JJ against EP raiser
 

I haven't long sat down in this game. I only have a handful of hands on villain but he's played a third and raised half of them. What concerns me is the flop raise. Good or bad? I'm thinking that worst case I get the other guy to fold and increase my chances down the track if I'm behind. I call the turn because I picked up a gutshot, and the river because AT, a lower pair or an AK that is bluffing are possible



PokerRoom 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG (Villain) raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG (Villain) calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12.60 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Villain 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.80 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (11.80 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.80 BB

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

the flop raise is totally standard. calling is unbearably awful.

i cap the flop then call down if he leads the turn.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

I don't know. I'm not sure he has AT often enough for this to be the right move.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know. I'm not sure he has AT often enough for this to be the right move.

[/ QUOTE ]

You fold the river?

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

Capping flop is good , otherwise played well.

Although I do see a lot of people calling down after the 3-bet on the flop too

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

cap the flop? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

please elaborate?

here is my elaboration...

ok, can someone help me put villan on a hand. im saying a non-pair broadway hand is unlikely after the flop 3-bet. it is possible he would play AA-TT this way, QQ-TT being more likely than AA-KK. he could also play AT,KT _maybe_ QT this way. am i close?

AA-QQ - 6 combos each, im going to discount it to 4 combos each due to lack of PF cap. total of 12.
JJ - only one of them left
TT - only 3 of them
AT - 12
KT - 12
QT - 12, but ill chop this down to 6.

30 in front
15 behind.
1 chop

wow, ok. cap that bitch. am i way off? or is this what you were thinking tyler?

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

Yeah, I cap the flop too. I call down if he leads turn. Else I bet. If raised again on the turn, I could see slowing down.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
cap the flop? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

please elaborate?


[/ QUOTE ]

i was mostly looking at this:

[ QUOTE ]

I only have a handful of hands on villain but he's played a third and raised half of them.


[/ QUOTE ]

this read + we have an overpair + we have position == cap the flop.

but good job on the bayesian analysis. i dunno about even a LAG raising QTo preflop, though.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

int thingsLearntToday = 0

[ QUOTE ]
I only have a handful of hands on villain but he's played a third and raised half of them

[/ QUOTE ]

i actually mostly disregarded that. i guess it depends howmany a "handful" is. i find i will often have stats that read 30/15 after my first 20 hands in a session.

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno about even a LAG raising QTo preflop, though

[/ QUOTE ]
fair enough, so if you drop my estimate of 6 combos of QT down to 4, we are looking at being infront of 28 holdings and behind 15 still.

cool, thanks for the post OP and thanks for the input tyler.

i would probably play as OP did, but after some more thinking, capping flop looks better.

thingsLearntToday++;

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
int thingsLearntToday = 0

[ QUOTE ]
I only have a handful of hands on villain but he's played a third and raised half of them

[/ QUOTE ]

i actually mostly disregarded that. i guess it depends howmany a "handful" is. i find i will often have stats that read 30/15 after my first 20 hands in a session.

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno about even a LAG raising QTo preflop, though

[/ QUOTE ]
fair enough, so if you drop my estimate of 6 combos of QT down to 4, we are looking at being infront of 28 holdings and behind 15 still.

cool, thanks for the post OP and thanks for the input tyler.

i would probably play as OP did, but after some more thinking, capping flop looks better.

thingsLearntToday++;

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, a handful really was a handful, but I've learned too. On the table, you think "[censored], I'm beaten" but your analysis has shown me a spot where I'm losing value. So thanks guys.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
int thingsLearntToday = 0

[/ QUOTE ]

oh dear god you're a java programmer aren't you. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know. I'm not sure he has AT often enough for this to be the right move.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You fold the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, I was actually responding to Tyler's original idea of capping the flop.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
int thingsLearntToday = 0

[/ QUOTE ]

oh dear god you're a java programmer aren't you. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you rather have:
DATA DIVISION.
01 WS_THINGS_LEARNED_TODAY PIC 99 VALUE ZEROS.

PRODCEDURE DIVISION.

PERFORM 120-LEARNED-TODAY THRU
120-LEARNED-TODAY-EXIT.

120-LEARNED-TODAY.
************************************************** *******
* 120-LEARNED-TODAY
* CALLED BY 100-READING-THE-WEB
* LETS INCREMENT THE WHAT I LEARNED COUNTER
************************************************** *******

ADD +1 TO WS_THINGS_LEARNED_TODAY
.
120-LEARNED-TODAY-EXIT.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

Cap the flop with your read, he could be doing this with AT, 99 and 88 or maybe even KTs.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

I probably play it the same but I dont think capping the flop is bad either.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]

Would you rather have:
DATA DIVISION.
01 WS_THINGS_LEARNED_TODAY PIC 99 VALUE ZEROS.

PRODCEDURE DIVISION.

PERFORM 120-LEARNED-TODAY THRU
120-LEARNED-TODAY-EXIT.

120-LEARNED-TODAY.
************************************************** *******
* 120-LEARNED-TODAY
* CALLED BY 100-READING-THE-WEB
* LETS INCREMENT THE WHAT I LEARNED COUNTER
************************************************** *******

ADD +1 TO WS_THINGS_LEARNED_TODAY
.
120-LEARNED-TODAY-EXIT.

[/ QUOTE ]

jesus.

props on the code fragment. is this fortran?

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cap the flop with your read, he could be doing this with AT, 99 and 88 or maybe even KTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of those hands, versus 88 we're toast and versus 99 we don't want to cap and drive out, so that only leaves a very aggressively played AT and perhaps a KTs.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

buck,

you don't have to add too many combos of spazzily-played AK to make the cap profitable.

plus, i won't be tempted to raise on a big street if i cap the flop and villain keeps leading into me.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh dear god you're a java programmer aren't you

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, yes i am.

unfortunatly, playing 1/2 a few k hands a month doesnt pay the bills [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

mnove up - 5/10

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

no worries, mate. i'm just teasing.

mostly.

at least you didn't say VB.NET.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

ahahah just did a 3-day intro type course in that shiz on work's coin.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Would you rather have:
DATA DIVISION.
01 WS_THINGS_LEARNED_TODAY PIC 99 VALUE ZEROS.

PRODCEDURE DIVISION.

PERFORM 120-LEARNED-TODAY THRU
120-LEARNED-TODAY-EXIT.

120-LEARNED-TODAY.
************************************************** *******
* 120-LEARNED-TODAY
* CALLED BY 100-READING-THE-WEB
* LETS INCREMENT THE WHAT I LEARNED COUNTER
************************************************** *******

ADD +1 TO WS_THINGS_LEARNED_TODAY
.
120-LEARNED-TODAY-EXIT.

[/ QUOTE ]

jesus.

props on the code fragment. is this fortran?

[/ QUOTE ]

Worse.

COBOL

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

Tyler,

Villain would have to be playing a pretty spazzy AK given the board and his previous action. I'm not quite buying it.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

you don't think someone with (poorly defined) LAGgish tendencies is capping QQ/KK/AA preflop?

discount those holdings a little, and just add a *few* times when he's getting spazzy with AK and you've got a solid value cap.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't long sat down in this game. I only have a handful of hands on villain but he's played a third and raised half of them. What concerns me is the flop raise. Good or bad? I'm thinking that worst case I get the other guy to fold and increase my chances down the track if I'm behind. I call the turn because I picked up a gutshot, and the river because AT, a lower pair or an AK that is bluffing are possible



PokerRoom 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG (Villain) raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG (Villain) calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12.60 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Villain 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.80 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (11.80 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.80 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

As I stated in another thread, you call on the river due to size of the pot. You have to consider what the pot is laying you. If the pot is tiny then of course you'll fold more readily. In this case it's easy, you call. I will say that IMO you're a big dog on the river but the pot is laying you a great price.

Re: JJ against EP raiser
 

Grunch

I think the hand was well played. You don't haven't played enough with Villian here to get a good read, but still played well. I like how you slowed down on the turn and river. That is a problem I sometimes have.