This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

http://www.pokerhand.org/?373425

As you can see, $400 PL08

I was on the button and dealt,

http://www.pokerhand.org/images/diam6.gifhttp://www.pokerhand.org/images/spade2.gifhttp://www.pokerhand.org/images/club3.gifhttp://www.pokerhand.org/images/spade5.gif

Player Higamus who was kinda LAGy raised pre-flop to $14,
with two callers, one of whom was Lesthugs who seems like a reasonably tight solid player.

Flop comes:

http://www.pokerhand.org/images/diam4.gifhttp://www.pokerhand.org/images/club2.gifhttp://www.pokerhand.org/images/spadeQ.gif

Higamus pots for $69, Lesthugs repots for $276...
I fold.

Anybody think this was a mistake?

The results obviously rankled me:

Turn: http://www.pokerhand.org/images/heart5.gif

River:http://www.pokerhand.org/images/diamJ.gif

Higamus shows: http://www.pokerhand.org/images/club5.gifhttp://www.pokerhand.org/images/diam7.gifhttp://www.pokerhand.org/images/spadeA.gifhttp://www.pokerhand.org/images/diamA.gif

Les Thugs shows: http://www.pokerhand.org/images/diam5.gifhttp://www.pokerhand.org/images/heartQ.gifhttp://www.pokerhand.org/images/spade7.gifhttp://www.pokerhand.org/images/heartA.gif

so I would have scooped.

To my way of thinking, I was on a total draw, with poor prospects for the low, and only a straight draw for perhaps the high. Does anyone think I had enough equity against a range of hands to essentially put in all my chips?

I was totally shocked that no one showed A3.

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

Looks like a standard fold to me. Weird hand though.

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

ugh, certainly can't fault you for folding there. It would seem like the only possible cards you would make $ on would be the A or maybe 3 some of which are undoubtedly in your opponents hands. I don't know, maybe in a multiway hand such a draw has some value. Why does it sometimes seem like in PLO8 the most money is made when you do the wrong thing at the right time, hehe?

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

Thx.

I can't come up with any logical hands that give me much more than 30% EV. I was just wondering from this example if I was starting to shy away from positive EV situations too much at higher limits when people bet before me, but I think not.

I like the way the flop hits my hand, but the betting, especially when we are talking about the probable low cards that people hold just screams "get out". But this is really the make or break stuff of higher limits, choosing which hands to go to war with. If I am at 30% this is a fold, and if I am 40% it is arguably move in against 2 opponents.

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

If it's raised and called preflop and I'm looking at a 23x hand I try and find the fold button. Too many aces are likely gone to make your hand very viable.

As it was, these 2 had some questionable hands to put that kind of $$ in with and you still didn't have 30% on the flop (which hit you as hard as you can reasonably ask for with your hand.)

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1785106
pokenum -o8 6d 2s 3c 5s - ad as 5d 7s - ah qh 5c 7d -- 4d 2c qs
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Qs 2c 4d
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
5s 2s 3c 6d 88 266 400 0 62 348 3 0.273
As 7s Ad 5d 180 297 350 19 0 62 351 0.497
5c 7d Ah Qh 38 84 563 19 0 62 351 0.230

If even one of them has A3 (more likely) then it's even worse:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1785119
pokenum -o8 6d 2s 3c 5s - ad as 5d 7s - ah qh 5c 3d -- 4d 2c qs
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Qs 2c 4d
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
5s 2s 3c 6d 35 150 420 96 0 377 36 0.188
As 7s Ad 5d 180 363 303 0 0 342 71 0.434
5c 3d Ah Qh 52 57 513 96 308 0 105 0.378

I think you are right about the make-or-break stuff of higher limits, but this situation is going to be 'break' (for you) a lot more often than 'make' IMO.

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

I made a post about calling raises with 23xx hands recently on btp. If you can put someone here on AAxx, and 1 caller on Axxx, your are usually drawing dead here for nutlow in most scenarios, as you are assuming you need an Ace to hit to make a winning low. Otherwise, you are generally drawing to non-nut straights most of the time, although I will admit that it is an appealing hand.

Back to your actual hand... seems like too much of a gamble on that flop 3-handed... heads-up, depending on read, I might push it.

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

This a standard fold. Please don't post hands like this. With that action in front of you: someone has a decent made high with likely redraws against your straight + someone likely has A3 + some of your outs are probably dead + and most of the outs which make your hand complete the low << 33% equity. You don't need twodimes to tell you this.

And I'm not sure of your exact hand or the exact high card on the board, but you were getting freerolled all to hell today:

pokenum -o8 2s 3c 4c 6s - ac 5d 8s 3s -- as 5s 9d 6d
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 40 enumerated boards containing As 5s 9d 6d
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s 2s 4c 3c 9 9 31 0 40 0 0 0.613
8s 3s Ac 5d 0 31 9 0 0 40 0 0.388

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please don't post hands like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like Felicia has recently stated, we don't get enough frequent posters.. and fortunately or unfortunately Mendacious has somewhat of a veteran status around here.

Please do not discourage any PLO8 posts. Thanks.

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please don't post hands like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like Felicia has recently stated, we don't get enough frequent posters.. and fortunately or unfortunately Mendacious has somewhat of a veteran status around here.

Please do not discourage any PLO8 posts. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. Also this beats a lot of posts recently by certain people who shall remain nameless, but their screen name starts with an C and ends with an R with ONFISCATO in the middle.

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

I can anagram the "middle part" into NOT FIASCO. badass.

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

[ QUOTE ]
This a standard fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the surface I agree , and I did fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Please don't post hands like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't tell people what to post and what not to post when you are relatively speaking a NOOB!

[ QUOTE ]
With that action in front of you: someone has a decent made high with likely redraws against your straight + someone likely has A3 + some of your outs are probably dead + and most of the outs which make your hand complete the low << 33% equity. You don't need twodimes to tell you this.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the superficial analysis, and in fact it was very wrong. There were no "made highs" possible on that board, not even close, and NEITHER player had A3. It appears as though BOTH players had weak highs with low redraws and were "pushing". As it turns out-- and I am not ashamed to admit that I did need twodimes to tell me-- I still didn't have enough equity to call, even though the flop appeared to hit my hand reaonably well.

The points to be learned or discussed are:

1) What does it say about playing 2356 in position against a raiser and caller pre-flop? (This hand makes it pretty clear you need to flop an A to continue with the hand-- which is fairly elementary, but illustrative. (DaveBreal is right on the money here)

2) You can't just do superficial analysis at higher limits such as "someone has a made high and likely redraws and someone has A3", (which is precisely what I thought at the time) because people will make big Push moves at pots with holdings like top pair or overpair and a 2nd nut low draw.

Incidentally, what do you think of my opponents plays?

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please don't post hands like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like Felicia has recently stated, we don't get enough frequent posters.. and fortunately or unfortunately Mendacious has somewhat of a veteran status around here.

Please do not discourage any PLO8 posts. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dave! You sound so mature. Are you off your meds again? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

No, although my lobotomy was a success.

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

I don't think you can be successful by both calling a preflop raise with that hand after two callers and then folding on that flop. You simply aren't going to flop better than that often enough to have your preflop call be EV+. And as you can see based on your equity, its the preflop action that is more questionable.

As to your opponents play, I don't like LesThugs preflop call but postflop is fine, although at the far end of LAG here. But he needs to be up against AA3/AA5 to be in trouble and is ahead of a number of other AAxx/A3xx hands. If you don't like it, you may have small balls, no gonads, a lack of testosterone, small berries if you follow my drift.

And you'd do well to listen to mxyplk, he gives very good advice and wins in higher games than anyone else i can think of here

-g

Re: This one is bugging me, $400 PL08
 

I agree, the hand really needs an Ace on the flop to do damage, and with a raise and two callers that is a low percentage flop, however, the fold was dictated more by the betting than by the flop. I certainly do not auto-fold my cards on that flop.

As for Lethugs post flop raise, I agree it is ballsy. It is a play I might make, but one I didn't expect to see when the cards were turned over. The ballsy aspect of the play is that it isn't automatic that he will get heads-up with the raise, in which case he could have miniscule EV. I agree he is only in trouble heads-up to an AA3 or AA5 hand, but that isn't so far-fetched either.

Which advise were you referring to by Mxyplk? The only advise I thought he gave was to not post the hand!

How do you know who Mxyplk is, I don't have any hands with anyone with that alias.