Should I be discouraged?
 

I went to a casino for the first time last night. I played 3/6 Limit Hold'em, and bought in for 130 (I forgot 20 bucks at home somehow, so I didn't buy-in for 150). The night was pretty inconsistent for me. I started out well, stealing some pots with at a six-handed, fairly tight table. Then, I got this great run of starting hands, and that's when it all went downhill.

In a span of about 30 hands, I was dealt QQ,QQ,JJ,77,55,55,AQs,AQo,AJo,ATo,KQs and KJo. Of those hands, I was only victorious with the pocket fives, because I hit a set twice. The rest, I missed to flop completely, or was outflopped. Given the 10 unprofitable premium hands, I was down to about 25 chips. Luckily, I was able to triple up when I flopped an OESFD and hit the flush, and I won a few other small pots to get back up to 116, meaning I was only down 14 for the night. I had to stop then after three hours of playing (about half as much as I wanted) and I felt has though I could've won my money back.

After all that, I felt extremely poorly about how I played, but I also felt as though I got extremely unlucky. I know I shouldn't expect everyone of my premuim hands to hold up, but since virtually none of them did, I feel lost. My best hand of the night came when I made a loose call in MP with 9d7d and got really lucky.

What should I think? Was I just particularly unlucky, or should I reevaluate my game?

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

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I felt extremely poorly about how I played, but I also felt as though I got extremely unlucky.

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yea, getting those hands hurts, and weve all got our bad beat stories. the point is, if u were breaking almost even at the end of the night, down 2.5 bb, it could have been much worse. try posting some of the hands u didnt feel you played well. if you cut out the fat of poorly played hands (ahhh, 1 big mistake is a lot more than 3 bb) then you change from a small negative, to a 1 or 2 bb winner.

so, post some hands and try to polish your play, but if ur getting discuouraged after 1 night, or thinking "i do well when i play crap cards like others " then this might not be the game for you.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

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What should I think? Was I just particularly unlucky, or should I reevaluate my game?

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Both!!!

First of all, everyone should always be in the process of constantly reevaluating their game. Even the best football players in the world are training in the off season and in between games.

If you can remember any specific hands that you'd like feedback on, post them on here and it may help to have others evaluate too.

Secondly, it does sound like you were unlucky. It happens. Variance is a bitch! Some days you play less than perfect poker, the decks smacks you upside the head with great flops, turns and rivers, and you make a killing. Other days, you play absolutely perfect poker and you run card dead and lose. It's the nature of the beast! Don't get discouraged over one session.

(But if it makes you feel any better - I lost $900 last night! Didn't win a single pot in the last 3 hours I played. Unless you count that one hand where we chopped the blinds!)

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

I'd re-evaluate your game if you consider AJo, wierd sevens and fives and A10o premium hands. They are playable but dont excpect to win with them every time. AS far as the rest of your game who knows try posting a few hands and see what happens

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

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Luckily, I was able to triple up when I flopped an OESFD and hit the flush...

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I hope you didn't lose value on this hand because you were shortstacked. That would be bad. Take more money to the table with you. $100 can go in one orbit.

Everyone has nights like you describe. Sometimes you think it would be better to be dealt 82o for a couple orbits. Hang in there and analyze your play.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

How many pots we're raised pre-flop? re-raised? capped?
How many players saw each flop?
How many players saw the turn? River?
Was there much betting on the turn? RIver?
Was there much raising on the turn? River?

What was your position at the table relative to the aggressive players?

Depending on the answers to these questions (and more), I probably would have played more, or fewer hand than you listed.

And yes, sometimes you can be in a loosey-juicy game, play perfect and lose your ass.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

Post a couple hands from that night that were tough decisions for you. The collective wisdom of this forum will make sure you didn’t miss anything. Other than that, just read, study and learn to get better.

I used to only read and post here when I had a bad run to get my game back in line and to get my confidence back. Now, I read and post more regularly and I can say my game is better and more consistent.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

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I had to stop then after three hours of playing

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Asking for advice on about 90-100 hands must be the most atrocious sample-size-issue-post ever to grace the SS Forum! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Seriously OP - how do you expect anyone to give constructive criticsm on your play when all you've given is a few starting hands. You say that you feel like you played poorly - why? You also say that you feel you were unlucky - why?

It seems to me like you're making judgements about your play based on how much money you went with versus how much money you left with. It's called results-oriented thinking and it's not an accurate way to evaluate your performance in any game that involves a combination of luck and skill.

To effectively anaylze your play, you need to extract specific situations for your session(s) that you feel you need advice on. Post them and ask for feedback from the community.

Good luck!!

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

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I had to stop then after three hours of playing

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Asking for advice on about 90-100 hands must be the most atrocious sample-size-issue-post ever to grace the SS Forum! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Seriously OP - how do you expect anyone to give constructive criticsm on your play when all you've given is a few starting hands. You say that you feel like you played poorly - why? You also say that you feel you were unlucky - why?

It seems to me like you're making judgements about your play based on how much money you went with versus how much money you left with. It's called results-oriented thinking and it's not an accurate way to evaluate your performance in any game that involves a combination of luck and skill.

To effectively anaylze your play, you need to extract specific situations for your session(s) that you feel you need advice on. Post them and ask for feedback from the community.

Good luck!!

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While this post is a little harsh, it is also (mostly) correct. I also suggest you post some hands.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

I think OP is looking for us to help his confidence. So, I'll add: this has happened to me, and I am sure it has happened to everyone who has been playing limit for any appreciable time. Variance is a bitch.

Just don't forget to enjoy yourself and take all the knocks with a good disposition because you know that luck is random.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

as many have already commented, without more info about the table, position and specific hands, it is hard to critique how you played. However, I did notice that you seem to automatically assume certain starting hands are premium hands. This might show a lack of understanding on your part of what constitutes a good starting hand since it is so dependent on the kind of game (loose v tight, passive v aggressive) and your position. For example, the hand that worked for you, 55, is not a good starting hand in early position in an aggressive game. You enter the pot, someone raises, you are HU OOP and it is tough to play. Likewise, in a loose game, ATo is not a very good hand to play. You might land up with 5 or 6 players, and this hand doesn't is extremely hard to play (hit your A, very easily reverse dominated). The bottom line, as others have said, there is a lot more to the game than thinking that 15 or so starting hands are premium and must be played and should usually win.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

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What should I think? Was I just particularly unlucky, or should I reevaluate my game?

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If you can't answer this for yourself with confidence then you need to study the game more. A while back I had the same problem . . . I would play X amount of hands and have Y results . . . now I know I shouldn't judge my play on (short term) results . . . but I didn't know enough about the game to say if I played well (or not) in spite of results. Once you have a deeper understanding of the game . . . you can see your own errors, but also know you made the right play, even if you lose a hand. I remeber the first time I called down with a flush draw and lost with confidence knowing that I had odds to justify calling the flop and turn. Now its just a matter of building the same level of confidence and understanding with all the hands that I play.

My advice to you then is to study the game. Post hands if you get a chance and DONT post the results . . . The feedback you will get from a lot of the guys here is invaluable to improve your game. With enough experience you will be able to say, "Yes I definately had the odds in my favor and lost due to bad luck tonight."

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

Lots of good feedback for you about how to proceed. Start with SPECIFIC hands without results and play What's My Line. Compare recommendations to your play. Try to pick the hand that either puzzled you or frustrated you the most from your last session.

I play 2/4, 3/6 and 4/8 live exclusively. The live thing is also unsettling as you admitted being a virgin. The feedback you've gotten and a probable unliklihood of your ability to remember hands in detail from your session may be frustrating you now because we are asking questions that you can't answer, but you know you should be able to answer. You'll keep better track next time.

There is a serious learning curve to live play. Read Psychology of Poker by Spoonmaker. Follow that up one month later with Caro's Book of Tells. It took me a year of regular live play to feel genuinely confident. (most of the time! lol)

Be ready to constantly reevaluate your game at your stage of play. But do so objectively, not with a negative attitude.

For a little perspective consider these 3 sessions that all happened to me within the last 3 months.

1) a 3/6 session where I dropped $240 playing TIGHT, but I didn't win a single hand in almost 3 hours! I couldn't hit a draw and if someone else needed a card, I might as well have been looking through the deck and handing it out!
2) A 2/4 session where w/in 1 hour these hands occurred. I had QQ - up against AA. I had KK up against AA. I had AA up against, you guessed it AA and WE BOTH LOST!!!
3) Last Friday, won 100BB at 3/6. Next night won the 20% jackpot for another $1,000. I just found my Vegas bankroll for my Vegas run in two weeks.

Keep a ledger of your TOTAL results. Not just one session.

At your stage of development after EACH SESSION ask yourself: 1) What do I need to CONTINUE doing (what worked?), 2) What do I need to STOP doing (change no more than 10% of your game), and 3) What should I START doing, again, change only a portion of your game.

Give it a year to dial it in. Review constantly and objectively. I did a serious re-tool after 15 months of regular play and my confidence and results have soared even with sessions 1) & 2). above.

Now go back out there and play live again. You aren't a virgin anymore.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

Guys, the OP (Illfavor) has disapeared. I get the feeling he doesn't care anymore.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

This may or may not apply to you but I know that when I go play live I like to have at least a couple buy-ins with me. You said, "...I was down to about 25 chips. Luckily, I was able to triple up when I flopped an OESFD and hit the flush, and I won a few other small pots to get back up to 116..."

Having a low stack can make you play timid or sometimes overly-aggressive (bust or go home mentality), it does for me at times, so I like having a good amount in front of me so that I can make decisions better. Theoretically speaking it makes sense to have enough for a cap at every lvl, just in case you get a monster.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

I haven't disappeared, I just don't really have the time to be online alot in one day and haven't been able to get back till now. Thank you for your patience.

Now that I've processed to tons of information given to me by my site comrades, I'm prepared to answer some of the questions.

Some hands that are probable questionable on my part:

Two players fold and I'm third to act and pick up JcJd. I raise, and get 2 folds, and I get a call from person just before the button (CO seat?) and the BB. 3 to the flop.

The flop comes Td9h3h. The BB checks and I bet, and only get called by the CO guy.

The turn is 9d. I bet again, and the opponent raises. At this point I've played with this guy for about 2 hours and know that he just calls preflop with a large range of hands, from 87o to QQ, but have only seen him raise in rare circumstances, normally when he has a pretty good hand. I called even though I thought I was beat. A mistake?

The River was the Qc, I check/called, and lost to Jh8d. I was totally confused by his turn raise which I guess was a bluff on the 9. What were my mistakes on this?

I'll post another hand later today.

Jaykon:
How many pots we're raised pre-flop? re-raised? capped? About 1/4 of the pots were raised, and the only reraising ever done was by me to put a player all-in. None were ever capped.
How many players saw each flop? 3 on average
How many players saw the turn? River? 2-3
Was there much betting on the turn? RIver? Never checked around, but not much reraising
Was there much raising on the turn? River? Not really. The most raising came from my lone cap with my OESFD on the flop and turn, but otherwise the action was fairly passive.

Having answered this questions, it seems like the table was pretty tight. My mediocre hands like ATo and even AJ/KJ to some degree were probably overvalued. I recall that the majority of the showdowns ended with some great cards being shown, often losing to a sheepish player with a mediocre hand. I think my table observation was nonexistent, because I can now recall all of these obvious signs about how people played that I didn't even consider while I was there. I wasn't always considering position, which is a no-no, and I got caught up in the excitement of playing live for the first time. I got arrogant because I had some good reads on the other players, but I still ignored them to some degree. I didn't plan on going in there and doing everything right, but now it seems as though I didn't do much of anything correct. I was overwhelmed by information, and I think that problem will go away with more experience.

Thanks everybody. Further criticism is appreciated.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

You were playing live at a classic TIGHT passive table. These are more predictable than a table occupied by a couple of LAG's, but you must play, particularly PF, by the tight set of acceptable hands rules. This can be really boring in a grind it out environment. I want a looser table, where it is easier to spot dead $, even if I face higher variances. I want to see at least 5 players see a flop unless I want a quiet session.

At the same time, asking you to think of asking for a table change as a virgin is setting way too high an expectation for your first visit. Tight tables do offer some learning advantages. They make it easier to focus on reads, isolation plays, semi-bluffing, etc., because you face fewer opponents.

Wild and woolly games take bluffing and isolation out of play, and instead emphasize pot odds and pot equity calculations in the race to no fold 'em hold 'em.

I suggest that you pick ONE or at most TWO skills you want to focus on per live session, reads, counting outs, looking for check opportunities, etc. and focus on those skills alone. IMO trying to get good at all those things at once is a guaranteed path to confusion and failure.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

Thanks fishyak. I think I was just trying to do much, and it conflicted with my basic goals. I also never classified my table, which was a huge mistake. I'll be sure to focus on a minimal number of skills to focus on in the near future. I think I have a good idea of the starting hand requirements for the table types, but that's no good if I don't define the table that I'm at.

Re: Should I be discouraged?
 

Now at least you put your finger on what didn't work. Live table selection with unknowns is VERY different from online. Almost the first question to answer is "Is this a tight or loose table?" Answered by the number of people seeing flops. Is it passive or aggro? How many raises do you see? That let's you pick your opening style that you can adjust as the game unfolds.

At the same time failing to take those steps made you feel "out of sync" the whole time you were at that table. You have now learned one thing from one session. If each of us really learned just ONE lesson from each session, we would all become awesome players.