2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

ok, didnt know much about my opp... he sat down an orbit ago, didnt catch anything he showed down, so really an unknown. TAGgy screenname tho.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

BB ($2460.74)
UTG ($6439.41)
MP ($4590.24)
Button ($1878.60)
Hero ($1980)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $50</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $155</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $323</font>, BB calls $158.

Flop: ($666) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $425</font>, BB calls $425.

Turn: ($1516) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

1220 left, in our stacks whats your play? how likely do u think AQ is good here?
so, push, c/fold, or c/call/rz?

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

People posting $2k max hands in the medium stakes NL forum makes me feel like a wussy [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

WTF gives with that bitchy little 4-bet?

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

Pooooooooooosh

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

Jesus.

I hate the weak reraise preflop. You really can't narrow villain's range to anything. He could've called that flop with like A9 or AdA, who the hell knows. Basically I dont think any worse hand is calling your push on the turn but I think a worse one may push if you check, not wanting to give up a free diamond on the river.

I check call. it's a mess though.

actually wtf am i talking about no one is drawing here given this action. there's no way you have the best hand just check fold

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the weak reraise preflop. You really can't narrow villain's range to anything. He could've called that flop with like A9

[/ QUOTE ]
The small re-raise, while technically offering good direct odds, offers [censored] for implied odds. No hand really has odds to call to hit. I can't imagine personally taking a flop with A9 or some junk (I'd push or fold, almost always fold), but I have no diea how an unknown opponent would respond to a "small" 4-bet like this.

If you had 4-bet for slightly more, I would definitely say check/fold.... but here, I'm not sure, as I've never made a raise quite like that, myself.

OTOH: It's pretty nutty to try to float on a flop like this, and the hands that you beat aren't really gonna wanna put much more in, as I really don't think they think that they can ever blow you off a big pair, and they probably think that you'd push with the NFD.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I hate the weak reraise preflop. You really can't narrow villain's range to anything. He could've called that flop with like A9

[/ QUOTE ]
The small re-raise, while technically offering good direct odds, offers [censored] for implied odds. No hand really has odds to call to hit. I can't imagine personally taking a flop with A9 or some junk (I'd push or fold, almost always fold), but I have no diea how an unknown opponent would respond to a "small" 4-bet like this.

If you had 4-bet for slightly more, I would definitely say check/fold.... but here, I'm not sure, as I've never made a raise quite like that, myself.

OTOH: It's pretty nutty to try to float on a flop like this, and the hands that you beat aren't really gonna wanna put much more in, as I really don't think they think that they can ever blow you off a big pair, and they probably think that you'd push with the NFD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim, they may not think they need much in the way of implied odds. Flawless' actions are pretty much indicative of his hand. I never see big pairs played like this preflop in blind battles. I see villain calling with quite a few hands here.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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I never see big pairs played like this preflop in blind battles.

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how do ppl play them?

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate the weak reraise preflop. You really can't narrow villain's range to anything. He could've called that flop with like A9

[/ QUOTE ]
The small re-raise, while technically offering good direct odds, offers [censored] for implied odds. No hand really has odds to call to hit. I can't imagine personally taking a flop with A9 or some junk (I'd push or fold, almost always fold), but I have no diea how an unknown opponent would respond to a "small" 4-bet like this.

If you had 4-bet for slightly more, I would definitely say check/fold.... but here, I'm not sure, as I've never made a raise quite like that, myself.

OTOH: It's pretty nutty to try to float on a flop like this, and the hands that you beat aren't really gonna wanna put much more in, as I really don't think they think that they can ever blow you off a big pair, and they probably think that you'd push with the NFD.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the point about the relatively small 4-bet is that it makes a big pot with a hand that hero will hardly ever be totally confident is best at any point in the hand. Against a villian that hero knows is overly tight, or entirely predictable, or just plain bad then it may be a good play. It may also be that hero has no issues about playing lots of big pots at these stakes and feels his post-flop play is good. This can make these bets very much good plays, but against an unknown and OOP it looks like the bet puts too much pressure on hero so instinctively looks a little bit iffy.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never see big pairs played like this preflop in blind battles.

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In a blind battle is one place where I almost always 4-bet AA/KK.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I never see big pairs played like this preflop in blind battles.

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In a blind battle is one place where I almost always 4-bet AA/KK.

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right but since i'm also 4 betting other hands as well, my 4 bet range is fairly wide in blind battles and get called a decent amount. Therefore I dont mini 4 bet with AA and KK and make larger raises with them or call before this poitn and slowplay the flop. These mini raises to me always scream "look i'm representing a big pair without risking too many chips"

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

I think the small 4 bet is especially not optimal out of position since people often talk t hemselves into calling it and then you miss the flop 1/3 the time and find yourself lost, first to act with a big pot on your hand

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

[ QUOTE ]
These mini raises to me always scream "look i'm representing a big pair without risking too many chips"

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Question, of course, is how we think an unknown thinks about it.

Like I say, I'm not really sure, it's not a situation I've dealt with.

C/c just seems so unlikely to induce a bluff, to me, so if I thought his range might be wide, I'd go ahead and push, and hope he makes a hero call on me, while preventing an ugly [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] river card from killing our hand.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
These mini raises to me always scream "look i'm representing a big pair without risking too many chips"

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Question, of course, is how we think an unknown thinks about it.

Like I say, I'm not really sure, it's not a situation I've dealt with.

C/c just seems so unlikely to induce a bluff, to me, so if I thought his range might be wide, I'd go ahead and push, and hope he makes a hero call on me, while preventing an ugly [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] river card from killing our hand.

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i dunno, villain has to be somewhat scared of hero having a big pair, the board is frightening, and yet he's still in the pot on the turn. what the hell hand is he then calling our push with that we beat? i just think it's a bit of a spew after the way the rest of the hand has gone

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
These mini raises to me always scream "look i'm representing a big pair without risking too many chips"

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Question, of course, is how we think an unknown thinks about it.

Like I say, I'm not really sure, it's not a situation I've dealt with.

C/c just seems so unlikely to induce a bluff, to me, so if I thought his range might be wide, I'd go ahead and push, and hope he makes a hero call on me, while preventing an ugly [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] river card from killing our hand.

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i dunno, villain has to be somewhat scared of hero having a big pair, the board is frightening, and yet he's still in the pot on the turn. what the hell hand is he then calling our push with that we beat? i just think it's a bit of a spew after the way the rest of the hand has gone

[/ QUOTE ]
C/f, but push blank river if it checks through? Maybe a smaller value bet (sick odds to fold to a raise, though). You think this increases his calling range much?

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

Looks perfect to me. I push turn here with a lot of hands, this one included.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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WTF gives with that bitchy little 4-bet?

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I agree. I think I owuld 4bet to 500 total.

Asx played if you shove turn, I dont think villain folds midpocket pair with a diamond like ever. Same goes with 9x with a diamond. 9x no diamond might have to run their timer down a bit though.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

put it in, he will call you with a pair+diamond.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

Everyone who is critiquing preflop play is wrong. Betting bigger is ok, but OP's line is perfectly fine. Stop being idiots, please. He's not giving odds to hit a set, so if he had AA here, his re-raise size would be fine. So it's fine with AQ.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

Push
You ain't going anywhere and his most likely holding given play is a lower pair plus a diamond or Overcards with a diamond.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

im gonna sayyyy check and fold the flop, given that he just sat down an orbit ago, you really have no reads on him (and his 4-bet call alone implies either something strong or something stubborn that will at least peel the flop, especially if it contains a diamond or is a high pair). Putting you in a tricky, tricky situation on nearly every turn, including the ones that improve you.

given you got to the turn, i think it has to be a push with these stacks, mainly because you have to figure TT, JJ, AK or xx with a diamond makes up some portion of his range (not nec. a big part, but some portion), and coupled with the money in the middle, i'd just put it in.

i also agree that you should have 4-bet more preflop, but it's not a big deal at all.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

checking is not an option.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

preflop is kinda weird, but not terrible. i see you taking it down a lot on the flop after that action. push turn, you can't fold i don't think and worse hands/draws will check behind. also, what's a taggy screenname look like?

jkratzer

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

[ QUOTE ]
He's not giving odds to hit a set

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BB is getting like 3-1 immediate and then they have ~1650 effective stacks going into the flop against what is likely a very strong hand. No PP is folding ever.

Edit- I don't really think the raise is bad, but you can't say he's not giving odds.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

he's not giving odds. he has to call 200 more with 1600 behind. that's not good enough to be profitable. don't forget all the times he hits a set and ends up losing 2K. You have to AVERAGE 1600 profit to make the call profitable. No way that is the case here.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

He has to call 158 more getting 3-1. Odds of hitting a set are 7.5-1 which means he has to make ~700$ postflop when he makes a set. And with position in this big of a pot against what is likely a very strong hand, he should be calling any PP here.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

With reasonable assumptions (fold any non-set on flop, lose stack 5-10% of time hitting set) you have to make 1200-1500 total when you hit a set. I don't think it's possible with these stacks. It is obviously close and, as I said, he could have made it bigger. But I really don't think calling here with 22, say, is a winning play.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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People posting $2k max hands in the medium stakes NL forum makes me feel like a wussy [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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PPL have been posting 400NL in SSNL too. Seems there's a bit of level creep.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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im gonna sayyyy check and fold the flop,

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I also agree with this.

As a standard, I don't think that cbetting in 4-bet pots is really wise, without a good draw/hand or a board with scary high cards. While the monotone flop is a bit scary, in and of itself, pairs just aren't gonna fold here often enough for a cbet to be +EV, by my estimate.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

[ QUOTE ]
With reasonable assumptions (fold any non-set on flop, lose stack 5-10% of time hitting set) you have to make 1200-1500 total when you hit a set. I don't think it's possible with these stacks. It is obviously close and, as I said, he could have made it bigger. But I really don't think calling here with 22, say, is a winning play.

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If you were villian and knew hero had aces (and hero didn't know that you knew) then I'd say you have odds on calling with any pair (and you have to think mid-pair for villian to 3-bet anyway). I've already said what I think about the PF 4-bet and there are issues beyond not-giving-odds-on-a-pair-hitting.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

How weaksauce is it to fold to his PF RR and make note (because he's an unknown..)?

I too would have 4bet (and probably more) but I quite often find myself in really tricky situations like this, wondering whether I should have just mucked pf to the RR instead of getting involved in a big pot OOP with a non-premium hand...

As played, it really looks to me like villain has a hand like AK with a diamond, or an overpair (possibly with or without a diamond)... and with him being an unknown, I'm not sure what size of his range he's calling a turn push with, but I'm pretty confident you are ahead here most of the time. I push the turn and am not unhappy about a call.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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what's a taggy screenname look like?

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smartTAG

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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what's a taggy screenname look like?

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smartTAG

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anything that goe slike this:

XXXXXXX_

( note the importance of the "_")

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
what's a taggy screenname look like?

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loloTRICKEDu

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or basically anything w/out a number on the end, hahah.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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I'd say you have odds on calling with any pair (and you have to think mid-pair for villian to 3-bet anyway)

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Hero is offering ~12:1 implieds if he stacks off every time. If he had AA every time, villian is getting decent odds. Since hero's range is obviously wider than that, his implied odds are clearly significantly worse than that.

Offering perceived implied odds is a double edged sword, in this spot. By offering them, we presumeably get ourselves up against a weaker range, making the pot easier to take down in general when we whiff, but OTOH, we have to fire out that CBet, which is bound to be pretty expensive, and probably only slightly +EV, unless you have widened his range SIGNIFICANTLY by making the small raise, as opposed to a larger one.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what's a taggy screenname look like?

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loloTRICKEDu

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or basically anything w/out a number on the end, hahah.

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Ha, I put a number on the end of mine for just this reason!

Krishan

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

i check fold flop, but as played out, im shoving turn like.. 83% of the time. holla

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

[ QUOTE ]
put it in, he will call you with a pair+diamond.

[/ QUOTE ]Which I think he has here like 75% of the time. Hopefully its a smaller pair then Qs, but I'd shove. Also I don't know what you guys are talking about, preflop reraise size is fine, although personally I'd just call.

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a standard, I don't think that cbetting in 4-bet pots is really wise, without a good draw/hand or a board with scary high cards.

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If cbetting in 4-bet pots is unwise unless you hit (and apparently, sometimes even when you hit), and you'll only hit ~1/3rd of the time with unpaired cards, then how often does villan need to fold preflop for your AK/AQ 4bet to be profitable? And do people generally fold that often? without doing the math, my guess is no, not even close.

EDIT: Put Quote Back

Re: 2K6m. tricky TPTK OOP.
 

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without doing the math, my guess is no, not even close.

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If you think that people are calling 4-bets light, you're crazy.