I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

Just sat down. Stats said this was the only loose table at my level, so I took it. Nearly all unknowns for me. I have no read at all on villain. Button is a TAG, who plays a bit tighter than I do. I've only seen a couple of hands and nothing in them to give me much of a clue.

I suspect I went badly wrong here but villain was the only guy at the flop who hadn't shown any PF aggression (although I figured the capper could just be messing around). So I thought he might have a set here, or something demented like 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

So I went WA/WB, sort of. My plan was call the 3-bet, call bets on turn and river, bet if he checked and it looked safe or I improved.

Thoughts on all streets very welcome.


PokerRoom 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 (Villain) calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 (Villain) calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 caps</font>, MP2 folds, Button folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 (Villain) calls.

Check out the cap. I'm thinking he's saying "you want three, I say FOUR, BEEATCH".

I'm wondering, should button fold here? He has position and he put in the first raise. Can he call another two with KTs?

Flop: (16 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villain 3-bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

Button may have had a hand like AJo or KQo. In this spot when its 2 bets back to him it is pretty similar to cold calling a raise. However, pot is big and he has position.

As for the hand I cap flop and lead turn then I slow down if raised on turn.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

*grunch*

the only hand you can really put villain on is a pair (and he hit his set) or an OESD (or a flush draw but I think he would have checked the river otherwise), I probably would have capped flop and taken the same line on other streets.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

Ya, WA/WB is right. I play exactly the same here. You're more likely ahead here I think but you know what they say about microlimits: "If it looks like AA and it smells like AA, it very well could be K2o". Seriously though, villains range is probably JJ+, AK - you're more often good than not, but c/c is the way to go IMO.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

Bet out on the flop Villian may raise and force utg with 2 cold. Oh and when it gets back to you Cap That Sh!t.

Bet out on turn.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

[ QUOTE ]
"If it looks like AA and it smells like AA, it very well could be K2o".

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. On dry flops like this I get played at a lot by hands like 77 who put me on UI overs and never notice I never stop raising.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

Villain either has AA or else you have the best hand on the flop.

I think that I would bet/3-bet the flop and call down if villain capped.

Otherwise I would lead the turn and river if villain called.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ya, WA/WB is right. I play exactly the same here. You're more likely ahead here...

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize that this is oxymoronic, right? fwiw, this is not even close to WA/WB.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

I play it the same way.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ya, WA/WB is right. I play exactly the same here. You're more likely ahead here...

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize that this is oxymoronic, right? fwiw, this is not even close to WA/WB.

[/ QUOTE ]
we have two outs to improve if we're behind, and it's unlikely villain has more than 5 outs to improve if we're ahead, so...?

if we're popped on the turn when we bet after capping are we folding?

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

[ QUOTE ]
we have two outs to improve if we're behind, and it's unlikely villain has more than 5 outs to improve if we're ahead, so...?

if we're popped on the turn when we bet after capping are we folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a very specific set of circumstances that define WA/WB...this hand meets none of them. Ergo, not WA/WB. That said, standard line against relative unknowns is to give them credit for something if they're still coming at us on the turn, and call down from there. So, cap flop, lead turn, call a raise and c/c the river. Without seeing an ace, anywhere, you can't fold KK without an incredibly strong read.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we have two outs to improve if we're behind, and it's unlikely villain has more than 5 outs to improve if we're ahead, so...?

if we're popped on the turn when we bet after capping are we folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a very specific set of circumstances that define WA/WB...this hand meets none of them. Ergo, not WA/WB. That said, standard line against relative unknowns is to give them credit for something if they're still coming at us on the turn, and call down from there. So, cap flop, lead turn, call a raise and c/c the river. Without seeing an ace, anywhere, you can't fold KK without an incredibly strong read.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say 'none' of them...

It's HU, OOP... that's 2 of the criteria.

It's probably a big pair showdown.... that's another, no? (2 outs to improve whoever has the smaller pair).

KO

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

I think you slowed down too fast here. I cap the flop and lead the turn. I probably even 3bet the turn if raised. I doubt a set is in his capping range here pf, so we are only WB to AA. I think we are WA way more then WB at least with what we know on the flop. If he still goes crazy on the turn I may start worrying about AA, but not until then.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are a very specific set of circumstances that define WA/WB...this hand meets none of them. Ergo, not WA/WB. That said, standard line against relative unknowns is to give them credit for something if they're still coming at us on the turn, and call down from there. So, cap flop, lead turn, call a raise and c/c the river. Without seeing an ace, anywhere, you can't fold KK without an incredibly strong read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why isn't this WA/WB?

We're heads up. We don't know if we are ahead or behind. If we are behind, we're drawing to 2 outs. If we are ahead, Villain is drawing to about the same (maybe a few more). Since he didn't raise PF, we assign a low probability of pocket aces. He may have a set of 8's. I have a hard time believing he has two pair.

I do agree with the line you suggest though.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

You're not HU until the end of the flop. If you're behind, you don't have enough outs to get ahead. You're WAY more likely to be ahead than behind.

As has been said, WA/WB is overused in this forum, almost to mean, generically, that we are either ahead or behind. This simple fact is true so often that we don't need a name for it, or, more precisely, we call it "poker". Moreover, one might play a line that is identical to a WA/WB line for some reason other than being WA/WB.

Hero needs much more evidence of being behind before he should slow down, here.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you slowed down too fast here. I cap the flop and lead the turn. I probably even 3bet the turn if raised. I doubt a set is in his capping range here pf, so we are only WB to AA. I think we are WA way more then WB at least with what we know on the flop. If he still goes crazy on the turn I may start worrying about AA, but not until then.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you made the same mistake that I did when I first looked at this hand. Villain did not raise or cap preflop.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

Assuming that this is a set or passively-preflop-played AA is MUBS. This could be a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] draw, a low straight draw, or even a TPTK-type hand. Cap flop, lead turn, see what happens.

Re: I like it!... erm, no I don\'t.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming that this is a set or passively-preflop-played AA is MUBS. This could be a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] draw, a low straight draw, or even a TPTK-type hand. Cap flop, lead turn, see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. At first I mistakenly thought that villain had limped then capped preflop.

But even if he had, I would still not have slowed down before seeing something like a turn raise.