A3s, okay play?
 

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

River: (7.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB.


Was my play alright?

Just sat down.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

Im not thinkig your draws are strong enough for a free card play. You have a backdoor fd and have to spike a 4. But it worked , good job.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

That's what I was thinking too, which is why I posted it. I have 4 outs for the near nut straight, 1.5 for the BDFD, and maybe 1.5 for the ace out? I think it's likely he has an overpair here.

Would you say that 7 outs in this rather large pot is enough for a free-card play or not?

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

I don't think A3s is that good of a hand. I usually just limp in with them (their main strength is flopping a flush draw, with limited strength pairing the aces due to the bad kicker).

I fold the flop. BB 3-bet the pre-flop and comes out of the gate betting (without reads this screams "a hand"). You only beat a bluff on the flop and risk getting 3 bet into with the raise.

Edit: Didn't see the straight draw. I'd just call with this though.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

You have an over card, and a gutshot on the flop pickup the nut flush draw on the turn. I'd bet the turn, you have 3 outs for the A, 3 for the 4's and 9 for the flush. I might discount the A in case you're up against AQ sience it was 3-bet preflop but with him just calling on the flop. If he re-raises us on the turn, call since there'd be 10.75BB in the pot and your at least 2.83:1 to improve. Fold the river if bet to you since you can only beat a bluff, unless you have a read that he'd fold to a river bet but I don't think he would at this level.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

I agree. I usually muck these hands, but my VPIP of 15.5 is too low IMO, and I'm trying to open up my game. Is this simply too marginal?

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

Yeah with the gutshot, BDFD, and an A (which isn't much of an out, probably just gonna cost you money) I don't fold on the flop. That being said, I like the raise, trying to get CO out of the hand, which could possibly buy you some additional outs with the ace. And yeah, after they both call I'm in c/f mode if UI.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

The preflop raise is good. Standard actually.

I don't like the flop raise. I just call and hope to see CO come along. If one of your draws come through then you can pop villian on a later street. I don't think the raise is a bad mistake though, and I would likely make it if CO was not in the hand.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think A3s is that good of a hand. I usually just limp in with them (their main strength is flopping a flush draw, with limited strength pairing the aces due to the bad kicker).

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No. This is a standard open raise from the hijack. You should NEVER open limp this from the hijack! A3 is a pretty good shorthanded hand.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

Thanks Greg. Should I be making this same raise with unsuited higher aces, like A6/A9?

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. I usually muck these hands, but my VPIP of 15.5 is too low IMO, and I'm trying to open up my game. Is this simply too marginal?

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding is certainly better than just calling here, that is for sure. But seriously dude, this is a standard raise here preflop.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

I was thinking the ace at best is 1 out, with the flush and straight at 13, that's 14 outs or 1:3.3 or so to improve. I don't see the turn bet as being for value in this case, and I don't think CO is going to fold (CC 2 bets on the flop) so I was just curious as to what is the reasoning to bet in this spot? (not saying it's wrong...I'm new at this, just didn't understand)

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Greg. Should I be making this same raise with unsuited higher aces, like A6/A9?

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably. It depends on the situation.

[shamless self promotion]I would check out this post. This might help you to understand this concept better.
[/shamless self promotion]

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

Very helpful. Thanks.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think A3s is that good of a hand. I usually just limp in with them (their main strength is flopping a flush draw, with limited strength pairing the aces due to the bad kicker).

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No. This is a standard open raise from the hijack. You should NEVER open limp this from the hijack! A3 is a pretty good shorthanded hand.

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Now, playing 6 max, I actually don't open raise this hand from the hijack. I toss it. Too often you end up playing two or three opponents holding just one card. It's s00ted, but that doesn't matter as much with few opponents. CO I'll even consider tossing this if the blinds are really loose. By default, I tend to go down to A6 or A7 in the hijack, and A5 in the CO. Any A from the button is a no brainer, naturally. I agree that raising it up is much better than limping, however.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

Chase out a Ax to improve you chances of winning if you hit an A, and it gets money from the other 2 players on the turn since they would likely fold to a bet on the river if you hit your flush.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The preflop raise is good. Standard actually.

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Greg,

You have me confused. If i'm understanding Miller's book SSHE, and I am probably wrong, A3s is a call or fold from middle position , with no limpers I'm folding. With A3s I want to see a multi-way pot and a cheap flop.

Also in your "post about the first two cards" you say to almost never call from a late position, but Miller in SSHE says to call an unraised pot from late position with a number of hands such as K8s-K2s,KJ,KT,QJ,QT, etc.

If you cold help me understand this better I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks Bill

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The preflop raise is good. Standard actually.

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Greg,

You have me confused. If i'm understanding Miller's book SSHE, and I am probably wrong, A3s is a call or fold from middle position , with no limpers I'm folding. With A3s I want to see a multi-way pot and a cheap flop.

Also in your "post about the first two cards" you say to almost never call from a late position, but Miller in SSHE says to call an unraised pot from late position with a number of hands such as K8s-K2s,KJ,KT,QJ,QT, etc.

If you cold help me understand this better I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks Bill

[/ QUOTE ]

First: You seem to be mixed up on an important semantic point. I never say it's not correct to limp in from late position. I say that OPEN limping (ie when everyone has folding to you) in LP is rarely correct (if ever). I doubt NPA disagrees.

Second: [blasphemy] I don't like SSHE's preflop charts. [/blasphemy]

Ideally, A3s is good for lots of opponents in LP. It's also a nice hand to play heads up. Folding A3s here is not a huge mistake IMO, and at the right table is probably the correct thing to do. As Wook noted in this thread, he often folds it at a 6 max table (as will I, depending on the table).

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

Greg,
I'm going to try your advice. I have been following your post "Building a bankroll in the micros" and have hit a plateau at $150 playing .25/.50 at pokerstars. Maybe this will help get me to the next level.

Thanks Again
Bill

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

Follow Wookie's more updated guide to BR building. There is a link in the FAQ.

EDIT for grammer and spelling.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

&lt;grunch&gt;

preflop: why are you playing this hand? Why are you RAISING with this hand?

Flop: the pot is pretty huge, but what is BB's 3-betting range? AA-QQ and AKs? The only out you can buy here is the A in the case that he has KK. I don't raise this.

Turn: as played, good check. It would be very bad to bet this, as you would have to call a raise.

River: obvious fold.

&lt;/grunch&gt;
&lt;reading through posts&gt;
preflop raise is standard??? I stop stealing at A7s.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

Just incase you were wondering, which you probably weren't, he had JJ. If I knew, after the preflop action that he had JJ (which I didn't, obviously) I think this line is the best. Don't you?

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

*grunch*

I fold pf. Generally, I hate A-trash suited. These only play well in loose games when you have several limpers in front of you. I don't like the raise as this is an easily dominated hand.

I fold the flop. BB probably has Queens You need to hope for an Ace, which might be counterfeited anyway, or a BDFD.

I wouldn't be in the turn, but seeing as you are, checking is fine. Hmmm, BB either has a Queen with a weak kicker, or most probably AK. You are still behind.

I fold the river. BB probably does have AQ, he was worried by your flop raise that you could have AA of KK. You've shown weakness so he bets.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*

I fold pf. Generally, I hate A-trash suited. These only play well in loose games when you have several limpers in front of you. I don't like the raise as this is an easily dominated hand.

I fold the flop. BB probably has Queens You need to hope for an Ace, which might be counterfeited anyway, or a BDFD.

I wouldn't be in the turn, but seeing as you are, checking is fine. Hmmm, BB either has a Queen with a weak kicker, or most probably AK. You are still behind.

I fold the river. BB probably does have AQ, he was worried by your flop raise that you could have AA of KK. You've shown weakness so he bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, you fold getting 10.5:1 with a gutshot, an overcard and a BFD? Okay there.

Read the previous responses about the preflop action.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

[ QUOTE ]


Uh, you fold getting 9.5:1 with a gutshot, an overcard and a BFD? Okay there.

Read the previous responses about the preflop action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, seems I've got it wrong! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

Nah, alot of people missed the gutshot. Your advice is correct if we're missing the gutshot, and we're all here to make mistakes so we can get better : )

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

lets see....hmm, you call a three bet with a3 suited...no you should of never even seen teh flop...sorry if some one under me already said that i just read the main post

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

Usually at this limit I don't try to steal, but I would rather raise with this hand than open limp. I would probably just fold it here. When you raised and he 3 bet with only one limper in between I would lay this hand down.

On the flop you are getting 10.5:1 to hit your gutshot. That is almost enough to chase it. With the runner nut flush draw I probably would chase here. I would probably just call here instead of raise, but it didn't work out too bad for you (it got you a free card).

If he bet the turn again it would be an easy call with a nut flush draw. When you miss on the river it is an easy fold.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

Yeah, I think your postflop play is perfect.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
lets see....hmm, you call a three bet with a3 suited...no you should of never even seen teh flop...sorry if some one under me already said that i just read the main post

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh, I didn't call 3 bets. I opened, with A3s, and called one more bet on top.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree. I usually muck these hands, but my VPIP of 15.5 is too low IMO, and I'm trying to open up my game. Is this simply too marginal?

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Folding is certainly better than just calling here, that is for sure. But seriously dude, this is a standard raise here preflop.

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This is one of those situations which may be unconfortable for a lot of new folks. When get called by CO or button, and one or both blinds we must proceed with caution. The post-flop play will depend on the usual factors (opposition, board texture, pot, etc). Nevertheless playing these hands is a good learning experience. I have played a lot of short-handed now, but I am still uncomfortable with these situations!

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

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Chase out a Ax to improve you chances of winning if you hit an A, and it gets money from the other 2 players on the turn since they would likely fold to a bet on the river if you hit your flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with betting the turn. Who says your opponents will fold to a turn bet if you hit your flush? BB probably isn't ... it looks like he has at least a pair.

Besides, that only works if you hit your flush. It's not worth spending 1 BB because 80% of the time you miss your flush. 20% of the time you get your flush and you may (at best) get 2 BB (that you might have gotten anyway with a bet on the river). Betting the turn can not possibly be +EV because of your flush draw.

On the other hand, buying an Ace out might possibly be +EV but I somehow doubt it. The pot is only 7.75 BB and it'd cost 1 BB to do it.

I don't think the chances that somebody has a better Ace and they will fold the better Ace, and the Ace will come on the river are better than 1 in 7.75.

All that combined with the chance of being forced to call a check-raise because of your all your outs I think makes this a clear turn check.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

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preflop raise is standard??? I stop stealing at A7s.

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Open-raising A3s may have become standard advice in this forum, but that doesn't mean it's standard or correct in an absolute sense (however you define those terms).

IMO, unless you have some spectacular reads, A3s should be treated like a drawing hand looking for multi-way or heads-up action.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

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preflop raise is standard??? I stop stealing at A7s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Open-raising A3s may have become standard advice in this forum, but that doesn't mean it's standard or correct in an absolute sense (however you define those terms).

IMO, unless you have some spectacular reads, A3s should be treated like a drawing hand looking for multi-way or heads-up action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking for heads-up action is precisely why you need to raise this hand if you're coming into the pot first.

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

Yeah, I can see that argument, but there are three people left to act. Maybe it's a mistake, but when I raise from the CO, I generally assume that I'll get two callers. (I don't have PT at work, so I can't check to see how full of it I am.)

Re: A3s, okay play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I can see that argument, but there are three people left to act. Maybe it's a mistake, but when I raise from the CO, I generally assume that I'll get two callers. (I don't have PT at work, so I can't check to see how full of it I am.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it all depends where you play, or even the table you're on right now. For example, I've played a lot of tables at AP where I expect to get a max of 1 caller when raising out of the CO.

There are times I open-limp weak suited aces on the button: when the blinds are so loose they will call a raise with any two and they are terrible post flop. It's kind of a delayed blind steal, you'll usually pick up their blinds if they don't hit the flop. I think there's something in HEPFAP about this. This is the exception for me, not the norm.