Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

At least that’s my hope.

Hi folks,

In the hopes of eliminating future "what books should I be reading" posts, I would like to have a discussion of the various books that are out there so people can get the opinions of informed posters other than myself. I will be sending PMs and emails to a few valued contributors who don't necessarily post every day in the hopes that they will weigh in. In particular, there are some intelligent folks who know something about poker who advocate the books by West, Adams, and Othmer. While I’m not a fan of any of these books, I do want their advocates to talk about them a bit so that we can give a more balanced assessment of the various books. If successful, this thread will be immortalized in the FAQs.

No matter what form of poker you play, even if it's nine-card blind baseball, The Theory of Poker is must reading. Do not skip the draw and razz examples.

For high-only stud, the best book out there by a long shot is Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players by Sklansky, Malmuth, and Zee. Even if you are playing a small-stakes game with an ante structure that is very different from “real” stud, this is the best book for you to read, in my opinion.

For stud/8, the best book out there by a wide margin is High-Low Split Poker for Advanced Players by Ray Zee. Unlike high-only stud, starting hand requirements and how you should play a given hand just don’t change much in stud/8 whether you’re playing $.50/1.00 or $30/60.

Chip Reese’s stud section in Super/System is excellent. Todd Brunson’s stud/8 section in Super System 2 is very good.

Some advocate Roy West’s 7 Card Stud: 42 Lessons as a beginner’s book. I cannot agree with this. It is easier to read and understand than 7CS4AP, but there is just too much substandard advice for me to recommend it. To use an example which I have beaten to death, there is a section where he discusses how to play a pair of Kings when someone with an Ace showing raises. If the Kings are split, he advocates folding (which is quite reasonable against many low-limit opponents), but he recommends calling if your Kings are hidden, because of the deceptive value. He goes on to recommend that you fold your Kings on fourth street if you don’t make trips, however. This is a terrible game plan. Assuming that you’re at a full table and your Kings are live, it is 20:1 against your catching trips on fourth street. You aren’t getting anything close to those odds, express, implied, or otherwise. If you are going to fold on fourth street when you don’t make trips, then you should fold on third street.

I bought Othmer’s book a few years ago and have tried to read it a few times. It is very dense with lots of charts and numbers and things. It may well contain some worthwhile advice, but I find it difficult to read, and I mostly play hold’em these days anyway.

I’ve read about half of Ashley Adams’ book. The approach of teaching things “wrong” at first and then correcting the bad assumptions later has its place. It’s how physics is taught, and I don’t think there is a better way. I don’t think that this kind of approach is really necessary in poker. I have a vague idea for a stud book which would be geared towards low-limit players, if perhaps not complete beginners. I can’t think of too many situations where I would really try to simplify any advice I give very much. Now I would probably recommend that a beginning player dump something like 765 on third street every time while he’s learning, because that’s the sort of hand that typical players get into a lot of trouble with, and it’s not very profitable even for very good players anyway. Admittedly, I haven’t gotten to the part where he “corrects” the first part of the book, but what I have read is weak enough advice that I doubt that the rest of it is brilliant.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Nice 4000th post Andy - maybe you should sticky this for easy future reference?

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

I haven't read Hellmuth's book in a while, but I know there is a section on stud and stud 8/b along with a section on razz as well. Anyone remember if these sections are any good? I might have to reread them sometime soon and see what I can find.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Since it apparently wasn't clear, once I get a few responses, this thread will be linked from the sticky.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

The stud/8 section is actually OK. I haven't read the stud or razz sections, though. I did pull this book out and thought about mentioning it, but decided against it in the interest of getting this thing up. Since you mention it, maybe I'll read it this week and include some comments.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Thanks for your 4,000th post.

Have you seen this thread? 2+2 LL stud book..

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Yeah I just got done rereading the 8/B section (real quick read) and it actually seemed decent. There was some advice that I thought was good but I think he also gave some advice about taking a card off when I would clearly fold. I'll have to look a little better and see if I can get some examples up here on something

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Hi all:

I thought I'd add in my few cents on the stud works floating around out there nowadays since Andy says "This is the book thread to end all book threads". If we really never see the question "what books should I be reading" again, then my time doing this was well spent.

For stud hi-low, there is really no reason to consider reading anything other than "Hi-Low-Split Poker" by Ray Zee. The first half of the book is geared towards stud/8 and is the best work ever done on it. If you can understand whats in the first 172 pages, and how to apply it to play, you're on your way to stud/8 success. Todd Brunsons section that was recently released in the new Super System II is also very good. Thats about all I will recommend for stud/8. The rest of the works I've read regarding it were flawed enough that you'd have to know what to dismiss while reading it, or it might do more harm than good. Unfortunately for everyone, the section in the original Super System by Sklansky is outdated, as stud-hi-low nowadays is played with an 8 qualifier.

Now on to stud hi. There are three main texts that are a must read if you desire to become proficient at stud hi. Seven card stud for advanced players, Chip Reeses section in the original Super System, and The Theory of Poker. While the latter dosent pertain specifically to stud, you must be deft in all the concepts the book contains to fully excel at stud. From front to back, no matter what form of poker you wish to take up, The Theory of Poker is critical.

Chip Reeses section in the original Super System is fabulous and was the first work I read on stud. It was imo what really redefined how the game was played. Some might says that 7csfap's did that, but that text came out many years later, and really just expands on what Reese said. The entire section is very concise and is only 41 pages in total. But as the author says "what you have here is the Filet Mignon and no fat".

Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players replaced Chip Reeses section on stud as the best work out there when it was released. While the book is specifically tailored to playing in a game with a reasonable ante and bring-in (generally 15-30 and above) it will simply take a small adjustment to apply the context to any game. The simulations in the back of the text are also very valuable. I could go on and on about the book, but suffice it to say its the best out there.

I also feel the need to throw in three books that are never mentioned when discussing works on stud. They are Poker Essays one, two, and three. They all pertain to hold'em and stud and even discuss the correlating concepts between them. In Poker Essays I you might find the chapters "Diffrences Between Stud and Hold'em", and "Common Seven-Card Stud Errors", valuable. In Poker Essays II "Is Stud Harder", "Which way is up", "Psychological Strength", are all great essays. In Poker Essays III "Which Game: Stud or Hold'em", "The Two Types of Stud", "Which is Better", are all great essays as well. In fact the entire text is, I just picked out some of the most useful essays for the stud player.

"Other Stud Works": I wont really recommend any other stud works, even though I have read the vast majority. I will say that 7 Stud 42 lessons by Roy West, Winning Seven Stud by Ashley Adams, and Ken Warrens Big book of Poker, which contains Stud, are all flawed in some sense. If you arent an expert in stud it will be hard to distinguish what parts are flawed, and it will leave a costly aftermath for you when you start to play. I simply picked out these three works as examples because I often hear many stud players on our forums discuss them. There are many more that are flawed that I have read. If anyone needs specific examples of the flawed material that they contain ( or that another specific work on stud contains) I would be happy to elaborate. Until another marvelous work on stud appears, I would simply advise sticking to the ones I recommended.

Mike Emery

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Nice post, thank you.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

I like West's book more than others, although I must admit I've not gone back and looked at in a couple of years now. What I recall liking was that he introduces more sophisticated ideas about hand reading and situational play in a very simple way. I do agree that some of his actual advice on the play of hands is very weak tight and dated.

A good but little known book with general advice on improving your poker game, along with some stud examples, is Stepping Up by Randy Burgess. Disclaimer, he's a friend and my co-author on The Pocket Idiot's Guide to Texas Hold'em and an upcoming book on tells.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some advocate Roy West’s 7 Card Stud: 42 Lessons as a beginner’s book. I cannot agree with this. It is easier to read and understand than 7CS4AP, but there is just too much substandard advice for me to recommend it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, do you recommend anything that is easier to read and understand than 7CS4AP if someone is intent on reading a "beginner's book" first?

WSOP 7Stud Hand v Chau Giang
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some advocate Roy West’s 7 Card Stud: 42 Lessons as a beginner’s book. I cannot agree with this. It is easier to read and understand than 7CS4AP, but there is just too much substandard advice for me to recommend it. To use an example which I have beaten to death, there is a section where he discusses how to play a pair of Kings when someone with an Ace showing raises. If the Kings are split, he advocates folding (which is quite reasonable against many low-limit opponents), but he recommends calling if your Kings are hidden, because of the deceptive value. He goes on to recommend that you fold your Kings on fourth street if you don’t make trips, however. This is a terrible game plan. Assuming that you’re at a full table and your Kings are live, it is 20:1 against your catching trips on fourth street. You aren’t getting anything close to those odds, express, implied, or otherwise. If you are going to fold on fourth street when you don’t make trips, then you should fold on third street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Around the four hour mark. Chau had a monster stack as he'd been catching everything and anything. Chau raises w/an A, I re-raise with K/Kx, Chau calls everybody else folds. One A & K dead. We catch rags, Chau check-raises me on 4th and I fold. Chau nods but doesn't show his hand.

He knocks me out two hours later when I miss my nut flush-gutshot draw, and is quite friendly/respectful when I come back to the tourney area later after dinner.

FWIW despite his huge early stack Chau misses the money, as do Juanda & Chris Grigorian(class guy).

Been awhile since I read Roy's book. Andy's excerpt is just horrendous; I can't defend Roy here(villain may have nut 3flush [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]? f'instance), but IMO it's still a good book.

[ QUOTE ]
I bought Othmer’s book a few years ago and have tried to read it a few times. It is very dense with lots of charts and numbers and things. It may well contain some worthwhile advice, but I find it difficult to read, and I mostly play hold’em these days anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to think of a musical equivalent but can't. Othmar's book is a fascinating browse if you have the time. Maybe, um, your friend's stepmom is very hot but 40lbs overweight and there's no threat of discovery... [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

I'm not sure if this belongs in this thread, but someone made a post about this a while ago, and it seems that in 7CSFAP all we ever read about is "Isolate and raise to get it heads up...Isolate and raise to get it heads up....Isolate and raise to get it heads up" I think this is a fair assessment and makes it a challenging read for a lot of players, and does not really give situational advice for many common occurances when playing hands. How many times is it that someone posts a hand, and aside from his 3rd street action can we say "well, look at what 7CSFAP says about this...." The book is 325 pages long, of which the last 135 pages are made up of question and answers, simulations which could be done on 2 dimes.net and a glossary.. The questions and answers are usually nothing more than a copy of what was already written in the chapter which covered the topic.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Not really. Chip's section in S/S is very good, and it might be an easier read. If you find 7CS4AP that difficult, however, I really don't like your chances of being a winning player.

I haven't gotten the dissenting opinions I was hoping for. Perhaps I have persuaded people that the West book isn't that good after all. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not really. Chip's section in S/S is very good, and it might be an easier read. If you find 7CS4AP that difficult, however, I really don't like your chances of being a winning player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't find 2+2 books difficult, although I admit that I keep them by the bed because I find it fairly easy to fall asleep reading them. Ideally, I would like to read at least 3-4 books on the subject that disagree with each other and trust in my own ability to figure out for myself which book I want to go with in any given spot, or if I want to strike out on my own. I believe that flawed books do have something to offer, both in allowing me to think about why they are wrong and in allowing me to recognized the motivation behind bad play at the tables.

I am in what I think is a very bizarre spot. I play omaha/8. I followed fishy players over to the stud/8 tables and have put a modest win rate based merely on my understanding of general poker theory, later supplemented by the sections in Super System 2 and Ray Zee's split game book. It has become obvious that I win because I am picking on very bad players, but I have problems when there is no low and it devolves into a high-only game against a decent player.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Andy I will disagree with you about West's book. The book has recieved a lot of negative comments here so I generally wouldn't bother to bring the book up. Since you asked:

I think most of the comments about problems with West's book come from very experience players. Try putting yourself in the shoes of someone who has been playing holdem and wants to try stud.

When I decided to learn stud (playing in a friends basement as an 11 year old doesn't count) I picked up Zee's book. With little to no experience I could not make heads or tails of what he was talking about. So I went to the book store, saw West's book and despite the comments I had seen here paid for the book.

I found the book to be an excellent INTRODUCTION for someone who wants to get the basic idea of how the game works and some general info on what to do. The book helped get me into the game and kept me out of trouble during the first few months of playing on line. The book is easy to read, short and is very specific on how to play the various starting hands. This is what a BEGINING player is looking for not a "raise to isolate" theory that doesn't really work on the low limits games begining internet players are playing.

Once I gained experience I went back and read Zee. At that point I understood the flows in the game and was ready to learn more advanced concepts. I believe that when people come to this forum and want information of how to learn the game they will be done a disservice by being told to just read Zee. People need an basic introduction to the game not a dissertation on stud theory.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

In responding to my previous post:

From "High Low Split Poker" page 7 :
"Keep in mind this book is for advanced players"

I don't have my copy of 7CSFAP handy (I'm in the office) but I believe there is a similar quote in the introduction.

This FAQ on books needs to address the needs of all players from people asking "should I play stud?" to those experience players who use "Jedi mind tricks" on their opponents. My worry is that beginers will not learn the basics and then suffer fom Fancy Play Syndrome and loose their bankroll.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

I don't know if you have read this book: How to Beat Low Limit 7 Card Stud Poker by Paul Kammen, but I was thinking about buying it. If you have read please say if there are any flaws. It looks like an easy read and is only 192 pages.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

I haven't read Kammen. I actually saw it for the first time at a bookstore not too long ago. Recently, I've bought HOH2, Big Deal, Greenstein's book, and the Stuey Ungar book, so I wasn't exactly jonesin' to buy another poker book. Moneymaker's book is probably next on my list. The how-to books just aren't as much fun.

Anyway, it seems to me that Mason was less-than-complimentary of Kammen's book.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Hmmm...I guess I'll take his word for it. I've never seen it in my local Borders. Does anyone know of any websites where I can find out the content of this book?

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Reading West is far better than reading no book at all. While the example I cited above is absolutely terrible, most of his advice is at least reasonable. I just think that there is a better approach.

West gets hung up about "quality" and "non-quality" three-flushes. He advocates throwing away the non-quality three-flushes for a raise. If the hand is likely to be heads-up, I agree with him. In my experience, almost all of which is at the lower limits which West is addressing, you're going to have multi-way action even if it's raised on third street. If it's a six-way pot, I'd rather have 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] than K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Since three-flushes are some of the most profitable hands in loose games, I can't endorse a book whose author goes out of his way to find reasons to fold them. If your cards are dead, yes, fold. If your cards are live, though, I'd need a very good reason to fold on third street. Having it raised in front of me usually isn't enough.

There's more but it's nap time.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

some people have reviewed it on Amazon, here.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Yeah...I actually read those, but thanks. I wanted to see what 2+2ers had to say about this book. Andy B says Mason wasn't too fond of this book which makes me want to buy it less.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Just thought I'd add my thoughts on this thread. I found the West book to be very helpful in teaching me to play pretty solid, winning stud. I think that it does what it says on the cover - it teaches people to beat low/middle limit stud games. It isn't designed to help people beat 15/30 and 20/40 games, but it is an effective way for people to learn the basics. I'm sure that there are mistakes in it, such as those mentioned earlier, and that people should move on to 7CSFAP, but it's a good start.

The Kammen book is similar, but with more obvious mistakes and inconsistencies. I don't have it to hand to find specific examples, but I thought that it was clearly inferior to the West book. According to prevailing opinion here, that must make it not very good at all.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

[ QUOTE ]
No matter what form of poker you play, even if it's nine-card blind baseball,

[/ QUOTE ]


Hahaha, thats awesome

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Any comments on Championship Stud by Stern, Johnson, and McEvoy?

Mason rated the Stud section a 1, but gave Razz and Stud8b a 7 rating. Since there is not much material on Razz and Stud8b, this book may be worth adding to the list.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Just some comments

Roy west's book is great as a beginning book. Yes I agree there are a few minor issues such as you have mentioned. However his covereage of psychological aspects,mental preparation, bankroll and particularly hand examples (Which is all the vogue now) were ahead of their time (19I 96)

Reese's stud section I have always found to be the best concise intro to stud. In fact I think it is the best introductory book on stud and great for reference. I also found it interesting that Grrenstein relates that he found it to be the most useful.

SCSAP is to me the definitive theoretical work

Championship stud by Stern & Mcevoy is pretty good. With interesting sections on limiting your loss not win,Temptation hands (KQX spades etc.) Doorcard pairing discussion was long & detailed, Seventh st discussion was 5 long pages with plenty of details. Also another section covers Tournament Stud (One of the few books out there)

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Hello All,

Andy has asked me to make some input on this subject, so here I go....

The poker books of all poker books is The Theory of Poker by Sklansky. It has been since its first publishing, and it still is today..

Now as far as Stud books go, there are only 2 I usually recommend.. and that depends on wether you or a beginner or expereinced player.

For beginners, I always tell people to read the Roy West book. Sure, some of his writings contradict each other, and some of the strategies are outdated.. but I can think of NO other book that is easier reading and more consice for the begining player. It is the first dedicated 7 stud book I ever bought, and I have made a dollar or two over the years. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

FOr the more experienced players, I recommend 7CSFAP ( 21st century edition ).. Although I am having issues with this book now, ONLY beacuse, there are SO FEW games left like the book is modeled for.. ( Tell me how many $15-30 stud games are left in this country.. That would actually be a good other thread.. hmmmm...... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] )

CJ

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

See my commnets. Also the stud section is under rated. There are some detailed discussions of 7th St and pairing of opponents cards

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

I'm too tired to go into much detail but this is my experience. I was a crappy stud player. I bought 7CS4AP and I got a little better (playing 1/2). I decided even though stud was the game I had the most experience with I was stagnated so I played hold em and other games for a while. Then, I discovered Roy Wests' book and it's discussion of 3rd street decisions, tempered by TOP and a re-reading of 7CS4AP helped me get to a point of feeling comfortable in any stud game 10/20 and down. Roy is obviously weak/tight in spots but I'd say it's analagous to Winning Low Limit Hold Em by Lee Jones. That book has helped a lot of players move up thru small stakes games up to big hold em games, regardless of some weak/tight thinking and passive advice. Wests book just helped me to think about the right things on 3rd street.

That being said if I was going to lock someone in a room with a party account and one poker book and then bet on whether they'd be able to teach themselves to beat a stud game or any other game for that matter it would be The Theory of Poker. It is the only indespensable poker book.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

How helpful does everyone think Essays I, II, and III are on their stud game?

PS: Just a warning: If this isn't made a sticky people will keep asking the book question. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Hi Andy,

Any chance we'll recognize any of the hands that are going to be in the book?

Looking forward to it,
BRL

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Assuming I get off of page four, I intend to make liberal use of posted hands.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Only page 4? Hurry up so I can't read it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'm looking forward especially to the stud8 76x bring in section. I've been doing some thinking and I'm begenning to like a completion more than the minimum bring in for many situations. I'm sure bholder and I will be posting lots of these HHs in the future. It's one area that's neglected in HLSP by Zee and I'm sure you'll do a great job of filling that in. That's presuming if you will be covering stud8 at all of course.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

[ QUOTE ]
Only page 4? Hurry up so I can't read it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'm looking forward especially to the stud8 76x bring in section. I've been doing some thinking and I'm begenning to like a completion more than the minimum bring in for many situations. I'm sure bholder and I will be posting lots of these HHs in the future. It's one area that's neglected in HLSP by Zee and I'm sure you'll do a great job of filling that in. That's presuming if you will be covering stud8 at all of course.

[/ QUOTE ]I think he is only covering stud hi. However, a stud/8 and razz book would be nice. I would think the stud hi section would be big on it's own. I actually hope it is only stud hi. I think when Zee made his book split it caused the information to be vague at times, because he tried to cover 2 topics in one book.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Andy, I'm rereading Ed Miller's SSH. I think the concepts in this book could help someone out in stud. Ed's a fantastic author and I think it would be worth it for someone to read this book. For example, I think a lot of Ed's dicsussion on river play is applicable to stud. I have a feeling you probably agree with this.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

I read 'Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players' this year and I can honestly say it has not changed my play very much.

I learned my Stud 'book' knowledge from reading Super System. Then my play evolved from just playing a lot. What Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players did do was help me understand why I play the way I do.

'Theory of Poker' is the same way. If you have been playing with some success for some period of time books probably won't change the way you play very much. But for a someone new it is a great shortcut.

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Regarding the Kammen book .. I haven't read it, but here is the author himself complaining recently that his book was trash at our forums (and in the process we get another beginners book thread into this one)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post4169264

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Hi Gelford:

I just went and read the post you linked. My only comment is that it's a shame.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads
 

Mason,

We know you're busy, but we'd love your input on some of our strategy posts here. There has been some good discussion lately (and don't worry, I won't tell anyone about that hand where you limped with an ace and then folded when a four completed). [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Jeff