2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

villain is mostly unknown to me was seems to be a little wild... he has raised pre like half of his hands in the first 2 orbits, thats the extent of our experience... no1 has showed anything weird... trust me i wish i had played more w/ this guy.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

SB ($1980)
BB ($2342.46)
UTG ($3002)
MP ($1303)
Hero ($3288)
Button ($4172)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $50</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $30.

Flop: ($160) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $125</font>, Hero calls $125, BB folds.

Turn: ($410) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $350</font>, Hero calls $350.

River: ($1110) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG calls $2477 (All-In).


ok, so the turn and river is just mixing it up/ inducing a bluff/etc... i had the feeling that this guy was pretty aggro so i wanted to let him bluff/ VB thin... i was planning on pushing over another 3/4 bet but then he shoves and im not sure i like my hand so much...

pay this off or make a huge laydown?

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

I'm calling.

Edit: Gah, missed out on the straight completing (again..). Makes it tricker; I would have called if river was K, now I don't really know.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

i think this is a fold and even i call too much on the riv.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

man...tough hand. i definitely expect a straight a decent amount. because of the overbet, you're not getting very good odds. i think it may be time for a big laydown. then again, you tried to induce a bluff...so you may have. tough hand.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm calling.

Edit: Gah, missed out on the straight completing (again..). Makes it tricker; I would have called if river was K, now I don't really know.

[/ QUOTE ]

what diff does K vs Q make?

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

J9 obv

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

I reluctantly call this, probably rationalizing to my self that id end up putting the money in anyways if i had come over top of his river bet. Still, not a very good rationalization.

If your opponent is a novice with the keyboard or mouse, he might have accidently punched an allin in. He might even be grossly overplaying 2pair, or doing some retardo move with KK. We cant really tell. He is an unknown, and unknowns do tend to be donks.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

Maybe it's the opposite, but his 3/4 flop and turn bets look defensive to me, while the river overbet looks like he wants a call. If I felt like that was the case at the time, I fold.

I can see him having AQ here as easily as J9. It sucks giving your chips to unk's who play wild and get there. Which is why I consistently play flop/turn faster than I used too.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]
J9 obv

[/ QUOTE ]

meh. QJ was double gutter, and he leads flop with it.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

Yes, but you have to think the other way around as well; he isn't FEARING J9 here, and he should, since it's a very likely hand for us, whereas QJ is much more unlikely for us to have given our flop call.

Also, given our passive line, I think he could very well be valuepushing AK should river be a K.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

Does villian really bet almost a psb closer to 3/4 pot on turn with J/9?? This could easily be him representing an ace and getting 2 pair on river. However, generally calling a huge overbet is not good.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

I cannot think of folding here ever.
AQ AT T8 QT( i think he raises the last 2 given what u said)

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

Flawless,

Although i am sure you had your reasons, i don't think the turn clal can be justified with these stacks, too often a scare card comes that doesn't get you paid or makes you the second best hand, i really think you need to jack it up here.

As for the river, man it's so tough. I don't think folding is bad, but at the same time, if he has AQ or AT, which are as likely as anything until he pushes the river, he probably feels that the only viable hand you could have to beat him in J9, so may feel like he has the second nuts here.... Tough hand

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

Looks like a fold too me.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm calling.

Edit: Gah, missed out on the straight completing (again..). Makes it tricker; I would have called if river was K, now I don't really know.

[/ QUOTE ]

King is a much wrose card then the queen. Or at least doesn't make a difference

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

FV,

Who was villian?

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

Good2cu, you are incorrect.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think this is a fold and even i call too much on the riv.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good2cu, you are incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]
the point is the guy is moving in on a potentially strong card for ME.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

yo ggggb,
i called on the flop cause the BB was a fish and i decided to go ahead and allow him to potentilly stay involved...

turn, weird card came and his bet was strong and in tempo... i felt like he would bet river as a bluff w/ nohting or a VB w/ an ace so i could lock up 800-1kish right there... i knowingly took the gamble knowng a str8 card can come and complicate things. i guess i did this to myself, ok.
if we had more history and he had reason to think i am out of line then i wouldve gone ahead and played it standard by raising on turn and hoping to get it in.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

I like turn value here.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

i may call if i forgot what a straight looked like.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

Seems like a very tough river call. You said villian was a bad player... do this make you more or less inclined to call the push? For me if he was bad I would more likely think he has you beat... I can't see a weak player getting very tricky here with a big bluff. But I suppose it really depends on what type of weak player he was.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flawless,

Although i am sure you had your reasons, i don't think the turn clal can be justified with these stacks, too often a scare card comes that doesn't get you paid or makes you the second best hand, i really think you need to jack it up here.

As for the river, man it's so tough. I don't think folding is bad, but at the same time, if he has AQ or AT, which are as likely as anything until he pushes the river, he probably feels that the only viable hand you could have to beat him in J9, so may feel like he has the second nuts here.... Tough hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Gabe,

I dont like your thinking much here. I see no reason to raise this turn. Very few scare cards with this action are going to cause me to fold on the river, with typical action. In my opinion, the villain doesnt see this queen, with some weak hand or 3 barrel bluff hand, and go, wow if I overbet push here I might be able to represent a straight or a huge hand and cause my opponent to fold bottom set!

I like calling the turn for deception reasons here occasionally, and against some people who may fold second best hands to a raise, it is likely the correct decision. On the river, the overbet probably saved you money and I think you have to pitch your hand. Contrary to what TBG said, I really think a lot of those 2 pair hands are some of the most unlikely hands a villain could have here. This is so rarely a thin-ish value bet. There cant be many worse hands that play this way for value, maybe AQ or AT. Fold.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

Against a regular or someone I'm tangling with, I would like a call on this turn to change it up a little and becuase I love fancy play. But against someone who I don't have a read on, I don't mind the flop call, but I'd much much much rather jack it up on the turn.

I think that the vote for a call it because we're so sickly under repped that he might shove because he thinks two pair is the nutters, but I would also say that is usually clouding our thinking process and he's got 97 or J9 (or maybe even a bigger set I guess) plenty often enough to make this a fold vs the overbet.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

edit: nevermind

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flawless,

Although i am sure you had your reasons, i don't think the turn clal can be justified with these stacks, too often a scare card comes that doesn't get you paid or makes you the second best hand, i really think you need to jack it up here.

As for the river, man it's so tough. I don't think folding is bad, but at the same time, if he has AQ or AT, which are as likely as anything until he pushes the river, he probably feels that the only viable hand you could have to beat him in J9, so may feel like he has the second nuts here.... Tough hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Gabe,

I dont like your thinking much here. I see no reason to raise this turn. Very few scare cards with this action are going to cause me to fold on the river, with typical action. In my opinion, the villain doesnt see this queen, with some weak hand or 3 barrel bluff hand, and go, wow if I overbet push here I might be able to represent a straight or a huge hand and cause my opponent to fold bottom set!

I like calling the turn for deception reasons here occasionally, and against some people who may fold second best hands to a raise, it is likely the correct decision. On the river, the overbet probably saved you money and I think you have to pitch your hand. Contrary to what TBG said, I really think a lot of those 2 pair hands are some of the most unlikely hands a villain could have here. This is so rarely a thin-ish value bet. There cant be many worse hands that play this way for value, maybe AQ or AT. Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am shocked!
SHOCKED!
I didnt even think this decision was close...
With how underrepresented your hand, i cant believe so many are advocating a fold, and i DEF cant believe Strasser is advocating a fold!

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flawless,

Although i am sure you had your reasons, i don't think the turn clal can be justified with these stacks, too often a scare card comes that doesn't get you paid or makes you the second best hand, i really think you need to jack it up here.

As for the river, man it's so tough. I don't think folding is bad, but at the same time, if he has AQ or AT, which are as likely as anything until he pushes the river, he probably feels that the only viable hand you could have to beat him in J9, so may feel like he has the second nuts here.... Tough hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Gabe,

I dont like your thinking much here. I see no reason to raise this turn. Very few scare cards with this action are going to cause me to fold on the river, with typical action. In my opinion, the villain doesnt see this queen, with some weak hand or 3 barrel bluff hand, and go, wow if I overbet push here I might be able to represent a straight or a huge hand and cause my opponent to fold bottom set!

I like calling the turn for deception reasons here occasionally, and against some people who may fold second best hands to a raise, it is likely the correct decision. On the river, the overbet probably saved you money and I think you have to pitch your hand. Contrary to what TBG said, I really think a lot of those 2 pair hands are some of the most unlikely hands a villain could have here. This is so rarely a thin-ish value bet. There cant be many worse hands that play this way for value, maybe AQ or AT. Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am shocked!
SHOCKED!
I didnt even think this decision was close...
With how underrepresented your hand, i cant believe so many are advocating a fold, and i DEF cant believe Strasser is advocating a fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

I can believe it, because they make some decent points, but I am calling here for sure. Contrary to Strassa's opinion, I do think you'll look at top two or Aces up a fair amount, here. I think you played it fine until the river; the only cards that kill your action/potentially scare YOU are a 7 and a 9--not too shabby. I'd call the river.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but you have to think the other way around as well; he isn't FEARING J9 here, and he should, since it's a very likely hand for us, whereas QJ is much more unlikely for us to have given our flop call.

Also, given our passive line, I think he could very well be valuepushing AK should river be a K.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL yea dude people dont value push 2 pair like this.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I am shocked!
SHOCKED!
I didnt even think this decision was close...
With how underrepresented your hand, i cant believe so many are advocating a fold, and i DEF cant believe Strasser is advocating a fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

your style of play is throwing you off here -- just because you put in 2x pot on a bluff doesn't mean other people do it

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flawless,

Although i am sure you had your reasons, i don't think the turn clal can be justified with these stacks, too often a scare card comes that doesn't get you paid or makes you the second best hand, i really think you need to jack it up here.

As for the river, man it's so tough. I don't think folding is bad, but at the same time, if he has AQ or AT, which are as likely as anything until he pushes the river, he probably feels that the only viable hand you could have to beat him in J9, so may feel like he has the second nuts here.... Tough hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Gabe,

I dont like your thinking much here. I see no reason to raise this turn. Very few scare cards with this action are going to cause me to fold on the river, with typical action. In my opinion, the villain doesnt see this queen, with some weak hand or 3 barrel bluff hand, and go, wow if I overbet push here I might be able to represent a straight or a huge hand and cause my opponent to fold bottom set!

I like calling the turn for deception reasons here occasionally, and against some people who may fold second best hands to a raise, it is likely the correct decision. On the river, the overbet probably saved you money and I think you have to pitch your hand. Contrary to what TBG said, I really think a lot of those 2 pair hands are some of the most unlikely hands a villain could have here. This is so rarely a thin-ish value bet. There cant be many worse hands that play this way for value, maybe AQ or AT. Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am shocked!
SHOCKED!
I didnt even think this decision was close...
With how underrepresented your hand, i cant believe so many are advocating a fold, and i DEF cant believe Strasser is advocating a fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

I can believe it, because they make some decent points, but I am calling here for sure. Contrary to Strassa's opinion, I do think you'll look at top two or Aces up a fair amount, here. I think you played it fine until the river; the only cards that kill your action/potentially scare YOU are a 7 and a 9--not too shabby. I'd call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually think this is almost always a straight and rarely a set or two pair.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

against a seemingly unknown i can't fold this. all the points about the river being a card that is more likely to improve our hand but him showing strength are valid but against an unknown i'm calling this.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I am shocked!
SHOCKED!
I didnt even think this decision was close...
With how underrepresented your hand, i cant believe so many are advocating a fold, and i DEF cant believe Strasser is advocating a fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

your style of play is throwing you off here -- just because you put in 2x pot on a bluff doesn't mean other people do it

[/ QUOTE ]
Top two isnt a bluff, some1 already said that the opponent might think j9 is possibly the only hand brian could have here and hence might think that AQ is the "second nuts"
and i agree with that.
The reason i said i was shocked is because Jason Strasser always talks about calling such bets when you have underrepresented your hand, and brian's hand is extremely well disguised.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

My first thought was that this is at worst QQQ. My second thought rereading description of villain is that he might be wild enough to bluff push here.
A good thinking player will overbet push a disguised monster for value, but based on your description of villain he might be bluffing. More hands with him would be nice to have first obv. If you'd seen him play that wildly for 5-6 rounds I'd definitely call.

"So, to answer your question, I don't know."

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

tbg

im struggling with this hand, to be honest. i might be able to sway this to a call. In practice, I rarely see this big bet from a worse made hand. But in theory, I think the opponent definitely should be value betting like this with worse made hands, which pushes this to a call. If he holds Aces up or something like that, there is really no reason to ever think his hand is not good on the river, so if he thinks you are capable of being a hero, or using reverse psychology against yourself, then I think a capable opponent should push a lot of pair hands.

Its a call not only because you beat hands that could b value betting, but your opponents bluff freq should also be fairly high if he is playing well, because how the f'ck can u call here very often.

So in theory, call! I still just dont see this enough from pure bluffs or worse made hands, but I think against a very good opponent I call, and against a non thinking player where you only beat a bluff (and your hand is as good as one pair of aces) I fold.

ni han
jason

the results.
 

i thought for about 10 secs and folded, no show.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

[ QUOTE ]
in theory, I think the opponent definitely should be value betting like this with worse made hands

[/ QUOTE ]

as a SSNL donk I can tell you you shouldn't make decisions based on what your opponent should do, esp. an unknown.

You gotta go with your instinct. Your 1st post is [censored] awesome:

[ QUOTE ]
the villain doesnt see this queen, with some weak hand or 3 barrel bluff hand, and go, wow if I overbet push here I might be able to represent a straight or a huge hand and cause my opponent to fold bottom set!

[/ QUOTE ]
Granted, he doesn't have hero on bottom set... but he prob. doesn't have hero on anything.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

Flawless,

I will admit that i am incredibly biased here, since everytime i slowplay a set i get stacked or get no value. I understand your rational, but given your description, i don't think someone will value bet and ace on the river but fold to a turn raise with it if they are bad.

Now Strasser, i think the value a of a turn raise is that bad players stack off with all sorts of big aces, aces up, and A7 A9 type hands. Now if the river is a blank, the same may be true, but if it's a straigh card, bad players are more inclined to c/c than a good player who will make a thinner value bet IMO.

Now that i have had some more time to think about this though, i definilty think a fold is good here, i agree with empire and strasser, this river should jus tbe a fold, i really don't think you get shown aces up or a bluff here.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

i like the fold FV, given the player info u had at the time anyways.

Re: 2K6m. bottom set facing a big river push.
 

I like the fold.

We know he'll play 9J like this and we are argueing if we do or don't see two pair hands play like this, so that discounts them all a fair amount and even if they don't get discount it means the sets also don't get discount as the same logic applies to them as the two pairs.

So it's either:

- sets and two pairs don't play like this and we see gin everytime.

- Sets and two pairs do play like this and we have a small profitable call.

In case 1 we are screwed, in case 2 we have a small +EV call. So the ratio has to be highly favoured to case 2 which i don't believe it is so.