Hero is a luckbox...
 

I don't want to limp it because the players behind me are too tight and I'm not sure I'll get the action I want. But I don't want to fold such a nice hand against tight players, so I'll raise it! Too bad I ran into someone else who likes his hand.

So if we don't argue about preflop play, how's the flop check/3-bet?

And now that I've luckboxed the turn, how do I play it?

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero...

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

bet/3-bet.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

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bet/3-bet.

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Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

preflop I think is fine I think limping is no good at tighter tables as half the time no one else comes along.

flop the check/3 bet is good you have a whole lot of outs here.

the turn I probably just bet out and go from there.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

bet not close. MP1 can easily have AK [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and just let it go through. Also the 4 straight on board will make him check plenty of other hands that he might have liked on the flop.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

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bet/3-bet.

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Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

this is funny because your hand is perfectly disguised now

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

Don't stop accelerating until you crash.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

Fold preflop? JTs is a terrible hand to play OOP, especially against tight agressive players.

Having said that, the flop play is perfect. You have overcards and two strong draws.

On the turn you hit the best possible draw, but you are still vulnerable. Given the action you could easily be against a set or two-pair, which could improve to a full house on the river. AK [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is also a small possibility, so your flush redraw won't always be good if another diamond comes. Therefore, you'll need to protect your hand and charge the maximum from anyone drawing here. Bet/3-bet.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

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bet/3-bet.

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Lots of luck getting raised; but yeah you have to bet it.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

I love it... who's going to expect you to have JT here? I bet out. With MP1 and SB's aggression, you're likely to be raised at least once.

Preflop, I also raise JTs on tight tables. I limp on loose ones.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

grunch
Obviously I'd like to try a c/r to pump the pot, but normally I just bet b/c some players loves to call in all sort of spots, flush draws aint going nowhere and MP could very likely be holding a set and have like 13 outs to boat up. Ok, I convinced myself, just bet.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

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Fold preflop? JTs is a terrible hand to play OOP, especially against tight agressive players.

Having said that, the flop play is perfect. You have overcards and two strong draws.

On the turn you hit the best possible draw, but you are still vulnerable. Given the action you could easily be against a set or two-pair, which could improve to a full house on the river. AK [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is also a small possibility, so your flush redraw won't always be good if another diamond comes. Therefore, you'll need to protect your hand and charge the maximum from anyone drawing here. Bet/3-bet.

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You can't protect your hand here per se against either a set nor a better flush draw, as these both have enough outs to call two profitably. Betting is for value, and bet-3-bet is the best choice here.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

I think your PF raise is good here and the way the hand plays out probably makes it even better.

On the flop I definitely like the raise you've got 15 outs here and 2 cards to come...you've disguised your hand really well here and PF I think.

Definitely bet and reraise the turn. You've already got the nuts and still have 9 outs to a flush and I doubt they're putting you on JT here.

TPK

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

I would bet it. If 4 str8 were not on the board I would go for a c/r.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

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You can't protect your hand here per se against either a set nor a better flush draw, as these both have enough outs to call two profitably. Betting is for value, and bet-3-bet is the best choice here.



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Two-pair can't call 2 profitably. Against everything else it's a value bet.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

I probably just bet it out and hope for a raise. I think there is some risk of a check around if you check but if you bet, maybe you get a chance to reraise.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

I like the flop play. You definitely want to jam that baby and donking out in front of a likely c-bet is a good way to chase out SB.

Turn: I go ahead and bet out here without a read on MP1. MP1 likes his hand a lot which is probably an overpair, but that board has to make him a little nervous at least and would hate to see a monster like this get checked through.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

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Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero...

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Hero bets, MP1 calls, SB folds. The turn is an inconsequential 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and it goes bet-call. Hero cracks villain's black aces.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

Grunch

Everything looks good. Bet and raise that turn, that should be a gimme.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

do you remember what you were thinking when you made your preflop raise?

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

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do you remember what you were thinking when you made your preflop raise?

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I think Aaron says it in the first senentence of his post, "I don't want to limp it because the players behind me are too tight and I'm not sure I'll get the action I want. But I don't want to fold such a nice hand against tight players, so I'll raise it!"

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

That is a lot of players to think play too tight. There has to be something else to this scenario that caused Aaron to act. I mean this is almost a game theory raise isn't it? Mix you your play preflop against predictable opponents but that only works if you suspect they are on the ball. I kind of want to get into this a bit more.. it follows the line of Phil Hellmuth's theory of raising low pairs oop.

Let's look at this play vs result. clearly a hand that is playable preflop from early middle position in a tight field.

Clearly a beautiful flop and turn. Considering the hand the MP1 had and the SB had preflop, would Hero jumping to life on the turn have shut down the betting afterwards?

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

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That is a lot of players to think play too tight. There has to be something else to this scenario that caused Aaron to act. I mean this is almost a game theory raise isn't it? Mix you your play preflop against predictable opponents but that only works if you suspect they are on the ball. I kind of want to get into this a bit more.. it follows the line of Phil Hellmuth's theory of raising low pairs oop.

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This article talks about preflop play against tight players. It's right to be more aggressive against tight players.

I like this play with JTs more than low pairs like 33 because JTs flops more favorable flops than 33. In other words, if I happen to get called by a better hand, there are more ways to recover postflop with JTs than with 33.

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Clearly a beautiful flop and turn. Considering the hand the MP1 had and the SB had preflop, would Hero jumping to life on the turn have shut down the betting afterwards?

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This is similar to the situation with the turn donk AQo hand. You look at the situation and decide the liklihood of villain maintaining the aggression. There's a 4-straight on the board AND it connects to a broadway card. If it were 4567, then there is less fear and villain is more likely to keep betting. But with 9876, villain may freeze up, and I'll lose value.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

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That is a lot of players to think play too tight. There has to be something else to this scenario that caused Aaron to act. I mean this is almost a game theory raise isn't it? Mix you your play preflop against predictable opponents but that only works if you suspect they are on the ball. I kind of want to get into this a bit more.. it follows the line of Phil Hellmuth's theory of raising low pairs oop.

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Maybe you'd elaborate on that? I don't think this is a Shania raise.

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Let's look at this play vs result.

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No, let's not. A play is a good play in the situation you make it regardless whether the result is good. Raising AA preflop is not a bad play because someone coldcalls and then makes a set on the flop or sucks out at the river.



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clearly a hand that is playable preflop from early middle position in a tight field.

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Why is that clear? I think you could argue that it is a hand that would be a lot better to play against a loose field.

The idea that you could/should raise it if you fear not getting value because you won't have enough limpers might have merit but that doesn't make it a good hand to play against a tight field. Arguably, you should just fold it. I'm a lot weaker player than Aaron. At a very tight table, I'd be inclined to throw this hand away.

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Clearly a beautiful flop and turn. Considering the hand the MP1 had and the SB had preflop, would Hero jumping to life on the turn have shut down the betting afterwards?

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You cannot think like that. You can bet. If they all fold, that's okay. You win the pot. Likely no one was betting anyway! Your bet is likely to be interpreted as pumping your flush draw or donking whatever else you liked on the flop. Your raise there didn't put MP1 off.

As it turns out, you could possibly have made more by checking and allowing MP1 to bet. But that's looking back from results to play. How often will MP1 have AA here? How often will he have big suited diamonds and not bet?

And just maybe he would have folded AA to a checkraise and you'd have made less by playing it that way (and no more had you checkcalled and then bet out on the river).

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

omg, go to the felt

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

grunch-

what's the read on SB? he's raising a board like that with all the action pf? could he be trapping with a draw of some kind?

the aggression is to your left. how aggressive is MP1? if you're sure MP1 will bet on a coordinated board like this w/ high pp or AK, c/r again.

the pot is also big now and the board is coordinated so maybe a turn bet is best. i'm thinking MP1 may slowdown here a bit.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

I'm sorry, what's the question here? What do I do with the best possible hand at the moment? You put the gas clear through the floor board and don't let up til you find the felt.

Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

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I'm sorry, what's the question here?

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Re: Hero is a luckbox...
 

Besides preflop, I find this entire hand straight forward. It's funny how many replies it got.