the limp reraise
 

i am sexy, so occasionally i do some things that are sexy. there were some spazztards in this game, so i thought i'd teach them a lesson. SB is not a spazz from what i have seen. he is 22/6 in 50 hands.

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (15SB, 5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">SB 3-bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (14.5BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (20.5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, Hero folds.


what don't you like?

Re: the limp reraise
 

I'd have a hard time laying this hand on river, to one bet in a huge pot. How aggressive is SB postflop? Does the river change anything? What are you putting him on, here?

Not sure I like preflop. If you had raised - had they all coldcalled? Limp-reraise traps so many players preflop, and I don't like to play KK oop in a multiway pot.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have a hard time laying this hand on river, to one bet in a huge pot. How aggressive is SB postflop? Does the river change anything? What are you putting him on, here?

Not sure I like preflop. If you had raised - had they all coldcalled? Limp-reraise traps so many players preflop, and I don't like to play KK oop in a multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

i will play KK for lots of bets with lots of players in any seat you like.

edit: and "no", the river didn't change anything, which means my hand didn't improve and i am cooked.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I like preflop. If you had raised - had they all coldcalled? Limp-reraise traps so many players preflop, and I don't like to play KK oop in a multiway pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

there are lots of reasons not to limp rr. this is not one of them.

peace

john nickle

Re: the limp reraise
 

I probably take SB seriously when he leads the turn and start just calling there. The flop check/3-bet is already scary, and he led the turn despite your invitation (with your cap) to check-call instead.

So unless he's got specifically 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or is just getting into the spirit of the table, it's looking like a set. (Two pair isn't so likely on this board, although he may like playing 96s in particular or something.)

I suppose a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is possible, and, yeah, raising would be great if you happen to be ahead (especially with Button still in the hand) of, say, SB's TT. But it looks like you're probably not ahead.

I don't know. It seems like SB should be taking your limp-reraise pretty seriously by now. So I'd be thinking Button is not such a big concern anymore, because I'm too worried about SB, and I'd be looking to get to showdown.

Also, paying 3 bets on the big streets only to end up folding on the river in a huge pot is not something I like to do if I can help it. It's hard to know you're toast with an overpair with over 95 percent certainty against just one player at a Party 6-max table, particularly when the table has been getting wild.

Re: the limp reraise
 

I would call down from the turn lead as well. You showed ridiculous strength PF and on the flop. There's something to be said for protecting your hand against button in a pot that huge, but not if it means folding to further aggression UI, IMO. Not that the river fold is terrible, but I like taking the showdown route here.

Re: the limp reraise
 

You're getting 21.5:1 on the river so I don't see folding as an option as you only need to be good around 5% of the time. He'll have something stupid that you're beating 5%.

As far as the limp re-raise is concerned from everything I've read this is a full-ring strategy that isn't really applicable in 6 max, at least with a hand like kings in this situation. I just don't see the advantage of making this play over an open raise.

Also, I don't see the value in raising again on the turn after a solid player leads into your cap and you LRR pf (which screams to everyone OP given this board texture). You can't really get away from the hand given the pot size and he's taking you to 3town w/ 2p or better too often.

Re: the limp reraise
 

I don't like the turn raise, looks like you are screwed. I'd just call down.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I like preflop. If you had raised - had they all coldcalled? Limp-reraise traps so many players preflop, and I don't like to play KK oop in a multiway pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

there are lots of reasons not to limp rr. this is not one of them.

peace

john nickle

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? I think that is precisely the reason not to LRR. I hate LRR for exactl that.

And I don't fold this getting 20:1 on the river. Pot is just too big. Is he betting a worse hand 1 time in 20?

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I like preflop. If you had raised - had they all coldcalled? Limp-reraise traps so many players preflop, and I don't like to play KK oop in a multiway pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

there are lots of reasons not to limp rr. this is not one of them.

peace

john nickle

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? I think that is precisely the reason not to LRR. I hate LRR for exactl that.

And I don't fold this getting 20:1 on the river. Pot is just too big. Is he betting a worse hand 1 time in 20?

[/ QUOTE ]


KK still has a big enough equity advantage vs 3-4 players that putting in as many bets as you can OOP pf is still the right play. That's why it's not a reason to not LRR.

Re: the limp reraise
 

Given the description of villain and the way the hand played out, I don't think there's a 1 in 21 chance we have the best hand on the river, but I'd still call.

Like several people mentioned, I'd go into call down on the turn.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]

KK still has a big enough equity advantage vs 3-4 players that putting in as many bets as you can OOP pf is still the right play. That's why it's not a reason to not LRR.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the preflop equity diminished pretty much in a 4-6 way pot because it's very easy to put in a lot of bets when you're behind, especially OOP.

Anyways, this is the third post telling me this is NOT one of the reasons not to LRR preflop, without even hinting towards what would be a valid reason.

I can accept the fact that I'm horribly wrong, but still I'd appreciate an explanation...

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
KK still has a big enough equity advantage vs 3-4 players that putting in as many bets as you can OOP pf is still the right play. That's why it's not a reason to not LRR.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is correct to put as many bets in PF as possible with KK from any position. I will agree with that. I think the issue is not to LRR and just raise for protection.

However, I do not think it is a good idea to LRR as stated above because we're basically letting others into the pot and trapping them with the LRR. As the other poster said, we're playing KK OOP in a multiway pot when maybe we didn't have to.

Re: the limp reraise
 

You don't raise KK preflop for protection.

Jesus.

Also I can't help but wonder if the "don't raise the turn" responses are results-oriented.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

KK still has a big enough equity advantage vs 3-4 players that putting in as many bets as you can OOP pf is still the right play. That's why it's not a reason to not LRR.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the preflop equity diminished pretty much in a 4-6 way pot because it's very easy to put in a lot of bets when you're behind, especially OOP.

Anyways, this is the third post telling me this is NOT one of the reasons not to LRR preflop, without even hinting towards what would be a valid reason.

I can accept the fact that I'm horribly wrong, but still I'd appreciate an explanation...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok here's why. VS. 3 random hands your equity is roughly 58%. Your position doesn't have any effect on your equity, position has VALUE but doesn't change your equity edge in the slightest. You're putting in 1/4th the pot in order to win 58% of the time, which is an enormous edge, this is why it doesn't matter if we're LRRing OOP.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd have a hard time laying this hand on river, to one bet in a huge pot. How aggressive is SB postflop? Does the river change anything? What are you putting him on, here?

Not sure I like preflop. If you had raised - had they all coldcalled? Limp-reraise traps so many players preflop, and I don't like to play KK oop in a multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

i will play KK for lots of bets with lots of players in any seat you like.

edit: and "no", the river didn't change anything, which means my hand didn't improve and i am cooked.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you're going to fold the river UI, wouldn't it be best to just fold to the turn raise? I can't see us having odds to draw to 2 outs if we know we're beat on the turn, unless we're considering any two pair as partial outs.

Or unless that ace really DOES change things for us.

Re: the limp reraise
 

I call the river in this big pot getting 21.5 to 1 HU. I hope to catch SB w/ a busted flush draw (maybe making a pair of Qs) &gt;4.5% of the time.

-Caddy

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok here's why. VS. 3 random hands your equity is roughly 58%. Your position doesn't have any effect on your equity, position has VALUE but doesn't change your equity edge in the slightest. You're putting in 1/4th the pot in order to win 58% of the time, which is an enormous edge, this is why it doesn't matter if we're LRRing OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough.
I probably mixed up some terms. I can see your point about the equity, though.

What I meant was more like,
LRR might trap some mediocre hands that otherwise would have folded, but now makes it to the flop and could make a better hand than us - which can be hard to avoid paying off OOP. My question is then:

Will the extra SBs you get from a few mediocre hands preflop make up for the times you pay off a bad hand that got lucky?

Also, are there any other reasons NOT to LRR preflop than the chance that you get fewer bets preflop (worst case: family limp)?

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't raise KK preflop for protection.

Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you raise KK preflop for value. Protection is an added benefit especially OOP. If the CO would have three bet behind us, maybe that would have forced rocky SB out of the hand. A raise can have more than one use.

Jesus.

I understand what everyone is saying about the equity edge but is our edge really 58% against 3 random hands? That sounds pretty high. Sounds ridiculously high actually.

Re: the limp reraise
 

Who cares, I want the SB in the hand. Only hand I don't want him to have is AA and nothing is going to make him fold it.

Re: the limp reraise
 

KK against 3 random hands is indeed 58 vs. 14 vs. 14 vs. 14, but it is a little misleading since there's a big difference between a 40% loose guy and a 100% loose one

Re: the limp reraise
 

KK against 3 ranges of the top 35% of hands retains 54% equity while only contributing 25% of the money.

AKo only has 34%. KK rulez.

Re: the limp reraise
 

I guess I can see it from the math perspective. I keep coming back to what the other poster said:

[ QUOTE ]
Will the extra SBs you get from a few mediocre hands preflop make up for the times you pay off a bad hand that got lucky?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just know every single time I pull something like this, a hand that I might have had a chance to force out earlier by raising hangs around to suck out.

Re: the limp reraise
 

You will lose pots more often when more people come along. But you will win more money in the long run because the pots you do win will be bigger.

(Assuming that we don't get a family limp)

Re: the limp reraise
 

Limp reraising is Bush league.

Re: the limp reraise
 

What are you putting the SB on when he check three bets the whole field after you limp re raised. He's saying he can beat AA when he does that, or, that he has a huge draw.

When he leads the turn, and three bets the turn, he has a set every time here.

I was going to say you should fold to the three bet, but then again, I didn't count the pot down, so you might be getting like 19-1, so you can call and try to spike a K and win 2 BB on the riv.

If you aren't getting 19-1 to call teh three bet, fold the turn.

I'd just call down from the turn lead, this guy is a 22/6, not a 35/22/4

Re: the limp reraise
 

Three reasons I limp reraise w/ KK UTG:

a) A maniac behind me just lost a huge pot.
b) My last 2-3 showdowns were with premium cards and my raises are now overly respected.
c) Both kings are black.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]

c) Both kings are black.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://adekerma.free.fr/Affiche/Passenger%2057.gif

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought the preflop equity diminished pretty much in a 4-6 way pot because it's very easy to put in a lot of bets when you're behind, especially OOP.

[/ QUOTE ] VS. 3 random hands your equity is roughly 58%. You're putting in 1/4th the pot in order to win 58% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]
58%-25% = 33% to your benefit. 33% x 4 bets = 1.33 bets. Therefore you make 1.33 bets for every bet you place.

If you have a family pot, you have only 42% equity but your only putting in 17% so you have only a 25% benefit. But that's 25% of 6 bets which is 1.5 bets so you make 1.5 bets for every bet you place.

Does that make sense? Is that the right way to calculate it?

NOTES:
42% Equity was based on 5 opponents who play 20, 25, 30, 40, and 45% of their hands.

I changed the 40% player to 55% and KK equity dropped about .5%. Then I changed 45% player to 60% and KK equity dropped another .5% to 40.8%. Not much different.

Then I changed the two loosest players to 25% players making the five opponents 20, 25, 25, 25, and 30%. KK equity was back to 42%. It doesn't seem to change much.

I tried making the tighest players even tighter. I used 15%, 20, 25, 25 and 30. KK Equity was still over 41%. Again, it didn't change much.

Re: the limp reraise
 

Raise the river girly man.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the river girly man.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are joking right?

The SB is never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever fold here.

He either has a set (90%) of the time, or Queens up.

He's never folding. He probably won't 3bet you with a set, because if a TAG plays a hand like this, and raises the river, he will have AA always.

A river raise ehre would be mega retarded.

Also, to the OP, I hate the flop cap. You know when he check/3bets what his range is. Why are you capping? If you cap, if he has a draw, he will just check call the turn. this = no protection. If he has a set, and you smooth call the 3bet, he will lead the turn, you raise, he 3bets, you fold.


And to all those ppl saying "call the river, it's 20-1" You are failing to realize that if the OP doesn't haev odds to spike a K on the river, he should fold the turn. The only reason to call the turn is to conterfeit a lower set. Calling this river is almost as bad as raising this river.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling this river is almost as bad as raising this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's not get carried away [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. Raising the river is far worse.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling this river is almost as bad as raising this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's not get carried away [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. Raising the river is far worse.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think that calling is that bad here. I'm almost going to fold the turn even getting 19-1. You are going to hit a K 1-22ish times. So you need to make up 3BB on the river.

You know you are getting at least 2. So it's close. Just in case the guy has a completely retarded two pair hand, or a two pair + flush hand, I'd call the turn. But, the way I'd play it, I'd only be getting 15-1 when I got three bet on the turn, so it's an easy fold for me.

folding is good.

calling is very bad.

I can't even think of an adjective for raising this river. If you really want to raise this river, just give 2BB of your limit to the red cross or something, at least it will do something.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
calling is very bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not so awful. It's one bet.

And I'm going to argue it's not even that. We're almost always beat on the river. I know that. Villain has a set here nearly always. He's not going to be playing a hand like JJ like the nuts very often at all.

But we have 50 hands on the guy and he's played a little over 10 of them. We're at a wild table, and the craziness can become contagious. Giving Villain a hand like 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] based on all of the action up until the river is possible, even if unlikely. Competing with that, we have 9 set combos that are the main thing we're worried about, along with (I guess) A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and Q9o, I suppose.

Anyway, I don't fold overpairs heads-up on the river getting 21:1. I just don't. Possibly this is a leak. Fortunately, though, the situation doesn't come up much.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
there were some spazztards in this game, so i thought i'd teach them a lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really really really really really dumb to teach spaztards not to be spaztards.

--Dave.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, to the OP, I hate the flop cap. You know when he check/3bets what his range is. Why are you capping? If you cap, if he has a draw, he will just check call the turn. this = no protection. If he has a set, and you smooth call the 3bet, he will lead the turn, you raise, he 3bets, you fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line has its merits, but there is a trade-off going on here. We get better protection if SB has a draw or worse made hand (I'm not ruling that out -- certainly not yet) at the cost of paying two BBs on the turn to "learn" that SB has the set we suspected all along and dump our own set outs, which will be worth over 1/2 of a BB at the time we're folding. Also, a Q is not always going to fall on the turn. We're going to have to consider more seriously a very aggressively played worse overpair on a lot of turns. Furthermore, with a big draw, or even a worse made hand, SB will not always bet again on the turn after his flop check/3-bet got three callers.

We can't get perfect information in this hand. Sometimes you just have to make a judgment call regarding when you don't have an edge anymore and start getting yourself to showdown knowing that you're most likely beat but aren't always.

I don't really know what the best postflop line in this hand is, though. Probably at the table I would have played it like PBob on the flop but then would have just called the turn.

Re: the limp reraise
 

I just call the flop C/3-bet by SB and then raise any non [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], non A, turn. I want to make sure I get a chance to face the draws with two cold on the turn.

The way it was played I don't like the turn raise and I make the 21:1 call on the river because at least once I will see a busted draw here....or at least I tell myself that.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there were some spazztards in this game, so i thought i'd teach them a lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really really really really really dumb to teach spaztards not to be spaztards.

--Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, depending on the PFCC% in your game and the PFRR%, it may be best to PFLRR. You shouldn't do it often, though, because they'll remember you making this play in the future, and if you over-use this they'll correctly adjust their play and you're screwwed. Regardless, you're going to have a tough time in the future when you raise, because they'll think you won't have a premium pocket. Now, if you go back to normal play, they'll sometimes be wrong, but they'll most often be correct. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Given that the SB called two cold with those stats and gave action like that, I'm assuming that he has a set rather than 2pr. I'm also assuming that he will be just calling a river raise on an ace or king if you SNG him.

If this is true, just fold to the turn three-bet, I think. However, I haven't crunched the #'s on this. Basically I think the river is -EV and that he has a set. If you reduce him having a set to only like 80%, then it may be closer to a call, but I'm still not sure how much the river affects things.

To be 100% honest, I don't mind just calling the turn and river. SB has to be aware by this point that you limp reraised, which, given your action, is either AKs hearts or AA, KK. It sucks to turn your cards up then bet 5bb against a good player. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

If this were a live game (or he was single-tabling) and you knew that he was a really good player, just fold to his first turn bet. If he puts you on AKs hearts, AA, KK, then he knows that there's a 12:1 chance that you have AA/KK, and he still bet.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I like preflop... I don't like to play KK oop in a multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're reading SSHE, which is cool. Take another look at the section where it discusses the different starting hands.

Re: the limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't raise KK preflop for protection.

Jesus.

Also I can't help but wonder if the "don't raise the turn" responses are results-oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

If by results-oriented you mean "based on the results of previous action in the hand" then yes, they are results oriented.