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There's also a third option. I won't state what it is, but are you familiar with the books written by the likes of Cloutier, Esfandiari, and Hellmuth?

MM

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

Dear Mason,

Your memory DOES serve you well; however, the $10 and $20 figures must be adjusted for inflation (the book was written in 1980!)and was mainly aimed at players involved in negative expectation games (which, of course, poker is not). Also, my congratulations for your successful publishing ventures and this website. Hope to see you at a final table soon!

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
As an author on Phil and Joe's book I must take exception to "TT's" remarks. When he says "If you have a basic understanding of psychology, logic, and the standard commonly known tells then the book isn't worth reading..." then I guess T.J. Cloutier, John Bonetti, Antonio Esfandiari and other pros--who took pages of notes when Navarro made his presentation (and praised his work) must not have known much of these topics! Mr. "TT", I don't know if you have ten WSOP braclets, but I suspect when Phil Hellmuth and Annie Duke publically acclaim the new insights Joe Navarro brings to the game then either you are VERY talented or are badly underestimating the value of what Joe has to say in Read 'em and Reap. I can assure you, both from personal experience (as a psychologist and tournament participant) and discussions with other players who have used Joe's insights: Navarro's revelations on tells will bring you new awareness of how to play more effective, winning poker.

mkarlins

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Not an auspicious start for one who would like to plug a book here.

Your first post is riddled with logical and tactical errors.

The reference to WSOP bracelets is a logical error of appeal to authority. Owning one or more bracelets does not necessarily qualify someone to evaluate work in another field, or to review a book on the subject. Not having a bracelet does not disqualify anyone from doing so either.

The choice of authorities you cite also shows an ignorance of your audience. At the risk of speaking for others, the people you mention are respected for their poker ability, but are generally held in low esteem for their writing, teaching, and analytical abilities.

It is also ill-advised to come onto a forum and dismiss a known and respected member as being unqualified to express an opinion. If you can point out errors, that is one thing. If it's your opinion against his, you need to establish some credibility before anyone will take you seriously as anything other than another author flogging his book.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

You also need to understand that people like the poster *TT* is a very knowledgeable poker player. So when he says that the book is weak, it doesn't mean that it is, but you should take his comments seriously and try to figure out why he says what he does.

Also, when you try to make arguments such as:

[ QUOTE ]
then I guess T.J. Cloutier, John Bonetti, Antonio Esfandiari and other pros--who took pages of notes when Navarro made his presentation (and praised his work) must not have known much of these topics

[/ QUOTE ]
or

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I don't know if you have ten WSOP braclets

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you need to realize that this has nothing to do with what is written on the pages of the book in question.

MM

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

*TT*:

Are there tells in Navarro's book that are NOT discussed in Mike Caro's book? If there are none then it is obviously not worth a read. If there are, would you please share three with us? Thanks.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

i certainly respect the opinion of the person who has actually seen the book...

but google navarro and it seems like he has some excellent stuff out there with a somewhat different focus than caro...

the other thing i'd add is why not read what navarro and others have written that is not specific to poker... seems like there's entire books on non-verbal textbooks... a great advantage is reading what others aren't.

i think everyone knows "weak can mean strong, and vice-versa". having said that, i think reverse-tell type behaviour helps you get paid off.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

Dear Ben,

I am not trying to plug a book, only defend the content. I could care less whether you purchase it or not, nevertheless I feel I have an obligation to challenge statements made by other individuals...or is this considered inapproprite by a "newbie" on the site?

As to your statements: I am sorry, but I think ten WSOP braclets DOES qualify a poker player of that stature to make a judgment about a book....ON POKER! How do you think books are reviewed in places like the NYTimes? By people respected in the field who know the subject. I'm not saying that TT hasn't a right to make an assessment of the book; however, I also think it appropriate to point out that NUMEROUS poker professionals (I would dare say as "Known and respected" as Mr. TT) have testified to the value of the work. You're right on one issue: "not having a braclet does not disqualify anyone from doing a review." I guess it comes down to who you want to believe...and, in my book, I tend to listen to PROVEN, WINNING poker players when evaluating the value of a poker book.

You also say: "At the risk of speaking for others, the people you mention are respected for their poker ability, but are generally held in low esteem for their writing, teaching, and analytical abilities." You have GOT to be kidding! Have you SAT across from these guys? Have you ACTUALLY PLAYED against these guys? I have and let me tell you...if their analytical abilities are held in low esteem then I'd like to meet the players held in HIGH esteem. As far as their being held in "low esteem" for their writing, I guess I'll go with Phil on this one: a New York Times bestseller speaks for itself.
I also wish you'd refrain from burdening me with statements I did not make. You state: "It is also ill-advised to come onto a forum and dismiss a known and respected member as being unqualified to express an opinion." That's rubbish. Find that quote in my statement and I'll pay you $1,000. "Taking exception to TT's remarks" is NOT saying he is unqualified to express an opinion. If you are as careless at the poker table as you are in your assessments of what other people say, well, I guess I'd enjoy playing across from you.
Finally, you say I need to establish some credibility before anyone will take me seriously. It's not my credibility that is at stake here. I am the WRITER of the book, Joe is the man with the ideas...and I think his 25 year career of effectively using "tells" with the FBI and his success with poker players worldwide shouts "credibility!" loud and clear.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
You also say: "At the risk of speaking for others, the people you mention are respected for their poker ability, but are generally held in low esteem for their writing, teaching, and analytical abilities." You have GOT to be kidding! Have you SAT across from these guys? Have you ACTUALLY PLAYED against these guys? I have and let me tell you...if their analytical abilities are held in low esteem then I'd like to meet the players held in HIGH esteem. As far as their being held in "low esteem" for their writing, I guess I'll go with Phil on this one: a New York Times bestseller speaks for itself.


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I think I'll address this because you obviously know very little about poker publishing. When the first WPT shows were broadcast, they created a sensation, and they also featured Phil Hellmuth whose book had just happened to come out.

At that time, a great boom in poker book sales began, and there was simply a shortage of all poker books. So good and bad books began to sell, and sell a lot. If Hellmuth's book was released today, it would just be another of the avalanche of poker books that are coming to market, and it would have essentially no sales.

As for NY Times best seller list, that doesn't mean the book is any good. But given the current level of competition, and the instant communication that the Internet provides to poker players, books better be good if they want to have sales success. Furthermore, I do know that our books, because of their quality, now dominate the sales of all poker books. As an example, we have had nine different books go into the Amazon.com top 100, so I know what I'm talking about.

As for your "have you SAT across from these guys?" remark, who cares. Have you read their books? Do you really understand what's in them? Do you think they are putting out good advice? Do you think they are well written?

[ QUOTE ]
I also wish you'd refrain from burdening me with statements I did not make. You state: "It is also ill-advised to come onto a forum and dismiss a known and respected member as being unqualified to express an opinion." That's rubbish. Find that quote in my statement and I'll pay you $1,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

While you didn't state that in exact words, you certainly implied it. You will be welcome here if you want to debate the merits of your book, both positive and negative, in an objective and professional way. You're not off to a good start.

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, you say I need to establish some credibility before anyone will take me seriously. It's not my credibility that is at stake here. I am the WRITER of the book, Joe is the man with the ideas...and I think his 25 year career of effectively using "tells" with the FBI and his success with poker players worldwide shouts "credibility!" loud and clear.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it is your credibility since you're the one posting. If Joe was to come on here and was more professional than you have been, I'm sure he would be treated differently.

These forums (and this website) is now the premier driver of poker book sales. Nothing else is even close. If you can do a good job of defending this book (which by the way I haven't read) it can add significantly to your sales. If on the other hand you come across as someone who needs a little asprin and a cooling down period, word will quickly spread through all poker players and you will have succeeded in damaging book sales.

MM

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

might be a great book that will not help online players. Another book with alot of hype and that's it. When annie wins the main event from all the raves ill belive it.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

Dear Mason,

Hey, I don't know benfranklin or his reputation so I could accept his aspersions with a large grain of salt. You, on the other hand, I do know as an accomplished writer and player...so now I expect a higher standard when it comes to accuracy and truth in your commentary. Thus, I feel an obligation to point out the following:

(1)Your claim that I "..obviously know very little about poker publishing..." My friend, I assure you, I know a great deal about publishing in general (20 published books with major NY houses) and poker publishing specifically (4 poker books published, three by major NY houses). I also have authored over 200 articles, was a columnist and contributing editor for Gambling Times for a decade, am the Associate Editor of the Journal of Gambling Studies and a contributor to popular magazines and newspapers worldwide. Yes, Mason, you are not the only person that publishes on this site. And I also understand the relationship between Phil's book and the WPT, having written the autobiography of Lyle Berman the guy who bankrolled the WPT. There were many books that just "happened to come out" at that time: Phil's book made it because: (1) it was well written; (2) it was published by a major house (HarperCollins) and (3) it was authored by a person who had a proven track record AT THE TABLES. Any of your books hit #1 lately?

(2) My comment about sitting across from these guys was in relation to the statement challenging their analytical skills, not their writing ability. Read my quote again before you use it incorrectly, please.

(3) Regarding my $1,000 challenge. You say: "While you didn't state that in exact words, you certainly implied it." I don't agree with this at all. I challenged his assumptions I DID NOT in any way indicate he was unqualified to state his opinions.

(4) Your comment: "You will be welcome here if you want to debate the merits of your book, both positive and negative, in an objective and professional way. You're not off to a good start." I"m sorry, but I think your Grand Poohbah "nickname" says it all; you might own the site and think you're the cat's meow but I assure you, when it comes to professionalism, you could do well to look in a mirror before you begin reflecting on other people's qualities.

(4) You state: "These forums (and this website) is now the premier driver of poker book sales. Nothing else is even close." Documentation, please? Geez, can we have a little less ego here? I'm sure reviewers in major poker magazines and other media outlets might be a bit, well, shaken by their lack of influence when facing your dominating position in the market. By the way, speaking of poker magazines, you might want to read the review of our book in the September issue of Cardplayer. Then take two aspirins and write me in the morning. LOL!

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

Will your book help online players that the majority on this message board play online?? I guess that answers that. Mason bring the 2plus2 books out soon.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

mkarlins, you have 4 posts and just happen to be backing this navarro book, whats wrong with this tainted analysis.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]


As to your statements: I am sorry, but I think ten WSOP braclets DOES qualify a poker player of that stature to make a judgment about a book....ON POKER!

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't say that they had made a judgement about a book. You said that they had paid attention to a presentation. You did not state the subject of that lecture (poker? FBI interregation techniques? what?).

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I'm not saying that TT hasn't a right to make an assessment of the book

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You did not say that in so many words. But you took "exception to "TT's" remarks" and strongly implied that he was unqualified due to a jewelery deficiency.

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Have you SAT across from these guys? Have you ACTUALLY PLAYED against these guys? I have and let me tell you...if their analytical abilities are held in low esteem then I'd like to meet the players held in HIGH esteem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I clearly stated that their playing ability is top notch. But all of these players have reputations of being ineffectual when it comes conveying an analysis of the game to others. We have seen their written analysis of poker and found it wanting. This lends no confidence to their opinions in other areas, including book reviews.

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As far as their being held in "low esteem" for their writing, I guess I'll go with Phil on this one: a New York Times bestseller speaks for itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Phil can't even spell "poker". Phil sells books on image and marketing, not content. The NYT bestsellers are there because of hype and marketing, not because of content. Some have content, some don't, but that is not why they are best-sellers. Some of Phil's content has been shown to be detrimental to students of the game. I just looked at the NYT list. Authors include Nora Roberts, Fannie Flagg, Robin Cook, Ann Coulter, and Al Gore. Nobody there I want advice from.


P.S. I have heard good things about Joe, and read a couple of his articles, which I found informative. I trust I can give the book an objective evaluation when it comes out, this thread not withstanding.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

Dear Mason,

P.S. One mistake in my message to you. I meant to say I published four GAMBLING books, not four POKER books. My mistake. Sorry. Only two of gambling books have been about poker.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

Dear Ben,

I appreciate your willingness to do an objective review of the book. I certainly did not mean to get involved in a donnybrook here; however, some of the things that were said about the quality of the book and charges made against me which I felt were patently untrue could not go unanswered. I am sure that everyone's goal here is to dispense valid, valuable knowledge to the poker community and to have some fun and intellectual challenge along the way. Frankly, in 40 years of University publishing (usually considered the nastiest of environments for personal attacks and oversized egos) I have never experienced the kind of "cattiness" and challenges to one's intellectual honesty experienced here. I must say I did not remain calm and above the fray and regret my inability to take the high road.

Joe Navarro is a great guy with great ideas. I am proud to be associated with the book and I firmly believe it reprsents new ground-breaking insights for the game of poker. I hope you and the other posters will not take this as a sales pitch, it is not meant that way. It is simply a matter of being proud of something and wanting to stand by it. That said, I feel that I am certainly not helping the book or myself by continuing the dialogue which has unfolded here today. I apologize for the way things turned out, however, for those who read through the entire string of posts I believe they will understand the reason I reacted the way I did.
Again, thanks for your last post and I wish you well in your future poker endeavors.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think ten WSOP braclets DOES qualify a poker player of that stature to make a judgment about a book....ON POKER!


[/ QUOTE ]

Nonsense. That's like saying that being a major league batting champion qualifies you to be a major league manager.

There are a ton of winning poker players who cannot explain how or why they win.


[ QUOTE ]


Have you SAT across from these guys? Have you ACTUALLY PLAYED against these guys? I have and let me tell you...if their analytical abilities are held in low esteem then I'd like to meet the players held in HIGH esteem.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ability to make correct decisions at the table has no necessary correlation to the ability to analyse the game clearly and intelligibly in writing. It is also totally unrelated to the ability to read and critically evaluate a book.

I read a lot of poker books, and I maintain a good sized library on the subject. The players/writers you cite are not "keepers".

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

When *TT* said he had read it and gave his review, it didn't change my opinion at all. I figured he knew a lot about the material and it was old stuff to him. I have heard good things about Navarro since Annie Duke first met him. He has impressed top pros with his knowledge time and time again. I don't even know who *TT* is, but I guess he is a decent player, top pro, author, I have no idea. But if it is all basic stuff to him, that doesn't mean it is not going to be helpful to the me. I still look forward to checking it out. I don't even play live poker much, I just find the material interesting coming from a member of the FBI.

The arguments that the top pros that liked Navarro's material on the subject are bad writers or those who had best sellers had books written during the poker boom or whatever seems a little extreme. Assuming the material in the book is the same as the material presented at the Hellmuth camp a while back and discussed with a number of professional players, I think it is relevant to mention that these top players have been impressed with what Joe Navarro had to say on the subject.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
*TT*:

Are there tells in Navarro's book that are NOT discussed in Mike Caro's book? If there are none then it is obviously not worth a read. If there are, would you please share three with us? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its been a while since I've read Caro's book, and I had challenges with it as well due to his "value" of the tells (I forget how he rated the value of each tell, but I do recall it being laughable at the time even though there was some modicum of truth to the concept). At the same time I felt that the chapter on high and low confidence displays may have been one of the most revealing new categories in the discussions on tells to date but its not ground breaking work IMHO.

I think the greatest value in the book was the discussion of the psyche to someone who hasn't taken a basic psychology class in college, the physiological foundation to the tells, the reason why these tells exist. But as I stated if you already have this fundamental knowledge then there will be a much lesser value to the reader. The book essentially encourages observation, which is a good skill to develop as a poker player of course, but is not something that you can necessarily learn from a book (at least not from this book IMHO, I recall reading texts in college many years ago that did a better job of attempting to develop observational skills) it is an raw animalistic ability that some people have, and others don't. Its a survival skill, I could be wrong but I don't necessarily think its a learnable skill.

The problem with tells is that there is no one size fits all scenario. For example on page 76 Joe points out that ankles wrapped around a chair is a sign of restraint; that must mean I'm very often exhibiting this tell at the poker table because for me its a sign of fidgety legs - I wrap them around the chair to keep them from bouncing up and down. I guess that what I'm saying is that most of these tells are often mistaken for signs of something that they are not, only through careful observation and knowledge of your opponents behavior can true tells be discovered - and 9x out of 10 the tell is something much more subtle than the bitting of a lip, the wrapping of legs around a chair, or the steepling of an opponents hands (Mr. Navaro declares the most honest part of the body to be the feet, if this is true, and I am not claiming it is or isn't as I am not an expert in the field, then I must be a chronic lier!).

Additionally where Mr. Navaro (and Mr. Karlins his ghost writer) error is the innate trust in tells. Hand reading and your opponents betting patterns are a much more reliable tell than the way your opponent sits yet little is discussed about the fundamental poker skills within the book. Karlins himself believes the knowledge of the tells discussed within the book will give the reader a significant edge (preface - page xxii), personally I think the edge of the player who can exploit a player's belief in tells is much stronger.

In closing I don't want to give the appearance that I am slamming this book, on the contrary.. I am giving an objective opinion for someone with a similar skill set as my own. I'm sure there will be some people who can gain a lot from this reading material, but at the same time I believe there a far too many others who will misuse the advise given within because they lack fundamental hand reading skills yet rely too much on the "dark art" of tells.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that TT hasn't a right to make an assessment of the book

[/ QUOTE ]

You did not say that in so many words. But you took "exception to "TT's" remarks" and strongly implied that he was unqualified due to a jewelery deficiency.

[/ QUOTE ]

sniff sniff.... the truth is out. I don't have enough jewelry. Does that mean I must turn in my metro-sexual card? I feel like such a poser now!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
Navarro's revelations on tells will bring you new awareness of how to play more effective, winning poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

Learning how to read hands and betting patterns, a skill set that few know how to apply properly, is how to play more effective winning poker. Tells might add a small 1-3% edge to a winning player's ability at most, lets not try to pretend its something greater than that. With that said, there is great value in gaining any edge possible no matter how small... but overstating the value of edge would be misadvising the reader.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
As an author on Phil and Joe's book I must take exception to "TT's" remarks. When he says "If you have a basic understanding of psychology, logic, and the standard commonly known tells then the book isn't worth reading..." then I guess T.J. Cloutier, John Bonetti, Antonio Esfandiari and other pros--who took pages of notes when Navarro made his presentation (and praised his work) must not have known much of these topics!

[/ QUOTE ]

These are your words, not mine.. but yes its possible. Its also plausible that they were winning poker players for a long time due to other reasons besides their ability to find tells.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your claim that I "..obviously know very little about poker publishing..." My friend, I assure you, I know a great deal about publishing in general (20 published books with major NY houses) and poker publishing specifically (4 poker books published, three by major NY houses).

[/ QUOTE ]

Having lots of other books published and having two (not four as you corrected in your other post) books somewhat related to poker, plus what you have posted here makes it clear to me you know very little about poker publishing. Let me be specific with one example. Your Lyle Berman book is put out by the publisher who as far as I can tell pays the smallest royalties in the business. In general, any author who does a book with us will make about five times as much as he will make from that particular publisher. What else do I need to say?

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I also have authored over 200 articles, was a columnist and contributing editor for Gambling Times for a decade, am the Associate Editor of the Journal of Gambling Studies and a contributor to popular magazines and newspapers worldwide.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, even though I don't contribute to these magazines anymore, I think I had about 600 articles published, including many in Gambling Times back in the 1980s. What you don't point out is that getting an article published in one of these magazines by no means implies that you know anything worthwhile about gambling. Many of them would publish almost anything. A good example are the articles that GT published (again back in the 1980s) by Gail Howard on charting the lotteries so that you could determine which numbers were more likely to be hit. (See the essay "Lottery Fallacies" in my book Gambling Theory and Other Topics for more discussion.)

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Yes, Mason, you are not the only person that publishes on this site

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We have had many publishers come on this site. That's because this is the place if you want to promote and sell books. Why else would you be here?

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There were many books that just "happened to come out" at that time: Phil's book made it because: (1) it was well written; (2) it was published by a major house (HarperCollins) and (3) it was authored by a person who had a proven track record AT THE TABLES.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think your Point 1 is accurate, and I do know. There were no other poker books that came out at that time. They didn't start to appear for another six months. I agree with your Point 2 in terms of the English -- Andy Glazer did a good job -- but in terms of information it has some severe problems. And as for Point 3, he was certainly presented that way.

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Any of your books hit #1 lately?

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Actually, yes. Both Harrington on Hold 'em: Volume III and No Limit Hold 'em: Theory and Practice made it into the low thirties in terms of Amazon rankings, and both of these books were released on May 30, 2006. We also expect to release six books (and possibly more) in the next 12-15 months, and I anticipate at least four of them to make the Amazon top 100. Also, most of our books retail for $29.95 and are paperback. So having the type of sales we have had at those prices is amazingly good, and I think you'll agree. (For comparison, the Hellmuth book is $15.95.)

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My comment about sitting across from these guys was in relation to the statement challenging their analytical skills, not their writing ability. Read my quote again before you use it incorrectly, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do personally know most of these people, but the posters mainly only know them by the books they have read, and that's the way they'll be judged by most people here. So there was nothing incorrect in my statement.

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I"m sorry, but I think your Grand Poohbah "nickname" says it all; you might own the site and think you're the cat's meow but I assure you, when it comes to professionalism, you could do well to look in a mirror before you begin reflecting on other people's qualities.


[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I didn't pick that name. It was originally given to me by others associated with the administration of this site without my knowledge. But let me explain something to you and let me make this very clear to you. Our purpose at Two Plus Two is to only do top quality stuff. We could care less how someone like you might think of us on a personal basis. My advice on behaving professionally, which you were clearly struggling with, was designed to help you, not me.

[ QUOTE ]
You state: "These forums (and this website) is now the premier driver of poker book sales. Nothing else is even close." Documentation, please? Geez, can we have a little less ego here? I'm sure reviewers in major poker magazines and other media outlets might be a bit, well, shaken by their lack of influence when facing your dominating position in the market. By the way, speaking of poker magazines, you might want to read the review of our book in the September issue of Cardplayer. Then take two aspirins and write me in the morning. LOL!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, we're now approaching 1,500,000 total books sold (and again the vast majority of them are at $29.95 retail. But it
should be very easy for you to see this. Just go to Amazon and look at sales ranks. Also, go to Borders, Barnes & Noble, and Books-A-Million, etc. and look at what poker books are on the shelves. And if you want to go a step further, talk to some of our authors. You can also go to to www.alexa.com and www.big-boards.com and look at our statistics. There are no secrets here. One of the things you'll see is that Card Player is laging way behind us.

Also, big-boards will show you that we now get over 20,000 unique visitors every day, and Alexa will show you that they stay on our site far longer than they do on any other poker information site.

By the way, if your book got a good review in Card Player I have no problem with that. In fact, I hope your book is as good as you claim it is.

And finally, there is one other reason which should be obvious to you that my claims concerning our success are accurate. You showed up here to dispute comments that an anonymous Internet poster said about your book. If this place wasn't extremely important, why would you do something like that?

MM

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

Hi Scorer:

[ QUOTE ]
Mason bring the 2plus2 books out soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll get them done as soon as we can. Right now, the authors are hard at work. Then it will be our turn.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it comes down to who you want to believe...and, in my book, I tend to listen to PROVEN, WINNING poker players when evaluating the value of a poker book.


[/ QUOTE ]
I believe TT. He is a poker player and is involved in the publishing industry. If you find yourself in disagreement with TT in a discussion regarding poker or publishing, it is wise to go and recheck your facts because you are pretty much garaunteed to be wrong.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess it comes down to who you want to believe...and, in my book, I tend to listen to PROVEN, WINNING poker players when evaluating the value of a poker book.


[/ QUOTE ]
I believe TT. He is a poker player and is involved in the publishing industry. If you find yourself in disagreement with TT in a discussion regarding poker or publishing, it is wise to go and recheck your facts because you are pretty much garaunteed to be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just stating an opinion SB, I'm not laying down hard fact this time so believing me/not believing me is not an issue except in the eyes of Dr. Marvin Karlins, PHD.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I also have authored over 200 articles, was a columnist and contributing editor for Gambling Times for a decade, am the Associate Editor of the Journal of Gambling Studies and a contributor to popular magazines and newspapers worldwide.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, even though I don't contribute to these magazines anymore, I think I had about 600 articles published, including many in Gambling Times back in the 1980s. What you don't point out is that getting an article published in one of these magazines by no means implies that you know anything worthwhile about gambling. Many of them would publish almost anything. A good example are the articles that GT published (again back in the 1980s) by Gail Howard on charting the lotteries so that you could determine which numbers were more likely to be hit. (See the essay "Lottery Fallacies" in my book Gambling Theory and Other Topics for more discussion.)

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped myself from saying this is an earlier thread, but in a way I am glad Mason did because its a fact. As a publisher of magazines I know first hand the quality of research that goes into the standard article that is submitted for a few dollars (in some cases a few hundred, in others for free in exchange for exposure) and its amazingly poor. Editors accept the articles because their fact checking team is poor, and they don't have anything else to print! Now magnify this problem by 100 and we can see how errors contained within a poorly written article can affect the life of a gambler when bad advise is given.

In short having an article published about gambling in no way makes the author an expert on the subject, having the acceptance of the authors peers is the only true measure of expert status. As an example I don't think any of Mason's peers would not consider him to be an expert.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

Thanks for the summary *TT*. Seems like just another "body language" book. I'm not looking forward to it as much as I used to. But I'll still read it.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Quote:
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I guess it comes down to who you want to believe...and, in my book, I tend to listen to PROVEN, WINNING poker players when evaluating the value of a poker book.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I believe TT. He is a poker player and is involved in the publishing industry. If you find yourself in disagreement with TT in a discussion regarding poker or publishing, it is wise to go and recheck your facts because you are pretty much garaunteed to be wrong.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm just stating an opinion SB, I'm not laying down hard fact this time so believing me/not believing me is not an issue except in the eyes of Dr. Marvin Karlins, PHD.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have been on the losing end of enough discussions with you that if I find myself in disagreement, I go doublecheck my facts. The point of my post was to make sure Dr Marv understood that you are someone with sufficent knowledge and experience and not jusr an anonymus poster that may or may not have a clue.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

You are deluded if you really think your site is the biggest driver of sales for non-2+2 authors. Phil Hellmuth's books sell alot mainly because he appears on TV alot. There is nothing like appearing on a major cable or network show as an "expert" to give an author a platform for selling books. Just ask anyone who's been on Oprah. Speaking personally, I doubt that the debate I've had here about The Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells, even though it culminated in a moderately favorable assessment from Mason, will have any significant effect on sales, whereas I'm sure if I were interviewed as an "expert" on tells for 60 seconds on a WPT or ESPN WSOP broadcast, we'd see an immediate and dramatic sales spike.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

Dr. Karlins, a bit of advice: When you lie down in green pastures, be sure there's not a fire ant mound under you.

Guys, this has been an amazing topic, even by 2+2 standards. I've been sitting here glued to my seat, eating my popcorn, and tense at not knowing how it's going to turn out. Hitchcock would be proud. The new guy walks into town with a chip on his shoulder and is immediately thrown into the pit of despair from which there is no return. Great movie. It never gets old.

Sir, you may have the best book in the world, but I'm sorry to report you have lost huge amounts of credibility here. First, you did poor research on your audience, your attitude of condescension is totally outclassed here, and many of these guys are former academics who have sliced up more than a few residents of the ivory towers. This does not give me great faith in your book, unless you have done a better job of preparation there than here.

The fact that you hold Phil Helmuth in such high regard, well, ever heard of waving the red flag in front of the bull? Anyone who knows anything does not share your regard. That goes for the guys at the Big Game to many of us here who really do know. Sad to say, he's a joke to most accomplished poker players, and anyone who thinks he's the greatest is immediately dismissed as someone who doesn't know their ace from a hole in the ground.

Judging you strictly from your words here--and as someone with absolutely NO axe to grind--I feel you share the exact same problems with Mr. Helmuth, and that is a total lack of humility which makes you unable to admit when you are wrong and leads to hardening of the attitudes. He's the greatest poker player and you're the greatest author of poker books. See the connection?

You got spanked. But you probably didn't lose any book sales because we are more interested in making money than winning arguments. As hard as that is to believe. I'll buy the book, but I'm swallowing hard when I do it.

CJ

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

I'm not sure why TT's initial post was such a big deal. He clearly just offered his opinion, and any reader or poster on this website can make up his/her own mind as to whether TT's opinions are valuable or credible. IMO, TT has offered very good opinions and discussion on this board. Plus, I think TT backed up the reason for his opinions of the book. While that might rankle the author/writer of the book, it's not going to keep me from checking out the book, nor do I suspect it will keep others from doing so.

To Mason: Beyond ethical boundaries
 

Dear 2 + 2 posters,

Maybe Cactus Jack is right...his metaphor is fascinating, particularly since I have not seen some of the other posting "cliffhangers"; but being from Florida I can appreciate the painful lessons from fire ants.

I have no doubt that the majority of posters on this board are extremely bright and literate, at least from what I have read. I don't feel I came here with "a chip on my shoulder" but I did feel I had an opinion which I attempted to state in a reasonable manner. Anyone who reads the entire thread of these communications will note, I hope, that my early comments to Mason were entirely friendly and with TT, challenging but not adversarial. I did not respond in a more "adversarial mode" until I was attacked as "unprofessional", "not objective," etc. etc. etc.

Which brings me to this analysis. (1) Yes, I have an agenda; I am involved in the publication of a book I believe in and I feel justified in trying to defend it.
(2) Mason Malmuth also has an agenda; he is involved in publication of books and I feel he has a right in trying to defend his publications. (3) Anyone on this board has a right to challenge my views and I have a right to respond to those views. (4) Each reader of these messages is wise and skilled enough to draw their own conclusions as to which "side" has made the best case. (5) Mason Malmuth has published some excellent writers; however, as best I can determine he is a self-published writer himself (he publishes his own books). For those of you who don't write for a living this might not make much of a difference, but for those of us who have faced the rigors and challenges of getting manuscripts accepted through peer and editorial reviews by MAJOR publishing houses, there is a difference. (6) In response to my question: "Any of your books hit #1 lately?" Mason responds, "Actually, yes. Both Harrington on Hold 'em: Vol III and No Limit Hold 'em: Theory and Practice made it into the low thirties in terms of Amazon rankings, and both of these books were released on May 30, 2006." WOWSERS! Is this your idea of a #1 book? Low 30s on Amazon? Please, sir, you are a mathematical genius, but even you can't change a low 30 to a #1. And, it is AMAZON. How about USA Today or NY Times which taps the full range of booksales and uses proper sampling techniques. (7) You brag that "most of our books retail for $29.95 and are paperback. So having the type of sales we have had at those prices is amazingly good, and I think you'll agree." I do agree, and I think your price is highway robbery. You damn well better be giving good royalties at that price; your reader certainly is being overcharged. Our book is also a quality paperback and is retailing at $18.95; Phil's is, by your own quote, $15.95.

(9) This point needs to be separate because, in my estimation, you have good beyond the bounds of decency and ethical behavior when you made this inflammatory statement: "Your Lyle Berman book is put out by the publisher who as far as I can tell pays the smallest royalties in the business. In general, any author who does a book with us will make about five times as much as he will make from that particular publisher. What else do I need to say?"

Nothing after that ill-advised, unethical and totally incorrect statement. Dear readers, Publisher Malmuth has made unfounded accusations against a fellow publisher Avery Cardoza, a publisher with far more credentials that Mr. Malmuth will ever have.

I would like to give you Mr. Cardoza's response to Malmuth's charge. Here is his exact words: "My guess is he [Malmuth] pays based on net, what he receives, which is way less than list price, which we pay. If the list price royalty is converted to net-based royalty, which many publishers do, it would be about triple the net and would be one of the best in the business, so he is misinformed. We also spend a lot of money promoting books in stores, hundreds of thousands of dollars per year, none of which gets deducted from the authors.

One of Malmuth's very good friends of 25 years chose to go with us over him--what does that say? Not to mention the cream of the poker world publishes with us and not with him. We must be doing something right. Not to say that he doesn't do good books, because he does, but he's hurting with jealousy and pettiness.

We spend a lot more on printing our books than he does, happily so. Our books are manufactured on expensive 60# bright white high-quality paper. He prints the cheapest method possible, so when you open a 2 + 2 book, it slams shut on you like a clamshell. It's called cross-grain printing, which no reputable national publisher would use--only someone who puts out cheap-looking books to the detriment of his authors. In other words, like a small press. You can sum up the difference between me and him in one word: class.

And I can sum it up in two words: class dismissed.

Re: To Mason: Beyond ethical boundaries
 

[ QUOTE ]

And I can sum it up in two words: ass dismissed.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are deluded if you really think your site is the biggest driver of sales for non-2+2 authors. Phil Hellmuth's books sell alot mainly because he appears on TV alot. There is nothing like appearing on a major cable or network show as an "expert" to give an author a platform for selling books. Just ask anyone who's been on Oprah. Speaking personally, I doubt that the debate I've had here about The Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells, even though it culminated in a moderately favorable assessment from Mason, will have any significant effect on sales, whereas I'm sure if I were interviewed as an "expert" on tells for 60 seconds on a WPT or ESPN WSOP broadcast, we'd see an immediate and dramatic sales spike.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy just won't give up.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

[ QUOTE ]
Phil's book made it because: (1) it was well written

[/ QUOTE ]

Mayday!! Mayday!!

Seriously, it would do you well to use the search function and look to see how Hellmuth's (and others you mentioned) books were received.

Well written or not, book sales or not...a lot of the advice given in these books is entirely incorrect and would serve to hurt a person's game more than help. The purpose of this forum is to publish high quality books on poker, not just any book on poker.

To come to this forum and actually praise these books is doing you and especially Joe no favors.