55 in BB
 

5 limpers including the SB to me. I raise red 55 and all call. Flop comes KsJs4c. Small blind checks, and I check intending to fold. Thoughts?

Re: 55 in BB
 

Standard.

Re: 55 in BB
 

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Standard.

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not at all, but i don't think it's bad.

Re: 55 in BB
 

Perfect.

Re: 55 in BB
 

i'm reading that as 4 limpers and a complete, correct? i'd raise small pairs in that situation around a 1/3 of the time.

flop play is check/fold because the 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] isn't clean.

Re: 55 in BB
 

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i'm reading that as 4 limpers and a complete, correct? i'd raise small pairs in that situation around a 1/3 of the time.

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Why?

Re: 55 in BB
 

preflop whatever. flop fine.

Re: 55 in BB
 

That preflop raise is not typical for me. I think I was steaming a bit. I was kind of curious if anyone wanted a continuation bet or any continuation for that matter. The reason I remember the hand (probably) is because the flop got checked thru and I bet the turn King (2 callers) and river King (1 caller, board KJ4KK) and mhwg.

Re: 55 in BB
 

You got lucky that your hand held up vs. this many limpers. Nice hand.

Re: 55 in BB
 

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Standard.

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Perfect.

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preflop whatever.

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Really?

I'm not convinced you can routinely make up the lost equity from your raise preflop. I'm not convinced enough hands actually get played differently postflop to our advantage to make up the lost bets.

I don't think it's that bad but I do think it's slightly -EV. But everyone disagree's with me, so what am I missing?

Re: 55 in BB
 

just to clafify my comment was more in the lines of, i don't think it matters really much so whatever.

Re: 55 in BB
 

So you don't think it's a small mistake, but actually borderline? Do you really think you make up the lost equity postflop?

Re: 55 in BB
 

Agree w/ CDC, preflop doesn't really matter. I will say I like it better from the cutoff or button. A continuation bet on a KJ suited flop against 5 limpers would be foolhardy. You will at least be called in a minimum of 2 spots.

Re: 55 in BB
 

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I don't think it's that bad but I do think it's slightly -EV.

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Why?

Re: 55 in BB
 

OK, OK it's borderline!

Duh, I was thinking, hmmmn.... we are getting 1:5 on a 1:7.5 shot -- not too good.

But of course, it's only a fraction of a SB we are giving up. So I worked it out at 1/3 of a SB in lost equity. Correct?

I'm still not convinced we can regain this OOP, but it must be close when considering tying people to the pot, the occasions we get a free card OOP, future image, deception etc.

Re: 55 in BB
 

It is very positive EV on set value alone (and then there is always the chance of winning it unimproved).

You are investing an additional SB and building a pot that has 11SB (not including the one you just put in). 6SB are already in the pot and 5 more will go in with your raise. Beware of a player known to LRR UTG though as that will destroy your odds.

11 to 1 for a 8 to 1 shot!

Re: 55 in BB
 

Those 6SB already in the pot don't count on your raise though!!!!

You get 5 to 1 money on your raise, which is a 7.5 to 1 shot. We get 5 more bets in the pot, which we will "win" 1 in 7.5.

1/7.5 x 5 = 2/3. So we have equity of 2/3 of a SB on a raise of 1SB. So we are giving up 1/3rd of a SB by raising. That's how I see it anyhow....

Re: 55 in BB
 

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That preflop raise is not typical for me. I think I was steaming a bit. I was kind of curious if anyone wanted a continuation bet or any continuation for that matter. The reason I remember the hand (probably) is because the flop got checked thru and I bet the turn King (2 callers) and river King (1 caller, board KJ4KK) and mhwg.

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I don't raise this often online because the player pools are so big that the value in having them remember it is reduced, as well as the fact that there really isn't much one can do to tie them more to the pot.

In live games, like what used to exist in NYC, where everyone knew everyone, it's a different story.

Nice hand. Good river bet.

Re: 55 in BB
 

If there were two limpers and a button raise, calling with 55 from the BB is profitable, right?

Re: 55 in BB
 

of course..... and calling in your example is more profitable than 3-betting, which may still show a profit, but not as much as calling...... uggh I'm confusing now but you get the point!

Anyway, I agree with you that the fact of being live versus online may make enough difference to swing the original example.

Re: 55 in BB
 

To my opinion this is not a raise, this is a call. When you are on the button I agree with the raise.

And I don't understand the logic 11 to 1 for a 8 to 1 shot. It's never correct to raise negative EV to have positive EV when the next card comes.

Would all of you raise this hand in the BB? I am very curious because I would say this is just a call and raise for your table image.

Re: 55 in BB
 

One problem with this raise is that you are giving flush draws the correct odds to continue till the end..

Re: 55 in BB
 

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One problem with this raise is that you are giving flush draws the correct odds to continue till the end..

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they have it anyway. you might be concerned about pricing in a gutshot or other draw, but flush draws will be there regardless.

you don't need to collect from everyone when you hit to make it better than 5:1. it's likely that you're getting multiple small and big bets from whoever is in.

Re: 55 in BB
 

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One problem with this raise is that you are giving flush draws the correct odds to continue till the end..

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I think there are a couple of problems with this raise that haven't been mentioned yet.

Firstly is what happens when you don't flop a set, but like the flop reasonably well. This would consist of flops like 742r and 882r. I don't know how often this sort of flop comes up, but I suspect you'll get them about as often as you flop a set. And it's ENORMOUSLY important when you have the best hand on this board that you don't encourage people to draw to overcards.

The second problem is that you may somewhat deaden your action if you flop a set, because opponents will have to fear that you have a big overpair. For example, say that the board is J85. You lead out, and an opponent with AJ raises. Now you 3-bet. A good opponent should just shut down and get to showdown at that point, because a big overpair (or JJ) is a huge part of your range. On the other hand, without the preflop raise, TPTK would probably be inclined to get another raise or two in along the way.

Re: 55 in BB
 

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1/7.5 x 5 = 2/3. So we have equity of 2/3 of a SB on a raise of 1SB. So we are giving up 1/3rd of a SB by raising. That's how I see it anyhow....

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And you won't win the showdown everytime you flop a set.

Re: 55 in BB
 

u raise 55 in the BB? y? U will miss this flop very very often. U check and see a free flop and hope to hit a set.

Re: 55 in BB
 

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1/7.5 x 5 = 2/3. So we have equity of 2/3 of a SB on a raise of 1SB. So we are giving up 1/3rd of a SB by raising. That's how I see it anyhow....

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And you won't win the showdown everytime you flop a set.

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I think that's offset by the times you'll win unimproved or with some odd one-card straight.

Re: 55 in BB
 

I agree with you Nate tha' Great. So the conclusion should be that this is not a raise?