$50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

Hi! This is my first hand-post in SSNL, I'm an old limit donk.

Villain is 20/5/1.6 after 800 hands, no other reads. Effective stacks 94$.


Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="red"> Hero raises to $4.5 </font> , 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds.

<font color="blue"> My preflop raise is a little bit larger than I usually raise here. But I don't mind taking the pot right now nor do I fear playing AK oop vs one opponent which seems to be the likely case if I get called. Standard I guess. Thoughts? </font>


Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($11, 2 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $8 </font>, <font color="red"> CO raises to $16 </font>, Hero?

<font color="blue"> So, this seems to be the worst case scenario, called by a relatively tight player with a deep stack, I hit and he min-raises my bet. Bet out more on the flop? But more importantly, what should be my line from here and what range do you put villain on?</font>

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

I call the minraise and lead the turn for 2/3 pot. If villain raises me there I'm done with the hand.

There are no draws here, so either he has hit his set/2pair, has a weaker ace or is trying to steal the pot. Unless villain is particularly tricky the first type will probably raise or call the turn, the 2nd almost always just calls down and the 3rd gives up.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

Call and re-evaluate turn. If he pushes turn I'm getting away. He looks like a passive player. I might want to see a showdown here but ONLY if it is cheap.
Edit: Oh you are OOP, yeeah I like a call and lead turn approach here.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

range... a weaker A most likely, 44 possible, A4 possible, AJ possible.

The old donk me reraises the flop and only gets called by better hands. The new me (less donkish, but still some lingering effects) calls the flop raise and does his best to manage the pot size and try for as cheap a showdown as possible. Playing OOP sucks doesn't it! I'm inclined to call the flop raise and check the turn and re-evaluate. If villian checks behind on the turn, I'm liking my hand more and lead the river. If villian bets the turn but weakish, I call again and see what happens on the river. I guess that's pretty passive, but it just seems we are only going to get played back at by better hands where we can alternatively be passive and call weakish bets from weaker aces. If the bets look strong on the turn/river from villian, I don't mind folding my one pair.

Turn
 

Thanks for the respnoses! I agree calling the flop with the intention of betting the turn is best.

I called the flop and turn was a Q. Still bet?

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

Maybe I'm weak tight but I think I fold here based on my only read being villain's PT stats and the fact that I am OOP. What hands that we beat are played this way by a player with a 1.6 post flop AF? I just don't see him raising the flop with something like A9 or AT and there are no draws out. The only hand I think you beat here is AQ.

I put villain on 44,AJ,JJ,AK, and maybe AQ.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

From one limit donk to another. I call the flop and try to play a small pot from there on. I guess a turn lead of just over half pot would be okey and fold to a raise.

Preflop and flop looks good to me.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

For those who are advocating calling and leading the turn (a $20 bet into a $43 pot right?) Now say the river bricks off and we have 50 with 80 in the pot, now what? It seems that the villains only bet here is a push and I really hate both calling and folding.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm weak tight but I think I fold here based on my only read being villain's PT stats and the fact that I am OOP. What hands that we beat are played this way by a player with a 1.6 post flop AF? I just don't see him raising the flop with something like A9 or AT and there are no draws out. The only hand I think you beat here is AQ.

I put villain on 44,AJ,JJ,AK, and maybe AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold here gives up too easily against a move that is often what villains perceive to be "feeler raises." AK and JJ are unrealistic. AJ, 44, and A4s are all possible holdings. AQ is possible but also unlikely given the limp preflop.

As played, villain is minraising with a weaker A enoug for you to call. I like a call, lead turn, and fold to further action.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

What's the point in calling the mini-raise if only 5 cards can improve Hero's hand, one of which Villain may be holding? Especially when none of them may actually be "outs" if Villain has a set?

Calling + leading the turn for 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot means committing another $32 to $36 to the pot with one pair. If you're not gonna fold (which is what I'd be learning towards here), why not just 3-bet on the flop and shut down after any resistance? You'd save several bucks and it puts pressure on Villain to define their hand further rather than forcing yourself to make an expensive decision on the turn.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's the point in calling the mini-raise if only 5 cards can improve Hero's hand, one of which Villain may be holding? Especially when none of them may actually be "outs" if Villain has a set?

Calling + leading the turn for 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot means committing another $32 to $36 to the pot with one pair. If you're not gonna fold (which is what I'd be learning towards here), why not just 3-bet on the flop and shut down after any resistance? You'd save several bucks and it puts pressure on Villain to define their hand further rather than forcing yourself to make an expensive decision on the turn.

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Doesn't 3betting the flop commit the $32 - $36 as well? And 3betting the flop is usually just going to get action from better hands. I still think doing our best to keep the pot small is the way to go.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

Check the flop and keep the pot small. I don't like how much you raise pre flop either as it invites a landmine.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

My sense is that a 3-bet need not cost $40 here. Obviously, I'm not advocating a donkbet to $24, but something in-between will get more information from Villain sooner rather than later. The turn can help Villain just as easily as Hero (if not more), and we don't need an extra card to cloud the analysis further.

The only way to keep the pot smaller after calling the flop mini-raise is to check, and that's practically waving a white flag. I'd rather have my final act be one of aggression, and force Villain into making the decision. Calling the mini-raise + leading the turn is hardly passive, but I still think it doesn't send as forceful of a message as a 3-bet.

Any of the vets/pooh-bahs want to weigh in on this? I'm still relatively new at SSNL (~21K hands) and would like to hear from those with more experience under their belt.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

3-bet/no more money in is a horrible flop line, more so OOP. When he calls you really have no idea where you are.

I'd call the flop and probably check the turn, decide what to do based on the size of his bet. Make a near PSB on the river if he checks behind. You can be pretty sure that if he wants to get ai then your hand is no good.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet/no more money in is a horrible flop line, more so OOP. When he calls you really have no idea where you are.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? With no real draws on the board, are Villains with AQ really calling a 3-bet (or better yet, calling a $4 raise PF as a 20/5 player)? IMO, if Villain calls, I just don't see how TPTK can be good.

Similarly, is a Villain who calls the 3-bet on the flop really going to check behind or make a weak bet on the turn? Maybe I'm missing something here.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop and keep the pot small. I don't like how much you raise pre flop either as it invites a landmine.

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this is beyond weaktight.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

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Really? With no real draws on the board, this seems like a classic WA/WB situation to me.

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Yes, this is why raising is wrong.

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Are Villains with AQ really calling a 3-bet (or better yet, calling a $4 raise PF as a 20/5 player)? IMO, if Villain calls, I just don't see how TPTK can be good.

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It's SSNL He might minraise the flop with A5 to 'find out here he's at' and end up calling off his whole stack. That's why it's profitable.

Btw, are you 3-betting here with any two cards? Because if your assumptions are correct hen the fact that you have TPTK is irrelevant. It's called turning a good hand into 72o.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

Oops, I edited my previous post because maybe I misunderstood the WA/WB concept. WA/WB is where both are equally likely, right?

IMO, this seems to be a situation where Hero is more likely WB than WA. Given the preflop play, it's pretty unlikely that a tight Villain will call $4 with a weaker ace. On the off-chance that they do, he's just as likely to have AQ as AJ.

[ QUOTE ]
Btw, are you 3-betting here with any two cards?

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Not sure what you're getting at here. If I miss the flop and Villain mini-raises my c-bet, isn't it an easy fold?

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
WA/WB is where both are equally likely, right?

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WA/WB in NL is where if you hare ahead villain has few outs, if you are behind then you have few outs, and if you raise worse hands fold and better hands call.

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Not sure what you're getting at here. If I miss the flop and Villain mini-raises my c-bet, isn't it an easy fold?

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You're assuming that if you reraise and he calls then your hand is definitely no good, yes? If so, it doesn't matter that you have top pair top kicker, because you're always behind and can't win a showdown. So 3-betting with a hand worse than TPTK has exactly the same expected value.

You say his is more likely WB than WA - so why are you eager to put more money in the pot?

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

I guess I'm still not convinced that putting more money into the pot with a call is any better. You're just buying into Villain's goal of building the pot. While it's true that 3-betting does the same, at least you're projecting the possibility of AA or TT. Calling seems to scream that you have AK/AQ and puts Villain in a great advantage going into the turn with position.

Ultimately, I agree with you that in a WA/WB situation, pot-control is the main consideration, which is why I wouldn't have necessarily led the flop and check-called instead. That way, the pot would've been around $27 going into the turn. But given how OP played it, 3-bet disguises his hand and makes Villain think twice about whether or not his two pair or set of 4s really is better. And if Villain's stats aren't 20/5 but, say, 40/15, I would concede that calling the mini-raise is probably better.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

Would a really big hand raise this flop?

A lot of players play KK QQ JJ TT the way you played this hand with a larger than normal preflop bet.

I call the mini raise 50% of the time and raise the other 50%.

You're not playing a small pot here if you continue with the hand andI don't like donking the turn as much as much as I like check raise pushing or potting it.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

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While it's true that 3-betting does the same, at least you're projecting the possibility of AA or TT.

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This is playing poker with your emotions. You feel weak so you try to look strong. If you consistently do this with marginal hands then it's going to cost you money.

Re: $50 - AK flops tptk oop HU with deep stacks
 

I dont like calling his min raise here because you still dont know what it means. I would tend to fold or 3 bet given his stat. If he has a better hand he pushes and you will have a chance to get this to showdown cheaper if he has TP as he will check behind more often than not and you can call his weakish river bet! I think he has atleast 2 pairs!

[ QUOTE ]
Hi! This is my first hand-post in SSNL, I'm an old limit donk.

Villain is 20/5/1.6 after 800 hands, no other reads. Effective stacks 94$.


Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="red"> Hero raises to $4.5 </font> , 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds.

<font color="blue"> My preflop raise is a little bit larger than I usually raise here. But I don't mind taking the pot right now nor do I fear playing AK oop vs one opponent which seems to be the likely case if I get called. Standard I guess. Thoughts? </font>


Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($11, 2 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $8 </font>, <font color="red"> CO raises to $16 </font>, Hero?

<font color="blue"> So, this seems to be the worst case scenario, called by a relatively tight player with a deep stack, I hit and he min-raises my bet. Bet out more on the flop? But more importantly, what should be my line from here and what range do you put villain on?</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Thoughts and results
 

As said, the turn was a Q and I ended up check/folding to a 34$ bet (more than 3/4 pot). Given the turn check I'm certain folding to this bet is correct. The Q was the worst possible card to fall on the turn as it puts me behind the most likely hand I'm ahead of, AQ. I have to admit I didn't really consider betting the turn, but I think it's a good idea. But when the turn is a Q I think checking and folding to a bet this size is at least relatively close.

After he folded he showed me 88. I was multitabling during the hand and it took me some time to bet the flop (maybe 12-15 sec) which leads me to think he's becoming more likely to try to bluff me (I felt this way at the time I plyed the hand too). When I pause like this it could easily be interpreted as I have KK/QQ. Is this just my imagination or have you guys experienced anything similair? When this is the case, should I bet mote on the flop to make me look stronger? This time I bet relatively small on the flop. Just some thoughts, all comments appreciated.

Re: Thoughts and results
 

It takes balls to continue with 88 on that board.

He read you sooo gooot.