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-   -   Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling. (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=186363)

lowpockets 08-14-2006 09:27 AM

Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
This weekend I played a little 2/5 at Caesars in AC at the insistence of some of my buds I was with. I was not impressed with the room from the get-go. They only had one table of 2/5 and I was definitely wanting to play a bigger game.

The following hand came up. Effective stacks about $650-700. I limped utg with AcAs and with a couple callers the button raised to 25. I of course bumped it to $80 and all fold to the button who calls.

Flop comes all low hearts. I lead for $125. Button calls. Turn comes 7s and I lead for $150. This is where the confusion started. The button has about $450 behind him and starts counting out chips in a bunch of weird ways looking like he is going to raise. He is solid though, and I don't put him on AKh because he would have no need to reraise me here. I figure set and depending on what he does I might get away from my hand. After about a minute he clearly announces "Raise" and puts out $300ish. The action is back on me and and I start to think about wtf this turn min-raise is.

This is where the situation gets f-ed up. About 5-10 seconds after I start to think about the hand the villian says, "HEY WHERE THE FU-CK ARE MY CARDS!?!?" He was in the 1 seat and the dealer (who was extremely pushy and made other mistakes in this rotation) mucked his cards. The villian then gets pissed off very very badly. He reaches out and takes his $300 raise back and then starts racking up his chips. Meanwhile the entire table is yelling "FLOOR!" as we wait for the floor to get there. The final ruling here was that since he didn't have cards he was permitted to take his raise back.

I was very polite and professional when explaining to the floor what happened and explaining to him that his dealer's mistake just cost me an extra $400 from villian. The floor is very confused and doesn't have a clue what he should do. The whole incident took about 10 minutes to get resolved. During that time the enraged villian starts talking about his KxKh hand like its the nuts and convinces the dealer to burn and turn the river - "JUST TO SEE!" The dealer, who we have established to be a moron, obliges and no heart comes. Its doubtfull that after having so much of his stack in the pot that he wouldn't have put his remaining $150 into the pot on the river.

Did the floor make the correct ruling? Also, should the floor have done anything for me for costing me an extra $400 based on a dealer error?

I informed the floor that this move reflected poorly on their card room and told him for the delay he cost the table that I thought it was appropriate that they at least not take time from the entire table the next round. He disagreed and didn't do anything about it - even though he fully admitted it was the dealers faul.

psandman 08-14-2006 09:48 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
Its a typical ruling to allow a player to take back a raise that has not been acted on when it is discovered that his cards have been accidently mucked.

I do take exception to you referring to this as a dealer error. While the dealer did make a mistake, when a player (especially in the 1 or 10 seat) does not protect their cards and they are mucked it is not a "dealer error" it as a Dealer/Player Error.

AngusThermopyle 08-14-2006 10:47 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]


I do take exception to you referring to this as a dealer error. While the dealer did make a mistake, when a player (especially in the 1 or 10 seat) does not protect their cards and they are mucked it is not a "dealer error" it as a Dealer/Player Error.

[/ QUOTE ]

What part of "There is a big pot going on. Seat 1 just announced raise and put in chips. Even if Seat 1's hand is not 'protected', he is not folding." didn't the dealer understand? We both know he either had "issues" with Seat 1 or was totally oblivious to the action that it is his job to follow and control.

You act like it is 50-50. Dealer here is at least 90% responsible.

lowpockets 08-14-2006 11:14 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
I agree Angus - since he is seat 1 and so close to the dealer and I mentioned he was counting his chips - the dealer should have been paying attention. Also, it is clear that the action on this hand was TWO WAY to the flop. That means that the dealer mucked these cards after the turn, two streets later when betting had clearly been taking place between me and the villian I was with.

Also, sandman, I agree that the other player should have gotten his money back. I was full well intending to give his $300 back that he was putting in on the turn. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that if it wouldn't have been for the over-eager dealer I would be $400 richer.

Do you guys think the floor should have at least covered the time for my table the next round? I didn't really give a [censored] about a free meal or a free time for me, but this held up the table for so long and reflected really poorly on the dealer and the card room. Regardless of whether a player is solely responsible for protecting their own cards - the house probably should have given a comp to someone here.

Bremen 08-14-2006 11:50 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
Just get up, announce to the table you're going to X casino where they don't screw things up this badly and ask if anyone else wants to come with you.

Rick Nebiolo 08-14-2006 12:03 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I do take exception to you referring to this as a dealer error. While the dealer did make a mistake, when a player (especially in the 1 or 10 seat) does not protect their cards and they are mucked it is not a "dealer error" it as a Dealer/Player Error.

[/ QUOTE ]

What part of "There is a big pot going on. Seat 1 just announced raise and put in chips. Even if Seat 1's hand is not 'protected', he is not folding." didn't the dealer understand? We both know he either had "issues" with Seat 1 or was totally oblivious to the action that it is his job to follow and control.

[ QUOTE ]
You act like it is 50-50. Dealer here is at least 90% responsible.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Dealer is at least 90% responsible but if you play in the seats next to the dealer (especially the one seat) and don't make an extra effort to protect your cards with a card protector or chip expect this to happen quite often in your poker career. Just ask my gf [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

~ Rick

LasVegasMichael 08-14-2006 12:34 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
If the player does not protect his cards in the 1/10 seat with a card protector or chip, it is his own fault that his cards were mucked, but the dealer could have been a little more careful under the HU circumstance.

As it was, in my opinion, player error moreso then dealers, I think that the committed chips should remain. However, I understand the floors standpoint, as a customer service issue, it is better that both players get some money, you the pot, and the villian the raise bet. Though I do not agree as a player, I understand why the floor would make that decision.

sekrah 08-14-2006 12:35 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
This weekend I played a little 2/5 at Caesars in AC


[/ QUOTE ]

First mistake.

[ QUOTE ]

During that time the enraged villian starts talking about his KxKh hand like its the nuts

[/ QUOTE ]

Second mistake. I would of said, "You had K-K with a heart?" "Okay, I believe you, Dealer, Turn the river".

Flip up your aces. Pwned. Take his $300 and go back to your room with some railbird clevage.

lowpockets 08-14-2006 01:03 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
Bremen - I did. The villian and I got along just fine and I got along well with the rest of the table. After this hand, I got up and told the table that I was going to the Borgata. I did and had a great night at 5/10nl, so it was all gravy in the end. I also know that a different floor would have made a different move. Personally, if this happened to me, I don't think I would have done the same thing as the villian. I know better. Hopefully if I ever get [censored] like this, someone else will be so kind to me. It just sucks knowin I would have had an extra $400.

Sekrah - that doesn't sound too bad...

Anyone else think the dealer is doubly retarded for dealing the river card even after the floor was there and the hand was clearly dead.

I will reiterate that this was probably the worst live poker experience I ever had.

RR 08-14-2006 02:11 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Also, it is clear that the action on this hand was TWO WAY to the flop. That means that the dealer mucked these cards after the turn, two streets later when betting had clearly been taking place between me and the villian I was with.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not clear at all that this is when the player lost his cards. They were unprotected so they might have been mucked preflop. Just because he noticed on the turn that he had no cards does not mean he lost his cards on the turn. He might have left them out and had another hand thrown into them at some point leaving the dealer completly blameless.

sekrah 08-14-2006 02:31 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Anyone else think the dealer is doubly retarded for dealing the river card even after the floor was there and the hand was clearly dead.


[/ QUOTE ]


Too bad a heart didn't peel off. You would of seen the pepper spray and 4-man floor tackle make a cameo.

lowpockets 08-14-2006 08:47 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, it is clear that the action on this hand was TWO WAY to the flop. That means that the dealer mucked these cards after the turn, two streets later when betting had clearly been taking place between me and the villian I was with.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not clear at all that this is when the player lost his cards. They were unprotected so they might have been mucked preflop. Just because he noticed on the turn that he had no cards does not mean he lost his cards on the turn. He might have left them out and had another hand thrown into them at some point leaving the dealer completly blameless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Na, I know he didn't lose them until then. I remember he set them to his right before he played with all of his chips. I am about 95% sure he had them after the turn card was dealt. This also wasn't the dealers first or second mistake of the round (it was his last hand of the round).

psandman 08-14-2006 10:08 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
However, that doesn't take away from the fact that if it wouldn't have been for the over-eager dealer I would be $400 richer.

Do you guys think the floor should have at least covered the time for my table the next round? I didn't really give a [censored] about a free meal or a free time for me, but this held up the table for so long and reflected really poorly on the dealer and the card room. Regardless of whether a player is solely responsible for protecting their own cards - the house probably should have given a comp to someone here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually You know say you would have made $400. But in your original post you say that you put this player on a set and you were prepared to to let it go. I know you hadn't made up your mind yet, but since you were at least consdiring the fold, maybe you should considre that this error may have actually made you money.

steamraise 08-15-2006 12:22 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I remember he set them to his right before he played with all of his chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the one seat he sets his cards to his right?

That's where the muck is.

Dealer probabally thought a couple of cards
had slid out of the muck, and slid them back.

steamraise 08-15-2006 12:38 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I figure set and depending on what he does I might get away from my hand.

costing me an extra $400 based on a dealer error?

[/ QUOTE ]

You go from "thinking of folding"
to "dealer error cost me $400" ?

It was player error for not protecting his cards.
Maybe even mucking them himself.

[ QUOTE ]
I remember he set them to his right
before he played with all of his chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the bet should stand.
If you folded he would have taken the pot with no hand.

PROTECT YOUR HAND.

DDH 08-15-2006 01:16 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I remember he set them to his right before he played with all of his chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the one seat he sets his cards to his right?

That's where the muck is.

Dealer probabally thought a couple of cards
had slid out of the muck, and slid them back.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm remembering my seating coreectly, that's setting them right next to the dealer. I've seen the 1/10 seat do this when they are mucking their cards. They just move them to side next to the dealer to indicate they fold. If he did this, and moved the cards next to the dealer, the fault lays entirely on the player, IMO. The dealer could easily have precieved him as mucking his hand.

psandman 08-15-2006 02:30 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I remember he set them to his right before he played with all of his chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the one seat he sets his cards to his right?

That's where the muck is.

Dealer probabally thought a couple of cards
had slid out of the muck, and slid them back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be silly they tell me this was 90% the dealers fault, the player probably had them protected under a small brick and the dealer snuck them out from under it.

youtalkfunny 08-15-2006 04:51 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Don't be silly they tell me this was 90% the dealers fault, the player probably had them protected under a small brick and the dealer snuck them out from under it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nice.

Note to the OP: No, the house doesn't owe you anything. First of all, we've determined that you can't blame the dealer for mucking a hand that the One-Seat slid to his right, unprotected.

Second, even if the dealer was 100% at fault, the house owes you nothing, because those sort of mistakes even out in the long run. Some day, you'll benefit from a dealer mistake, by exactly $400 (theoretically).

octop 08-15-2006 04:59 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
They atleast shouldnt have charged time for the next round
They wasted a lot of it for the players.

lowpockets 08-15-2006 07:58 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
Youtalkfunny - you are probably right. I know that theoretically it works this way.

However, for those of you discussing strategy - remember that the flop came 8 high and with my pre-flop reraise I am sure that I could have talked myself into the fact that he had an overpair. I didn't think set until he did the minraise thingy on the turn when the hand went dead. Also, I would have only had to put like 300 more into a pot that was well over a grand at that point. I think I would have easily decided that I was ahead 30% of the time here based on the pre-flop action and this players tight image.

Octop - that was kind of my point to the floor. Not that they owed ME anything, but that the table should get some free time because it took a while to resolve the issue (10 minutes). If you guys have played live before you should know the floor gives time for lesser things.

AKQJ10 08-15-2006 09:38 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you guys have played live before you should know the floor gives time for lesser things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play live in a time-charged game, though admittedly I haven't been playing it that long (a year, maybe one day a month or so). I've never seen the floor allow anything to get in the way of the time collection.

I agree that they should make some concession to recognize that they wasted people's time, but I can't imagine it would ever interfere with the collection.

The other day at FW I had a really bad dealer who in addition to dealing slowly, would stop the game every time a certain couple of players started jawing at each other. She also happened to have a fill in one of her downs, so there may have been four hands that got out that half-hour. I can't in my wildest dreams imagine any sort of break on the time collection. Maybe some comp points or something, but not the time collection.

Again, I'm not as experienced in time-charged games as some, so maybe this happens and I've never seen it. No doubt playing time-charged games in competitive poker markets would be different, too.

Fortunately when I do the accounting at the end of the day, $5/hh to sit in the $1-2 game is a drop in the bucket....

punkass 08-15-2006 09:56 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
Villian raises. Hero thinks about mucking. Villian realizes his hand is gone due to being an idiot and the dealer doing his job. Hero wins a pot that he probably would have folded. Villian goes ballistic. Hero goes ballistic.

I think the only ones who did a good job here is the dealer and the floor (except for taking 10 minutes for a decision).

RR 08-15-2006 11:15 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
They atleast shouldnt have charged time for the next round
They wasted a lot of it for the players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not seeing that they wasted much time. If a player asked for the supervisor or whatever you don't get to miss the time for that. You don't get a reduction in the drop for having a floor call.

lowpockets 08-15-2006 03:45 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
I have had time credits at Foxwoods for simply being at a table of regulars in the middle of the night and having a dealer expose a card during the hand.

Also, I was pretty clear that I didn't go ballistic.

And if you aren't seeing them wasting much time then you missed the hole taking 10 minutes to calm the villian down and make their ruling.

I am pretty sure I posted this already though...

AKQJ10 08-15-2006 04:31 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I have had time credits at Foxwoods for simply being at a table of regulars in the middle of the night and having a dealer expose a card during the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's good to know. What game? And how do you go about asking for this?

Truly, the other day was the first time I felt like I should have been entitled to a rebate on time, but in the end I just changed tables to get out of this woman's rotation and away from the people who were stopping the game. I would imagine they're going to be less generous in this sort of thing for a $1-2 player, but I could be wrong.

youtalkfunny 08-16-2006 06:25 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
And if you aren't seeing them wasting much time then you missed the hole taking 10 minutes to calm the villian down and make their ruling.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it takes ten minutes to clean up a mess, don't blame the cleaning crew. Blame the guy who made the mess! In the case, Mr One Seat.

betgo 08-16-2006 07:39 AM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
First of all, I wouldn't be that upset about winning the hand there. If villain had KhKx, he had 11 outs, so you might have lost a huge pot.

Villain is at fault for not protecting his hand. Villain is probably inexperienced. Dealer is also at fault for mucking hand in the middle of a huge hand. This is a pretty big error. Sometimes, when other players have folded to a big raise, dealer thinks player still in hand has folded too. Seems like floor made right decision.

Caesers AC has a relatively new poker room. I was there once to play in their tournament. Their tournament had the ante as half the SB and the blinds usually doubling every level. It was common to have 3 players allin preflop. Obviously, they wanted people out of it quickly and back to raked poker or other casino games.

I played some of the 1/2NL, which was very soft even for 1/2NL. They probably only have 2/5NL on peak times on weekends. The 2/5NL game may also be soft. However, if you want to play 2/5NL or above, it is better to go to Borgata or Tropicana, where things are probably more professionally run, and they generally have multiple 2/5 and higher tables.

lowpockets 08-16-2006 12:34 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, I wouldn't be that upset about winning the hand there. If villain had KhKx, he had 11 outs, so you might have lost a huge pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you realize how wrong you are here?

betgo 08-16-2006 01:30 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, I wouldn't be that upset about winning the hand there. If villain had KhKx, he had 11 outs, so you might have lost a huge pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you realize how wrong you are here?

[/ QUOTE ]


If you pick up the pot now, you win 467. 205 of that was yours, so you gain 262.

If you each put another 450 in, there will be 1367 total. Villain has 11 outs of 44 cards left, so you are exactly a 3-1 favorite. 3/4 of 1367 is 1025, which is your expected win. You put 655 in the pot, so your expected gain is 370.

So your gain is 262 if villain folds or his cards or mucked and your expected gain is 370 if both players go allin. So you do better on average going allin, but the difference is not as much as you might think.

Villain is getting 2-1 on his money, but is a 3-1 dog, so getting the money in is advantageous, but not hugely so.

I am not saying that getting him to fold is preferable, just that it is not that bad a result.

punkass 08-16-2006 01:34 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, I wouldn't be that upset about winning the hand there. If villain had KhKx, he had 11 outs, so you might have lost a huge pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you realize how wrong you are here?

[/ QUOTE ]


If you pick up the pot now, you win 467. 205 of that was yours, so you gain 262.

If you each put another 450 in, there will be 1367 total. Villain has 11 outs of 44 cards left, so you are exactly a 3-1 favorite. 3/4 of 1367 is 1025, which is your expected win. You put 655 in the pot, so your expected gain is 370.

So your gain is 262 if villain folds or his cards or mucked and your expected gain is 370 if both players go allin. So you do better on average going allin, but the difference is not as much as you might think.

Villain is getting 2-1 on his money, but is a 3-1 dog, so getting the money in is advantageous, but not hugely so.

I am not saying that getting him to fold is preferable, just that it is not that bad a result.

[/ QUOTE ]

A difference ot 108 EV dollars (41% more) is huge. I hope you realize how wrong you are in this aspect of the situation.

I repeat that dealer was doing his job, hero is being a douche, seat 1 learned a valuable lesson on protecting his hand while being a uber-douche.

betgo 08-16-2006 01:49 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, I wouldn't be that upset about winning the hand there. If villain had KhKx, he had 11 outs, so you might have lost a huge pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you realize how wrong you are here?

[/ QUOTE ]


If you pick up the pot now, you win 467. 205 of that was yours, so you gain 262.

If you each put another 450 in, there will be 1367 total. Villain has 11 outs of 44 cards left, so you are exactly a 3-1 favorite. 3/4 of 1367 is 1025, which is your expected win. You put 655 in the pot, so your expected gain is 370.

So your gain is 262 if villain folds or his cards or mucked and your expected gain is 370 if both players go allin. So you do better on average going allin, but the difference is not as much as you might think.

Villain is getting 2-1 on his money, but is a 3-1 dog, so getting the money in is advantageous, but not hugely so.

I am not saying that getting him to fold is preferable, just that it is not that bad a result.

[/ QUOTE ]

A difference ot 108 EV dollars (41% more) is huge. I hope you realize how wrong you are in this aspect of the situation.

I repeat that dealer was doing his job, hero is being a douche, seat 1 learned a valuable lesson on protecting his hand while being a uber-douche.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was just saying that the gain from getting allin is not as great as it seems. Of course you would prefer to get allin.

Dealer was not doing his job. Dealer screwed up big by mucking the hand of one of two people in a big pot. There was really no reason dealer should do this. Seat 1 also screwed up big in leaving his cards unprotected while in a huge pot.

RR 08-16-2006 02:00 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Dealer was not doing his job. Dealer screwed up big by mucking the hand of one of two people in a big pot. There was really no reason dealer should do this. Seat 1 also screwed up big in leaving his cards unprotected while in a huge pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the description of where the cards wree left there is a decent chance the dealer did nothing wrong. The muck is a large mass of cards (note if your dealer squares up the muck etc tyhey are making a mistake). It is not uncommon for a couple of cards to come free from the muck if the dealer bumps it dealing cards or whatever. When a dealer see somes cards lying there next to the muck his job is to bury them in the muck, not look around to see where they came from etc. The players that think he should look for where the cards came from are likley the same ones that will complain if the dealer doesn't deal fast enough. If you want the games to move you have to accept that dealers learn to do the same things over and over. one of the things they learn is to get cards in the muck if they are laying in the open on the table.

betgo 08-16-2006 02:31 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dealer was not doing his job. Dealer screwed up big by mucking the hand of one of two people in a big pot. There was really no reason dealer should do this. Seat 1 also screwed up big in leaving his cards unprotected while in a huge pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the description of where the cards wree left there is a decent chance the dealer did nothing wrong. The muck is a large mass of cards (note if your dealer squares up the muck etc tyhey are making a mistake). It is not uncommon for a couple of cards to come free from the muck if the dealer bumps it dealing cards or whatever. When a dealer see somes cards lying there next to the muck his job is to bury them in the muck, not look around to see where they came from etc. The players that think he should look for where the cards came from are likley the same ones that will complain if the dealer doesn't deal fast enough. If you want the games to move you have to accept that dealers learn to do the same things over and over. one of the things they learn is to get cards in the muck if they are laying in the open on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]
If seat 1 left his cards next to the muck, he is an idiot, and the problem is completely his fault. If the cards were close in front of seat 1 and the dealer swept them away when it was obvious seat 1 was involved in a major 2-way pot, then the dealer made a major error, although seat 1 is still responisible for protecting his cards.

RR 08-16-2006 02:49 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dealer was not doing his job. Dealer screwed up big by mucking the hand of one of two people in a big pot. There was really no reason dealer should do this. Seat 1 also screwed up big in leaving his cards unprotected while in a huge pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the description of where the cards wree left there is a decent chance the dealer did nothing wrong. The muck is a large mass of cards (note if your dealer squares up the muck etc tyhey are making a mistake). It is not uncommon for a couple of cards to come free from the muck if the dealer bumps it dealing cards or whatever. When a dealer see somes cards lying there next to the muck his job is to bury them in the muck, not look around to see where they came from etc. The players that think he should look for where the cards came from are likley the same ones that will complain if the dealer doesn't deal fast enough. If you want the games to move you have to accept that dealers learn to do the same things over and over. one of the things they learn is to get cards in the muck if they are laying in the open on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]
If seat 1 left his cards next to the muck, he is an idiot, and the problem is completely his fault. If the cards were close in front of seat 1 and the dealer swept them away when it was obvious seat 1 was involved in a major 2-way pot, then the dealer made a major error, although seat 1 is still responisible for protecting his cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is corect. I thought I read somewhere in this thread that the player put his cards to his right. He very well could have put them next to the muck.

tourney guy 08-16-2006 03:04 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
I don't agree. In a heads up pot, the dealer has to pay more than careful attention to the players' hands.

Heads up, 1 and 10 seats should never have hands mucked.

lowpockets 08-16-2006 06:05 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
hero is being a douche,

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, not sure where you came to that conclusion. I offered to give the guy in 1 seat his money back - which the floor confirmed would happen anyway.

I also thought I made it pretty clear that the player in the 1 seat didn't throw his cards away. He had them close enough in from of him that the dealer shouldn't have grabbed them (the dealer is the only one at the table that was clueless about this action). Of course a player has an obligation to protect their cards. But I think the point I have been trying to make is that the dealer made mistakes before this in his rotation and was being pushy.

The Borgata >>>>>>>>>> Caesers.

Also - to the guy asking about the Foxwoods comp: The regular at the table knew the floor pretty well and we were already short handed paying half-time. The dealer was a newbie in the middle of the night and made some goofy mistake and the regular guy talked the floor into the comp. I think this is the difference between a larger room that didn't need 3 bucks from 5 guys and a small room that needed 6 bucks from 10 guys.

betgo 08-16-2006 07:17 PM

Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. In a heads up pot, the dealer has to pay more than careful attention to the players' hands.

Heads up, 1 and 10 seats should never have hands mucked.

[/ QUOTE ]
It looks like a pretty bad mistake by the dealer. Also, as has been implied, this is kind of a new poker room, and the casino doesn't emphasize poker. It is a good place for soft low limit games. I think something like that would be less likely to happen at one of the big three poker rooms in AC.


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