AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

Just got back from my first ever Atlantic City trip. Wondering what you all thought of this hand. The villain in question was sitting with just over 7k and I covered. He had been calling raises fairly frequently with position over the course of the previous 2 hours but this is the first time I saw him show major aggression postflop. I had seen him call big turn and river bets twice, both times losing to another player who flopped a set (once he showed top two pair on a non flush/straight board). He seems to be a decent, somewhat too loose, passive player. On to the hand...

I raise after one EP limper to $125 with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Cutoff and villian(button) call, as does BB and EP limper. Flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The 5 of us see the flop. I lead for $400 (I think villain would have viewed me as a tight player, a tad on the aggressive side). Villain calls and everyone else folds. Turn brings the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], completing the rainbow. I bet $800 and villain calls. River is the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet $2000 and villain thinks for a second and pushes for 3k more. Now the pot has over 10k and it is 3k for me to call.

I was not too familiar with villain, but I can't imagine he would make this move as a bluff practically ever. Are there enough hands that a tight conservative player will push for value here that I beat (weaker 10s I suppose) that can justify this call? Any other thoughts about my line are appreciated.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

Uh is this a joke? Are you even considering folding? He would have reraised preflop with QQ so Q-10 is basiclly the only hand that beats you. He could easily think you were playing AA or KK this way. He must have had you beat and you want to post a bad beat story cause there is no way on earth you fold here, ever.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

Why would villian reraise with qq? QQ is definetly a realistic hand.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

The cutoff called, and the villian knows the limper is calling, You want to see a flop min 4 ways with QQ, even when you have position rather than A.) Finding out how big the raisers hand is and B.) Thinning the field just a little of low pairs?

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

the issue isn't how YOU think villain SHOULD have played QQ on the button--the question is whether a "passive" and "conservative" player (as op described him) COULD have played it. and the answer to that is most definitely.

frogger, i'm not good enough to fold here, but i think you're beat.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

If you would have read it said he was a "passive player" It isn't asking what you or I would have done it is what the villian did.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

Most conservative players protect big hands? I guess QQ isnt qualifying as a big hand to this conservative of a player? (no sarcasm)

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

He didn't say conservative he said passive.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

How big is QQ really? On any given flop you know that an ace or king is going to hit the flop 35% of the time.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

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Most conservative players protect big hands? I guess QQ isnt qualifying as a big hand to this conservative of a player? (no sarcasm)

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let's say you're villain. a tight-aggressive player open-raises to 5bb in early position. you're almost 300bb's deep and he covers you. if you reraise and he 4bets pf what do you do? so maybe you just call and hope to see a non-A/K flop before committing too many chips. i wouldn't find this surprising in the least.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

I agree with mikech....

also on another note: chezwiz your avatar is very distracting.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

what did you say I was looking at boobies

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

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I was not too familiar with villain, but I can't imagine he would make this move as a bluff practically ever. Are there enough hands that a tight conservative player will push for value here that I beat (weaker 10s I suppose) that can justify this call? Any other thoughts about my line are appreciated.

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sounds like u understand the situation. hes not bluffing but might be VBing the worst hand.
personally, i dont think 10:3 is enough to call here, guy like this pushes river after u bet all streets OOP and deep stacked, he usually has QQ.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

If he reraises you fold, is that difficult lol

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

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If he reraises you fold, is that difficult lol

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But that way you can't stack AT.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

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If he reraises you fold, is that difficult lol

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live play plays alot different than online play and people are far more passive. sometimes i see many of you say some scenarios are insta-calls but in live play many of them are insta-folds. its just the dynamics between the two games.

if i was in this hand id have to think about this river. whether i call or not is largely going to depend on whether i think villain puts me on AA-KK-AQ after betting 3 streets and whether hed value-push a smaller ten on this river or not. generally though, against the described player i think you probably have to call.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

your avatar is irritating

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

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I was not too familiar with villain, but I can't imagine he would make this move as a bluff practically ever. Are there enough hands that a tight conservative player will push for value here that I beat (weaker 10s I suppose) that can justify this call? Any other thoughts about my line are appreciated.

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sounds like u understand the situation. hes not bluffing but might be VBing the worst hand.
personally, i dont think 10:3 is enough to call here, guy like this pushes river after u bet all streets OOP and deep stacked, he usually has QQ.

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after rereading the post sober i think u gotta call here, but i really dont like these bet sizes, esp the river bet. u really put yourself in this tricky spot.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

He's gone to showdown light but this is his first aggression. Yikes. Question I have is the size of your bets and were they related to your image. Is pot control an issue there or were you making the same size bets when you missed with AK? Did you get looked up empty?

All your bets were >1/2 but <3/4's. Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't it better to go between at least 3/4's and pot there?

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

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I agree with mikech....

also on another note: chezwiz your avatar is very distracting.

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was that an observation or a complaint?

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

Turn and river bets may have been too small. Until villain showed river aggression I thought it was very possible he just had a big queen, and I was trying to make bets I thought he could call. Since river bluff raise was out of the question in my mind, I guess the negative of making less than pot size bets here is giving up value to a smaller 10 or a villain who can't get away from a big queen, while I gain some value in getting a big queen to call sometimes and maybe saving a little on river if he raises me and I find a fold.

Results
 

Thanks for all the feedback. Thought I might get flamed for folding here, but guess my play wasn't too ridiculous. Villain didn't show so I have no idea whether I was beat or not. At the time I thought Q10s was his most likely holding if I was beat, but I think he would play QQ this way much of the time too.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

wow i couldnt even fathom a fold here unless you know the guys middle name where he went to high school and what his favorite drink is. All you know is he's a little tightish and its your first trip to AC (so u cant know him too well). I call, and expect to see donkish stuff plenty of the time (along w/ occasional Tx).

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

Vomit.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

man i call all day long here especially getting over 3:1 on my river call. However i would expect to see a turned full house a small percantage of the time. Neverless folding here is -ev play IMO

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

I think I witness this hand. Was the Villian in the 2 seat and you were in the six seat or close to that? The villian is a young guy wearing a hat and glasses? I'll let you know my opinion if this is the situation you were talking about.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

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man i call all day long here especially getting over 3:1 on my river call. However i would expect to see a turned full house a small percantage of the time. Neverless folding here is -ev play IMO

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102? 22? huh?

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

On the river, how many hands will your opponent call 2k with that wouldn't bet a similar amount if checked to?

I think you can get the money in as a decent favorite here by c/r'ing the river.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

well, it's a guy who doesn't raise with top 2 pair on a board with no straights or flushes.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

In my opinion this is definitely a fold, but a tough one only because of the river pot odds. First of all, what kind of donkey would raise with QQ in this position? The correct move is to slowplay the boat. Also, I don't think the guy would put you on AA, KK, or AQ because you bet all the way thru. Being out of position, most players would be afraid of the other player holding the 10, unless of course you have it. You are also showing strength throughout the hand, especially against 4 other players, so it's possible that YOU'RE the one with QQ. If the villain had only a 10 on the flop, and not a boat, he would have raised on the flop with one caller in the hand to chase out the draws. Finally, he is a passive player and checked top 2 earlier.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

Easy fold. QQ or QT are the only hands he could raise that river.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

I have a question. In this spot where you fold do you want to make some effort to represent KQ or some hand other than trips or do you just assume that astute opponents will realise that you _might_ have laid down trips and just take that into account in future action?

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

what the hell are up with these stupid ass responses? high stakes forums is getting retarded now. easy fold!? wow villian could easily have any 10 that doesn't involve a boat. as you said he calls very light in position. villian probably puts you on KK or AA. i don't know, but this is not an easy fold for me.

and to chezwiz, are you serious? i think he would repop preflop with QQ OTB like 99% of the time.

he could have so many hands, K10, J10, 109, and so on and so forth.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

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In my opinion this is definitely a fold, but a tough one only because of the river pot odds. First of all, what kind of donkey would raise with QQ in this position? The correct move is to slowplay the boat. Also, I don't think the guy would put you on AA, KK, or AQ because you bet all the way thru. Being out of position, most players would be afraid of the other player holding the 10, unless of course you have it. You are also showing strength throughout the hand, especially against 4 other players, so it's possible that YOU'RE the one with QQ. If the villain had only a 10 on the flop, and not a boat, he would have raised on the flop with one caller in the hand to chase out the draws. Finally, he is a passive player and checked top 2 earlier.

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lol wow

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

Those that are saying it is an "easy" fold or call are just being stupid. If I'm making a call it's going to be a crying one, and it would be a crying fold as well.

Anyway, how the hell can you possible say something like he'll repop with QQ 99% of the time given OP's description of villain? he said that he had CALLED with top 2 pair in another hand and was being passive. passive players don't 3 bet with QQ even though they should.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

By defining a "passive" player, what hands do you think he could smoothly called flop & turn bets then raised big @ river? If there is no indication that he is a passive player, it would be a tough call/fold. However, for a player who only "called" with 2 pairs, do you think he would raise with trips on the river without worrying of being drawn out before the river card was dealt?

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

This is a call

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

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I raise after one EP limper to $125 with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Cutoff and villian(button) call, as does BB and EP limper. Flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The 5 of us see the flop. I lead for $400 (I think villain would have viewed me as a tight player, a tad on the aggressive side). Villain calls and everyone else folds. Turn brings the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], completing the rainbow. I bet $800 and villain calls. River is the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet $2000 and villain thinks for a second and pushes for 3k more. Now the pot has over 10k and it is 3k for me to call.

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Frogger,

the 10/25 games in AC are not difficult to beat, but you will get crushed if you make folds like these getting better than 3:1. The smooth call on the flop in a multiway pot probably means trips, and your line looks like AA/KK. Villain could have QT, but he could have KT/JT/T9/T8... his pf calling range is very wide on the button in this hand. You might be beat by a boat, but you only have to be ahead ~1/4 times to make this call. My guess is that you're ahead more than 4/5 times. This is a really bad fold with the price you're getting.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

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Frogger,

the 10/25 games in AC are not difficult to beat, but you will get crushed if you make folds like these getting better than 3:1. The smooth call on the flop in a multiway pot probably means trips, and your line looks like AA/KK. Villain could have QT, but he could have KT/JT/T9/T8... his pf calling range is very wide on the button in this hand. You might be beat by a boat, but you only have to be ahead ~1/4 times to make this call. My guess is that you're ahead more than 4/5 times. This is a really bad fold with the price you're getting.

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yes, i think this is a call, but saying hero is ahead > 80% of the time is insane. It's probably alot closer to 40% vs. described villian.

Re: AC 10-25 River Surprise
 

I was not too familiar with villain, but I can't imagine he would make this move as a bluff practically ever.

If he has a "feeling" you think this of him, he picked the perfect time to bluff.

Post the results.