Fliiper is back
 

Dec 2003:

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"I fear that in the run-up to the 2004 election the administration is considering what is tantamount to a cut-and-run strategy,"

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Last week the Senate voted 93-6 to put aside an amendment from Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, the Democrats' 2004 presidential candidate, to withdraw U.S. forces by the end of this year.



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I suppose the kool-aid crowd will try and argue that a fixed deadline for withdrawal isn't "tantamount to cut-and-run" but it clearly is.

Re: Fliiper is back
 

Wow, doublespeak from a politician! Clearly this is only endemic of the left, correct?

Who's drinking kool-aid?

Re: Fliiper is back
 

I don't see the point of this post. Are you arguing that John Kerry is at all relevant and therefore he shouldn't be ignored?

On an aside, do you feel like we "cut and ran" from Viet Nam?

Re: Fliiper is back
 

George Bush, October 11, 2000:

"I am worried about over-committing our military around the world. I want to be judicious in its use. I don’t think nation-building missions are worthwhile."

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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George Bush, October 11, 2000:

"I am worried about over-committing our military around the world. I want to be judicious in its use. I don’t think nation-building missions are worthwhile."

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9/11/01: His worldview changed abruptly, rightly or wrongly.

Re: Fliiper is back
 

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say that his worldview did indeed change. Isn't it possible that Kerry's has too?

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say that his worldview did indeed change. Isn't it possible that Kerry's has too?

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Yes, but his series of flip-flops appear more like political expediency. His motivation this time around? The '08 nomination if things do not improve over there.

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say that his worldview did indeed change. Isn't it possible that Kerry's has too?

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What major event has there been since the 2004 campaign that is big enough to change his worldview?

Re Bush, even without a possible change in view as a result of 9/11, the comment assumes he is "nation building" without any support

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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I don't see the point of this post. Are you arguing that John Kerry is at all relevant and therefore he shouldn't be ignored?

On an aside, do you feel like we "cut and ran" from Viet Nam?

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I dont think any of the far left in the democratic party can be ignored right now. If Soros and the other major contributors think Shrillary is actually too centrist in her beliefs (rather than faking it for the election) then Kerry can indeed be relevant. (Ok, maybe its wishful thinking)

Did we cut anf run from Vietnam? Absolutely. The military wanted to finish the war they were winning. Politics at home led to premature withdrawal. Thats what "cut and run" means to me, anyway.

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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What major event has there been since the 2004 campaign that is big enough to change his worldview?

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The fact that yet another two years have gone by, and the only thing thats really changed in Iraq in those two years is the body count?

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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What major event has there been since the 2004 campaign that is big enough to change his worldview?

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The fact that yet another two years have gone by, and the only thing thats really changed in Iraq in those two years is the body count?

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you mean the only thing that you read about in the NYT thats really changed is the body count.

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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Did we cut anf run from Vietnam? Absolutely. The military wanted to finish the war they were winning. Politics at home led to premature withdrawal. Thats what "cut and run" means to me, anyway.

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Thank you for answering.

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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you mean the only thing that you read about in the NYT thats really changed is the body count.

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And you think that it shouldn't be reported? I often hear people say that the reporting should be more positive out of Iraq, but think about this. Take this month for instance: 699 Iraqi civilians and security forces have died and 42 US soldiers have died. That's 2 soldiers a day and 30 Iraqis dying a day. Now, imagine that this was happening in New York City or somewhere close to home. Do you think your local newspaper, or any responsible journalist, is going to report on a school being built down the street, or anything else very positive, when that many people are dying a day? Journalists are supposed to report the news, and when they do that they have to decide what is newsworthy. A school being built, new sewage lines being put in, or whatever positive news coverage some people call for is not news worthy when that many people are dying every day.

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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you mean the only thing that you read about in the NYT thats really changed is the body count.

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And you think that it shouldn't be reported? I often hear people say that the reporting should be more positive out of Iraq, but think about this. Take this month for instance: 699 Iraqi civilians and security forces have died and 42 US soldiers have died. That's 2 soldiers a day and 30 Iraqis dying a day. Now, imagine that this was happening in New York City or somewhere close to home. Do you think your local newspaper, or any responsible journalist, is going to report on a school being built down the street, or anything else very positive, when that many people are dying a day? Journalists are supposed to report the news, and when they do that they have to decide what is newsworthy. A school being built, new sewage lines being put in, or whatever positive news coverage some people call for is not news worthy when that many people are dying every day.

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Assuming you aren't kidding, I think the difference is clear. One expects casualties in a war torn country, and they don't in New York. So, yeah, that many casualties in NY would certainly be news. Daily infrastucture enhancements to a war torn country are more newsworthy than the same or similar enhancement in New York. To me that means that we should see more stories about schools, hospitals, wetland restoration, and other infrastucture news ... but we don't outside the conservative media.

From a journalists perspective, I can see why both would be newsworthy in Iraq. Unfortunately, the mainstream media seems to focus on only/mostly the negative. While I am inclined to believe that some/much of this is due to poliical bias, I am also willing to concede it is also part of our culture where bad news seems to be something we want to hear more than good news. Proof? Turn on your nightly news.

NCAces

Re: Fliiper is back
 

You are misinformed.

I am so tired of hearing about all the "good" that is not being reported. Sure, there is some, but it ios generally inconsequential.

Why?

Because 3 years after major combat operations ended, it is still unsafe for an American vehicle to travel outside the heavily fortified areas without an armed convoy. There is no security in Iraq for the most powerful military in the world to operate unimpeded, let alone your average Iraqi who would speak out against insurgents.

I work for the Dept of Defense and see the intel and the stories of friends who have gone over. The situation is a mess--this isn't a fabrication of the NYT. In fact, it is worse than that reported in the mainstream media in my opinion, because the fact that 2 soldiers a day are getting killed IS A HUGE NEWS STORY.

You keep using the tired GOP line that 2 casualties/day is minor for a war--but the major conflict ended 3 years ago. This is 2 soldiers and 30 civilians per day in a supposedly US/Iraqi-led nation with its own government and security and supposedly on path to a free and secure existence. This is supposed to be the peace--the steady state! And yet, its essentially regressing into a broken state like the former Afghanistan--THIS IS NEWSWORTHY. Build all the sewer lines you want, but if you can't maintain security and order, it will be in vain. With US presence we cannot maintain peace and security, without US presence we cannot maintain peace and security--this is your great victory that should be reported????

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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I am so tired of hearing about all the "good" that is not being reported. Sure, there is some, but it ios generally inconsequential.


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It is your opinion that it is inconsequential. It is not inconsequential in the minds of 3 soldiers (2 sons and a daughter of friends of mine) who were stationed in Iraq.

The NYT is as virulently anti-Bush and anti-War as it gets. Their failure to report the good and let their readers decide if its inconsequential is just more evidence of that.

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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I am so tired of hearing about all the "good" that is not being reported. Sure, there is some, but it ios generally inconsequential.


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It is your opinion that it is inconsequential. It is not inconsequential in the minds of 3 soldiers (2 sons and a daughter of friends of mine) who were stationed in Iraq.

The NYT is as virulently anti-Bush and anti-War as it gets. Their failure to report the good and let their readers decide if its inconsequential is just more evidence of that.

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You neglected the entire "why" part of my post.

New schools won't matter if there is no peace and security, and right now Americans are behind 15' walls in armored vehicles and full body armor 3 years after majhor conflict ended. This is not progress.

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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I am so tired of hearing about all the "good" that is not being reported. Sure, there is some, but it ios generally inconsequential.


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It is your opinion that it is inconsequential. It is not inconsequential in the minds of 3 soldiers (2 sons and a daughter of friends of mine) who were stationed in Iraq.

The NYT is as virulently anti-Bush and anti-War as it gets. Their failure to report the good and let their readers decide if its inconsequential is just more evidence of that.

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You neglected the entire "why" part of my post.

New schools won't matter if there is no peace and security, and right now Americans are behind 15' walls in armored vehicles and full body armor 3 years after majhor conflict ended. This is not progress.

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I didnt neglect it, I disagreed with it.

Re: Fliiper is back
 

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You are misinformed.

I am so tired of hearing about all the "good" that is not being reported. Sure, there is some, but it ios generally inconsequential.

Why?

Because 3 years after major combat operations ended, it is still unsafe for an American vehicle to travel outside the heavily fortified areas without an armed convoy. There is no security in Iraq for the most powerful military in the world to operate unimpeded, let alone your average Iraqi who would speak out against insurgents.

I work for the Dept of Defense and see the intel and the stories of friends who have gone over. The situation is a mess--this isn't a fabrication of the NYT. In fact, it is worse than that reported in the mainstream media in my opinion, because the fact that 2 soldiers a day are getting killed IS A HUGE NEWS STORY.

You keep using the tired GOP line that 2 casualties/day is minor for a war--but the major conflict ended 3 years ago. This is 2 soldiers and 30 civilians per day in a supposedly US/Iraqi-led nation with its own government and security and supposedly on path to a free and secure existence. This is supposed to be the peace--the steady state! And yet, its essentially regressing into a broken state like the former Afghanistan--THIS IS NEWSWORTHY. Build all the sewer lines you want, but if you can't maintain security and order, it will be in vain. With US presence we cannot maintain peace and security, without US presence we cannot maintain peace and security--this is your great victory that should be reported????

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Imagine that, war is tough. Who'd a thunk it. You mean it isn't over when you get to the last level ... oh, wait, that's in video games. Don't mean to be so sarcastic, but I find people who want it to end suddenly don't understand that war is tough, people die, bad things happen. But, putting aside whether we should have gone there in the first place, what alternative do we have? We have to finish the job if that can be done.

Listen, I didnt' say that reporting on the deaths and the bad parts of the war was not appropriate. Clearly it is. What I did say is that there is a lot of positive that goes unreported.

You work for DOD and have intel ... how can I argue with that? All I can say is that I have heard stories from soliers that come back (just spent 3 days at Ft. Bragg over Memorial Day) who tell me things that don't agree with your assessment, and who don't like the daily drumbeat of negative. And, all the ones I talked to were ready to go back.

NCAces