The WSOP cards are marked.
 

Folks --

Many observant people at the Rio have noticed that in almost every deck, many of the aces, deuces, threes, fours, and (to a lesser degree) fives through sevens are thumbnail-marked.

I requested several setups and all had the same problems. I could only notice a couple markings from the back, but others could notice many more, and certainly the people doing the marking are sharp at finding them.

Watch out when playing at the Rio. I certainly recommend getting at least your triple draw and Badugi action at the Bellagio.

--Nate

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

Those suckers forgot to mark 8s-Ks.

Hahaha.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

Sounds I like need to be in the split pot events.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

I played 100/200 Badugi and triple draw mix games for the last three days and there were indeed a lot of nailed cards. But here's the thing: it was all the cards! I saw aces, 2s, 8s, kings, everything with a mark at one time or another. They just have a lot of used cards and they got stupid cheap paper ones so they are very noticeable. I didn't think anything shady was going on ever.

-DeathDonkey

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I played 100/200 Badugi and triple draw mix games for the last three days and there were indeed a lot of nailed cards. But here's the thing: it was all the cards! I saw aces, 2s, 8s, kings, everything with a mark at one time or another. They just have a lot of used cards and they got stupid cheap paper ones so they are very noticeable. I didn't think anything shady was going on ever.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there are patterns. Look for which cards are nailed in the center, which are nailed on the edge, and which are nailed 3/4 of the way down a diagonal.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

I think Mortensen or somebody asked for the decks to be changed in the final three tables of (I think) the O8 event. Think there's a connection?

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

I remember hearing something similar to this happening last year during the ME. Some pro complained how all the decks they were using seemed marked. I think it has something to do with the Copags they are using, as correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they use basically the same design last year as well?

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remember hearing something similar to this happening last year during the ME. Some pro complained how all the decks they were using seemed marked. I think it has something to do with the Copags they are using, as correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they use basically the same design last year as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they're the same cards.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

yeah. Just constantly be looking for them, point them out to the dealers and get a replacement card every time. Of course people are cheating, but not much you can do about it, but be vigilant in keeping their edge down to a dozen hands or so.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

They are using Copaq's not paper cards. Take a look at them next time you are there, Copaq is written all over it. I don't even think they paid for the cards... Since Copaq is advertising they are the "Official cards of the WSOP" so I am sure there was some deal cut.

BTW, all the cards were brand new out of the box just a week ago. And have never been machine shuffled. So you can be sure the marks are either manufacturer defects or intentional.

[ QUOTE ]
I played 100/200 Badugi and triple draw mix games for the last three days and there were indeed a lot of nailed cards. But here's the thing: it was all the cards! I saw aces, 2s, 8s, kings, everything with a mark at one time or another. They just have a lot of used cards and they got stupid cheap paper ones so they are very noticeable. I didn't think anything shady was going on ever.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

from cardplayer coverage of the omaha split event

Tue Jul 04 16:57:00 PDT 2006
New Decks
Andy Bloch just asked the floor if they could get 3 new decks for the 3 remaining tables. The floor has just announced thanks to Bloch the tables now are playing with new decks.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

They should get brand new cards for the ME atleast [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

I guess the best thing to do is if you see a card that's marked, demand a new deck.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the best thing to do is if you see a card that's marked, note which card it is, and play on

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

With all the people who don't know how to play the split pot events, it is really hard for me to understand why someone would have to cheat....
I guess any edge......
I just cannot fathom it, sounds like the "old" days of the cash games at the WSOP, only this time, the floor and the dealers are either too green or busy to do anything about it, watch your ass, especially in the Lowball games (cheaters heaven)

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

This is a problem not just with the Copag WSOP cards, but with all Copag cards

(Damn straight I bolded that.)

I have a couple of set-ups of Copag and the material composition is different than that of a Kem or Gemaco or A-Plus card - Copag cards are rather flimsy and are VERY easy to mark just by accident, particularly if you squeeze hard when looking at your hole cards. You'll notice on a lot of marked Copag cards (actually, the 4s through 10s) that on the face side there's usually a white line going through one of the pips.

Here's an example:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...arkedcopag.jpg

The cards sold for home use have predominantly solid colored backs w/design, making it hard to locate the marking from that perspective.

However, the WSOP Copag cards have predominantly white backs (similar to how last year's cards looked), which would and should make the markings much easier to spot.

Really, there's a reason the Copags sell for cheap in retail - they're [censored].

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

Unfortunately, my game is not good enough to spend energy looking for marked cards. As it is, it is difficult enough to watch all of the other players, pay attention to the play of the hand and process/think about my observations between hands. When some of these things become more automatic for me, then I may shift my attention to looking for marks on cards.

So, here's my question:

Is there any specific way that anyone would recommend that I can protect my cards to prevent others from seeing any marks on them. Keep in mind any proposed method must expose the cards enough, so that no one can reasonably object that you are "hiding" you hand and they can't see if you have cards or have folded.

I realize that preventing people from seeing the marks on my cards only solves part of the problem, but it is something that I can easily add to my game.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

people who mark cards watch the cards as they are flung from the dealer's hand. The best defense is really to just watch all the cards and point out when you see a bad one.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

[ QUOTE ]
people who mark cards watch the cards as they are flung from the dealer's hand. The best defense is really to just watch all the cards and point out when you see a bad one.

[/ QUOTE ]

That method doesn't work well in a lowball game (keep in mind the low cards seem to be marked), but its a valid method when looking for aces. I'm interested to see how this affects my game since I'll be playing lots of lowball.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

If I notice someone seems to have marked a card during a hand, when should I alert a floorperson accusing them of cheating?

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

DO NOT PLAY any lowball games with SKILLED cheats
You WILL lose your ass

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

Is this a legit concern?

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a legit concern?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is, but the same thing applies to playing lowball with SKILLED non-cheats. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a problem not just with the Copag WSOP cards, but with all Copag cards

(Damn straight I bolded that.)

I have a couple of set-ups of Copag and the material composition is different than that of a Kem or Gemaco or A-Plus card - Copag cards are rather flimsy and are VERY easy to mark just by accident, particularly if you squeeze hard when looking at your hole cards. You'll notice on a lot of marked Copag cards (actually, the 4s through 10s) that on the face side there's usually a white line going through one of the pips.

Here's an example:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...arkedcopag.jpg

The cards sold for home use have predominantly solid colored backs w/design, making it hard to locate the marking from that perspective.

However, the WSOP Copag cards have predominantly white backs (similar to how last year's cards looked), which would and should make the markings much easier to spot.

Really, there's a reason the Copags sell for cheap in retail - they're [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly true. i have had the same problems with Copags. you get what you pay for. add this to the many other reasons why Harrahs is considered a second rate casino company.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

Do they use shuffling machines at the Rio?

At another casino, I noticed some marked cards and asked for a new deck. In the new deck, I saw more marked cards and asked for another new deck. The dealer spread the whole deck and showed me (and the whole table) that almost every card had at least one corner "marked" and many had all four corners marked. He said the shuffling machine does it, they all have it, all decks, and it really is nothing to worry about.

A new setup arrived at that time, and sure enough, this third deck also had tons and tons of marked cards.

I let it go, covered my own cards well, and had no reason to believe anyone at my table was playing with an unfair advantage, based on results.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

the tables at the WSOP do not have automatic shufflers I'm pretty sure (at least they didn't last year)

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

The WSOP sucks and should be boycotted.

A picture of the card back for those wondering
 

Picture of the 2006 WSOP card on front page

Just for those wondering, who haven't seen, what the back looks like.

As you can see, lots of white, so every little nic will be noticeable. The Copag cards are trash to begin with, going predominantly white was a horrible move and have given the company one hell of a bad name this Series.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

[ QUOTE ]
the tables at the WSOP do not have automatic shufflers I'm pretty sure (at least they didn't last year)

[/ QUOTE ]

No auto shuffler at WSOP, all hand shuffled.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

Hey, I just wanted to say thanks for everyone who posted on this topic. You guys gave some very insightful discussion into the situation and helped me write a column about it to pick up some extra cash(not sure if I'm allowed to link to it, so I'll just let you all find it) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

By the way, just for an update, Jeffrey Pollack has ordered a ton of new cards so there will be much more fresh setups in the future and card marking should (hopefully) no longer be a problem.

Keep up the interesting discussion, 2+2ers!

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, just for an update, Jeffrey Pollack has ordered a ton of new cards so there will be much more fresh setups in the future and card marking should (hopefully) no longer be a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't a problem at all last weekend, I didn't find a single marked card... and I know what to look for. Looks like the floor cleaned up its act, they started to remove marked cards from play. And if there was any game that it would have been prevelent in it was the games I was playing since I played lowball.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

[ QUOTE ]
...The dealer spread the whole deck and showed me... that almost every card had at least one corner "marked"... He said the shuffling machine does it, they all have it, all decks, and it really is nothing to worry about.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure the dealer has nothing to worry about. He wasn't putting his money into the pot, was he?

If the shuffling machine was putting dents of the cards then they should return it to ShuffleMaster and ask for a replacement. If a shuffling machine is putting any dents on the cards that would be the result of a mechanical misalignment. Since all the cards end up through the same system of wheels and pistons then any bends produced by the shuffler would end up in the same spot on every card. This would be reminiscent to the way a malfunctioning photocopier may be reproducing a dot or a scratch on every page of paper, at (more or less) the same place as on any other page that came out of the same photocopier.

However, if the bends and nicks were all over the place then they were not the result of a mechanical malfunction. The question is: were they put there on purpose or accidentally? Now, if all the Aces had the bens in the same place and all the Kings had the bends in another place, and so on, then it is very unlikely that such bends ended up on those cards by accident, conveniently organized to facilitate easy identification of the cards by grouping the bends into several categories.

When cards are marked during a game they could be marked in any number of ways, depending who is marking them and for what purpose (what cheating strategy) and for what game. In lowball (since it is mentioned above) it is very useful to mark all the high cards one way. This way it makes it easier to put someone on a bluff it you know he caught a king. Sometimes this type of minimal information is all that is needed to put get a "good read" on an opponent. In general, when it comes to marked cards, less is more and the simpler the better.

It also greatly depends what kind of cards are in use. For example, some playing card brands (or better say back designs) are very well suited for reading shade work. Those cards are also very well suited for daubing. A small crew of daub players can put the work on a deck in a relatively short time (depending what dame is being played, i.e. How many cards are dealt to each player). Once the work is put on the cards a couple of take-off men sit down an play the work (but there is no evidence of them putting the work on, since they obviously were not the ones who did it). If you are interested in more details feel free to visit the Marked Cards page on my site. But just to mention one more detail, daub can be very powerful because a trained eye can see the work from across the table.

A lot of people handle cards very roughly, so whenever you see kinks and bends you can't know right away if they are there on purpose or totally by accident. The obvious giveaway would be if all the cards of the same value bear the same "accidental" kinks and bends.

Another common method to put work on the cards, during play, is by means of sanding the edges. This work was more popular in times before plastic cards became so widely used. The player would actually come equipped with a small strip of fine sandpaper glued to the inside of a finger. Then he would rub the edge of a card against the sandpaper. This procedure would remove some of the dark dirt that naturally builds up at the edges of paper cards so the marked cards would appear to have lighter spots on their edges. Cards marked in such way can be identified while they are still in the deck (good to know if it will hit the flop, he!) or even if the card lays on the table. This method was widely used to cheat a single-deck blackjack, but it was also used to cheat at poker.

The latest method of marking cards during play is something that I can barely mention but unfortunately I am not at liberty to share any details. However, the work is completely invisible to anyone, but the person who is prepared to read it. The interesting part is that it is also completely invisible even if one told you exactly where to look and what to look for. As I just said, this is actually very new, and there is a detail that I cannot divulge because it would give away clues. But I am not talking about the old contact lenses or any of the other old methods. This is new. And it is definitely a visual method of reading marked cards. Perhaps at some time in the future I will be able to say a little bit more about it.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

FYI This thread is over a year old and the post above this bumped it.

Not sure if it happened again this year or not.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

cardshark, I read about your super secret new card marking method. I googled it.

Re: The WSOP cards are marked.
 

it's this one, isn't it??

[ QUOTE ]
Microchips embedded in the cards that say the card's name out loud when activated, but say it in such a high pitch that it can't be heard by humans but is easily identified by the magician's dog.

[/ QUOTE ]