Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

Background: I consider myself an average to slightly generous tipper. Always at least 5% MTT, 1$/hand including most blind steals, $2 for cocktails or complicated drinks like iced coffee, julius etc (BTW they have both of these at Borgata now).

So I am playing a 250+20 SNG which is chopped three ways and I get $400 or +$130. First and second tip $75 and $50 respectively and the SNG only lasts 1:20, same dealer whole time. I figure I am only liable to $7 or 5% of winnings since the buy-in was such a large percent. I see the dealer already made $125 for an hours work and I don't have any one dollar bills so I drop a finsky in the box and I am done with it. Dealer says "man you won $400 and your only tipping $5" I explain that I actually won $130 and he did better for the hour than I did without risking $270. Dealer persists (I thought he might have been joking around at first). I was quite pissed but calmly waited for my money and rolled out without furthur argument.

My assertion is that the dealers in SNGs don't even deserve 5% of the price pool for an hours work as they are already getting $16 hour. I am actually considering tipping less next time. Is it just me or is dealer's time not worth $100/hour? Am I a cheap grinder or was this dealer out of line?

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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they are already getting $16 hour

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I've stopped replying to the numerous toking threads, but couldn't resist this one. The dealer was certainly out of line, but you mean that these dealers are making $16 per hour BEFORE tokes? Where was this?

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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they are already getting $16 hour

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I've stopped replying to the numerous toking threads, but couldn't resist this one. The dealer was certainly out of line, but you mean that these dealers are making $16 per hour BEFORE tokes? Where was this?

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Tourny rate is around $14-$16 at Borgata on average, which is subsidized by the rake. I realize there are lot of toke threads that's why I put in the title, I thought this was a fairly uncovered aspect.

I was especially pissed that the dealer mouthed off twice, I would personally be a dealer myself if I made $150+ for an hour and half of work and I certainly would not be bitching that I was underpaid. Where is the limit? If I play a 1000+40 are the players suppose to tip $250+ for two hours of dealing in addition to the $400 in rake? Call me a nit but if I play again and get that line from the dealer, I am taking it to the room manager.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

I wouldn't have to get a direct insult about a tip from a dealer a SECOND time before reporting it.

Also, julius as in Orange Julius? Alcoholic or no?

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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I wouldn't have to get a direct insult about a tip from a dealer a SECOND time before reporting it.

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Dealer is way out of line.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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So I am playing a 250+20 SNG which is chopped three ways and I get $400 or +$130.

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This doesn't make sense. Most ten-player SNGs pay approx. 20% to third place. In addition, a player with the smallest stack who is already guaranteed the lowest prize should always been receiving more than that prize amount, or else there would be no reason to accept the chop. Yet, from this chop, you only received 16% of the prize pool.

Was there an unusual payoff schedule where third place received less than 15%, or did you just agree to a really bad deal?

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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So I am playing a 250+20 SNG which is chopped three ways and I get $400 or +$130.

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This doesn't make sense. Was there an unusual payoff schedule where third place received less than 15%, or did you just agree to a really bad deal?

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Maybe it was a five handed tournament?

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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So I am playing a 250+20 SNG which is chopped three ways and I get $400 or +$130.

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This doesn't make sense. Was there an unusual payoff schedule where third place received less than 15%, or did you just agree to a really bad deal?

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Maybe it was a five handed tournament?

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I guess it could've been shorthanded, although he said it lasted one hour twenty minutes.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

Dealer was out of line,


But there are a couple of things you should keep straight.

1) You shouldn't tip less because of how much the others tipped ubless you will tip more to make up for smaller tips from the other people. Your tip should be based upon what you are comfortable giving, not what the other guys did.

2) One hour and twenty minutes is not one hours worth of work. It is One hour and 1/3 of an hour. Which takes a dealer out of rotation for from an hour and a half to two hours.

3) The Dealer may not get to keep all of the tokes. In many places a portion as high as 1/3rd goes to the floor. I say this just to point out your belief that the dealer was making as much as you might not be accurate.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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but if I play again and get that line from the dealer, I am taking it to the room manager.

[/ QUOTE ] My opinion is you should have talked to the manager on this occasion also.

Peace,
Mygtar

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

Dealer was out of line on this one.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

I agree, the dealer was out of line, but also think that the tipping should not be dependent on what the other people tip, but rather what you feel is appropriate.

Out of curiosity, why is an iced coffee a complex drink?

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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So I am playing a 250+20 SNG which is chopped three ways and I get $400 or +$130.

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This doesn't make sense. Most ten-player SNGs pay approx. 20% to third place. In addition, a player with the smallest stack who is already guaranteed the lowest prize should always been receiving more than that prize amount, or else there would be no reason to accept the chop. Yet, from this chop, you only received 16% of the prize pool.

Was there an unusual payoff schedule where third place received less than 15%, or did you just agree to a really bad deal?

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Online SNGs pay 20% to third place, but most live SNG's in casinos I've been to (AC only) pay nothing to 3rd, usually 80/20 to 1st/2nd. Paying 20% to third would be very unusual in my experience.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

I'm surprised at unprofessionalism from anyone at the Borgata. I'd definitely bring it up to management (I might not name the dealer, depending on how vicious I felt, but at the very least this is an acute training issue). I certainly wouldn't be giving that dealer any more tips to criticize for a long long time.

As an aside, I've only ever played one live S&G, but at Foxwoods they rotate the dealers as in any other game.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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Online SNGs pay 20% to third place, but most live SNG's in casinos I've been to (AC only) pay nothing to 3rd, usually 80/20 to 1st/2nd. Paying 20% to third would be very unusual in my experience.

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Again FWIW, Foxwoods S&Gs pay 3rd -- at least the $80 + 20 does.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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Again FWIW, Foxwoods S&Gs pay 3rd -- at least the $80 + 20 does.

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So do the charity tournaments at Seabrook, NH.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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Dealer says "man you won $400 and your only tipping $5".


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I would have asked for my $5 back.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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Dealer says "man you won $400 and your only tipping $5".


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I would have asked for my $5 back.

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And then given it to the nearest cocktail waitress in front of him out of spite.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

Borgata SNGs pay $1500/$600/$400 at this level, I think they just break it up that way to make the payout easier.

I definitely understand not tipping less because the other players tipped well, I was only planning on giving $7 anyway, I just meant that I didn't feel bad that I was a couple bucks short since the dealer did so well. In the past I have made up part of the tip when one player stiffed.

As for the drinks they have Strawberry Julius non-alcoholic, not sure if they have orange also I'll ask today.

Thanks for replies.

EDIT: Floor gets no toke in AC.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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Borgata SNGs pay $1500/$600/$400 at this level, I think they just break it up that way to make the payout easier.

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and

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So I am playing a 250+20 SNG which is chopped three ways and I get $400 or +$130.

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is what makes no sense.

Why would you chop it 3 ways and end up with just the 3rd prize amount? You could fold every hand (and hope the 2nd place guy goes bust) and have higher EV than your chop. You could push every hand (and hope to get a lucky double up or two) and have higher EV than your chop. You could play real poker and have higher EV than your chop.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

We didn't chop it, I came in 3rd. I guess I shouldn't have used the term chop, I just meant that's how the payout was broken down. Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

All dealers believe that they deserve a share of anyone else's winnings and the bigger the winnings the more they think is rightfully theirs.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)--SnG Tip.
 

REASONABLE CALCULATION

Game takes 1:20 hours so let's round it out to one and half hours. Say a dealer at a ring game could expect to make $10/down so his usual expectation would be about $30.

Prize breakdown for 1st, 2nd and 3rd is $1500, 600 and 400.

Ratio of prize breakdown is to 60%, 25% and 15%. (Actually 60/24/16 but close enough.)

Reasonable tips would be as follows:

1st: .60 x $30 = $18. Say $20.

2nd: .25 x $30 = $7.5 Say $10.

3rd: .15 x $30 = $4.5 Say $5.

Your tip was perfect. Anything more would be generous on your part.


GENEROUS CALCULATION

Lets say we want to tip on the generous side. Figure the dealer is out of his usual ring game status for a full two hours and he would usually make $24/hour in tips rather than $20. ($12/down rather than $10.)

15% of $48 = $7.20

A tip of $7 would be generous.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

from the way it sounds hes getting $16/hr to do his job anyway. Is a tip even necessary at all? I thought the whole point of tipping poker dealers was they only made min wage, at least in LA and vegas.

666...

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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Tourny rate is around $14-$16 at Borgata on average,

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Can anyone confirm this??? I'd be VERY shocked if this was true (although it would go a long way to explain why Borg dealers are so much better than anyone else)

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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Tourny rate is around $14-$16 at Borgata on average,

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Can anyone confirm this??? I'd be VERY shocked if this was true (although it would go a long way to explain why Borg dealers are so much better than anyone else)

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Hopefully someone else will confirm, but my friend who is a veteran dealer gets $16 tourny rate. I believe the average is only slightly less than that as dealer pay doesn't vary much with experience. This is tourny rate only of course, they make far less when dealing cash games (but more overall when tokes are factored).

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

I heard the avg dealer in vegas makes 64K a year. That's incredible...

You know what that means? That we're all tipping too much, it's not like LV's cost of living is ridiculously high (outside the strip of course).

Can anybody confirm? 64K is more than I make, and I'm in a technical profession.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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So I am playing a 250+20 SNG which is chopped three ways and I get $400 or +$130.

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This doesn't make sense. Most ten-player SNGs pay approx. 20% to third place. In addition, a player with the smallest stack who is already guaranteed the lowest prize should always been receiving more than that prize amount, or else there would be no reason to accept the chop. Yet, from this chop, you only received 16% of the prize pool.

Was there an unusual payoff schedule where third place received less than 15%, or did you just agree to a really bad deal?

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Not in AC. 250+20 in Borgata pays something like 2k for first and $500 for second. They most likely choped it 3 way by chip count (or something close to it).

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

I don't make 64K a year and while some dealers may make this I feel certain that average is well below this number.

but I make enough to be comfortable. not getting rich, but getting by.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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I heard the avg dealer in vegas makes 64K a year. That's incredible...

You know what that means? That we're all tipping too much, it's not like LV's cost of living is ridiculously high (outside the strip of course).

Can anybody confirm? 64K is more than I make, and I'm in a technical profession.

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You must not be a really good tech or you need a need job.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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Hopefully someone else will confirm, but my friend who is a veteran dealer gets $16 tourny rate.

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Is this the base pay (i.e. what Borgata itself pays them) for dealing any type of tournament, or is this rather what the average down rate is going at for getting downs during the daily tournaments?

For example, I've heard that Caesars LV pays dealers a special rate for doing "special tournaments" and the such, such as freerolls, Camp Hellmuth, stuff like that, while everything else in the room (the daily tournies, the SNGs, Circuit Events, and of course live action) is paid at min/close-to-min wage + tips.

So are you saying Borgata's paying $16/hr for any and all tourney dealing? Because that sounds... weird.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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So are you saying Borgata's paying $16/hr for any and all tourney dealing? Because that sounds... weird.

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That is my understanding, his base rate is (I think) around $7 and his tourny rate (I know) is $16/hr. If he gets a tourny string (which includes SNGs, MTTs and dead SNG tables) he makes $16/hr. I wish there was someone to confirm, I personally don't like asking people how much they make but I've heard him talk about his tourny rate before.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

dealer should have said 'thank you', and saved his bitching for when he got home..

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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I heard the avg dealer in vegas makes 64K a year. That's incredible...

You know what that means? That we're all tipping too much, it's not like LV's cost of living is ridiculously high (outside the strip of course).

Can anybody confirm? 64K is more than I make, and I'm in a technical profession.

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You must not be a really good tech or you need a need job.

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How so? First year first year analysts for many financial jobs, consulting jobs, engineering jobs, are all 56K base + bonus.

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

In AC, we cut the pot for the dealers' tipout first (particularly if there is a chop). This way, no player can over tip the dealer to coerce other players to do likewise. Plus in AC dealers rotate tables (even SNGs) about every 45 minutes so invariably there is a tip pool for the event.
In AC ususally the event manager asks for a dealer tipout and he/she puts in in for polled tips.

A) The Dealer had no business asking/demanding anything
B) I'd be more concerned that two players just cut their profit by roughly %50 and 30% respectively due to this Dealer's conduct

Re: Greedy dealer or cheap grinder? (toke involved)
 

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I heard the avg dealer in vegas makes 64K a year. That's incredible...

You know what that means? That we're all tipping too much, it's not like LV's cost of living is ridiculously high (outside the strip of course).

Can anybody confirm? 64K is more than I make, and I'm in a technical profession.

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You don't want to know what the better looking cocktail waitresses make.