Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

I am about halfway thru Slansky's new no limit book. I am looking for comments on his suggestion that preflop raises should differ based on the type of hand you have. I primarily play cash games with avg stacks of 100 bb. I make my raises based on the number of limpers, my position and how the table has been playing.
Sometime there is some drunken tard who will call a 200 dollar raise preflop (I play 5/10 NL) when I have aces so I won't mess around rasing with suited garbage in a game like that. Sometimes the table is tight as hell and 35 will get a table full of folds(time to leave) However I do not see any benefit in raisng more with aces etc. I play many people who will raise to 20-30 all night, Then all of the sudden they will make it 60 to go (always with aces or kings). I would rather have a hand like 55 here than when they make it 30 because I know they have Aces, will never fold them and I will stack them when I hit the 5. BY the same token when they raise to 30 and it comes 8 high I will raise there continueation bet with my 55 b/c they probably missed their AK. It seems to me they are making their hands transparent, without the benefit of dramatically cutting down on implied odds.
There are rare times when a game is so juicy my raises will not always be the same for 2 reasons:
1) The players are so bad raisng for deception is useless. So why would I raise with a 78s etc when nobody will ever fold anything preflop or on the flop?
2) There is a drunken tard who will call a huge overbet preflop( sometimes even an all in). In this case Ill completly overbet my monsters because instead of getting 5 callers for 50 I will get 1 tard to call 300 (or more) preflop.

I would love it if Slansky responded to this post, as he is a big reason I have made money in this game. I will say that I have not finished the book yet, so maybe upon its completion I will feel differnetly, but I appreciate anyones thoughs on the manner.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

So you are asking: I am looking for comments on his suggestion that preflop raises should differ based on the type of hand you have. (your post isn't that clear IMO [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

I'm half way through too, and they (sklanksy and ed miller) suggest you raise more with some hands (small pairs if I recall correctly?) and less with others. On the other hand, they say somewhere that preflop stealing and preflop in general is not that important, because that is only a small part of the potential potsize in the end.

Doesn't that contradict eachother?

edit: In the sizing your preflop raises chapter they discuss: 1. deep stack raise sizing - big raises make big pots, and small raises make small pots
2. make bigger value raises against straightforward players - easier to read
3. make bigger raises against players who fold too much postflop, and 4. the opposite of 3

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

I believe there exists an optimal amount to raise preflop for every scenario, and that this amount changes based on numerous factors, including your hole cards. Raising the same amount is simple and effective, as it does not reveal any extra information. However, I highly doubt it maximizes EV.

Obviously, the question is then what factors should determine the size of your raise, and maybe some people can discuss that here. I just wanted to defend that raising different amounts has the potential to be better than uniform raises.

In my opinion, it applies to post flop situations in poker as well. Always betting the same proportion of the pot, or continue betting a fixed percentage of the time are simple and effective strategies, but certainly can't be the optimal decision in each spot since they do not account for all the variables involved.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

Sorry if I wasnt perfectly clear.Basically I wanna know thought on basing preflp raises on your hole cards.

I'm half way through too, and they (sklanksy and ed miller) suggest you raise more with some hands (small pairs if I recall correctly?) and less with others. On the other hand, they say somewhere that preflop stealing and preflop in general is not that important, because that is only a small part of the potential potsize in the end.

They didnt specifically say small pairs, but did use a hand with 44 as an example.


3. make bigger raises against players who fold too much postflop, and 4. the opposite of 3

I agree with this but it has nothing to do with hole cards.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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3. make bigger raises against players who fold too much postflop, and 4. the opposite of 3

I agree with this but it has nothing to do with hole cards.

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actually it has a whole lot to do w/ what cards you have vs. this type of player. You might wanna raise w/ small pairs or suited connecters big vs. this player since they will fold incorectly on the flop more. when you have AA, usually their folds will be correct.

vs. the bad players you speak of, you might want to raise small with small pairs and suited connectors, building a pot. Then it will stay multiway, and you'll likely have built a very large pot if you hit. With AA or KK vs. these loosies you'll wanna make a big pot right away, hopefully heads up. OF course this works best when the players are really bad, and can't catch on.

But even against decent, thninking players, as long as you mix up, and randomize your amounts some, you can still vary your raises on your cards and not give much, if anything away. You don't base it solely on your cards, but your cards should be one factor you consider when choosing the size.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

If there's a donkey who calls $200, I raise based on cards.

99.9% of the time, I raise based on limpers, and position, has nothing to do with the cards.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

I don't have the book yet (damn mail!), but reading the header of this topic is kinda amusing. If pre-flop raises should differ based on the hand, why not show the hand to everyone on the table?

Giving away information like that can only be done if you also add a certain percentage of pre-flop bluffs, otherwise it's just plain stupid.

I hope this book is not just another attempt to make the fish more predictable for the pros.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

For any of the high stakes players who don't read SSNL this same topic is being discussed there (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&fpart=all) and Ed has replied to some of the questions people have brought up.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

Considering the problems Sklansky seems to have at times with the regulars in this forum, and the fact that he comes across as more of a "limit guy", I will wait for some rave reviews from somebody here before wasting any time and money on the book.

(not good enough to discern the misinformation from any possible decent points he may have to offer.)

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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I don't have the book yet (damn mail!), but reading the header of this topic is kinda amusing. If pre-flop raises should differ based on the hand, why not show the hand to everyone on the table?

Giving away information like that can only be done if you also add a certain percentage of pre-flop bluffs, otherwise it's just plain stupid.

I hope this book is not just another attempt to make the fish more predictable for the pros.

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One of the main objectives from the p/f raising chapter was to dispute the notion that you should always raise the same amount regardless of your holdings/situation/limpers/etc. They are basically debunking the theory that says "always raise the same amount to avoid giving information away."

It goes on to give advice on what to factor in when sizing your bets. It does not say things like "always raise 3x with AA/KK, 5x w/medium pockets, etc."

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

From what I noticed railing NL2k on PS H@££INGGOL sometimes raises 4xbb with mediocre holdings when there are a couple of limpers. Normally someone would bet pot or more here, but I guess he likes to gain initiative in a cheap way so that he can make a smaller cont bet on flop.

I like Phil Gordons theory on raising pf from his Green Book, which says that your pre-flop raises should depend on position. Smaller out of position, larger in position. This way you play bigger pots in pos, smaller oop and there's a bigger chance you steal the blinds. I don't necessarily agree with the numbers he wrote though.

Raising dependant on hand strength would make you easier to read, Gordons idea is better imo.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

Raising small out of position also makes it very unlikely that you take it down preflop. A lot of the strength in raising preflop with a wide range is that you can take it down from any position, and without that ability, you have to change your range to include a much higher percentage of premium hands.

Edit: I think raising larger in early position and smaller in late position would make more sense. Of course, you'll almost never steal the blinds with a 2.5xBB open from the button, but you'll be playing a pot in position against a wider (read: weaker) range than with a 4xBB open. When in early position, your 5xBB open charges people to play pots in position against you.

I stick to a standard open regardless of position, so this could be completely wrong, but it makes some sense to me.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

The concept of playing larger pots in position is something that is to me a lot more important than the reduced possibility of stealing the blinds from EP.

I mentioned that I disagree with the numbers Gordon provided, 2.5xbb oop is one of them (too small).

No idea is without flaws. If you have AA in EP you're still forced to bet smaller.

There is probably no best way to raise pre-flop, since there are too many variables, but Gordons idea is nice thing to consider.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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If pre-flop raises should differ based on the hand, why not show the hand to everyone on the table?


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It's not based only on your hand. Your hand is just 1 factor. If you base it on, position, # of limpers, type of limpers, types of players behind you, and what your hand is... that will usually maximize EV. and nobody, even if they saw you play 1 million hands, would be able to know what your hand is based on your raise size. Because, if you do it properly, you'll have a range of hands, not a single hand for each raise size and situation, and also, you'll be randomizing it a bit, and throwing in some bluffs and semibluffs to throw off those who think they know what you have.

Basically, Ed and David are just saying that you can maximize earn by taking a lot more factors into account, rather than just rigidly doing 3x + BB(limper), or whatever every single time.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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Edit: I think raising larger in early position and smaller in late position would make more sense. Of course, you'll almost never steal the blinds with a 2.5xBB open from the button, but you'll be playing a pot in position against a wider (read: weaker) range than with a 4xBB open. When in early position, your 5xBB open charges people to play pots in position against you.


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Well, I think the raise less in LP ONLY makes sense from the button. from LP, if you make a smaller raise, you'll be less likely to get the button and have position postflop. If you're 1-3 off the button, and are an aggressive player, everyone behind you knows that your openning range is large. With a small raise, people behind you, or the player on the button will be much more likely to call and/or play back at you. Since your openning range will be wide from LP, you certainly don't want that.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

I actually used to vary my raises a lot w/ hand strength being a big part of it. I was very successful using this strategy. But for the past 6 months, I've just been raising the pot regardless because of lazyness and multi-tabling. I'm going to try and get back to varying my preflop raises though. It adds another dimension you can out-think your opponents in...

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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But for the past 6 months, I've just been raising the pot regardless because of lazyness and multi-tabling.

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Yeah. I must admit i've only recently gotten to think more about my PFR's, and WHY i'm making them. And most of the reason i didn't do so for a long time was lazyness while multitabling. I also toyed around with the Phil Gordon idea, and I think I actually liked that better than the "standard" raise every time. I think that Gordon's idea has a lot of merit, and if its adjusted to use game conditions, opponent tendencies and your hand, then it might be optimal or V close.

The thing is, the game is just so dynamic, and complex, and has tons of different things that can happen after your preflop raise until the hand is over. Its virtually impossible to actually prove which preflop play would be "optimal" for a given table and situation. But its at least very, very likely that deviating from a standard preflop formula from time to time will help you increase your EV.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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[ QUOTE ]
If pre-flop raises should differ based on the hand, why not show the hand to everyone on the table?


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It's not based only on your hand. Your hand is just 1 factor. If you base it on, position, # of limpers, type of limpers, types of players behind you, and what your hand is... that will usually maximize EV. and nobody, even if they saw you play 1 million hands, would be able to know what your hand is based on your raise size. Because, if you do it properly, you'll have a range of hands, not a single hand for each raise size and situation, and also, you'll be randomizing it a bit, and throwing in some bluffs and semibluffs to throw off those who think they know what you have.

Basically, Ed and David are just saying that you can maximize earn by taking a lot more factors into account, rather than just rigidly doing 3x + BB(limper), or whatever every single time.

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Well if you raise to differnt amounts with a differnt range of hands, your oppents can ovbiously narrow your range more then they could if you never vary your opening raise.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If pre-flop raises should differ based on the hand, why not show the hand to everyone on the table?


[/ QUOTE ]

It's not based only on your hand. Your hand is just 1 factor. If you base it on, position, # of limpers, type of limpers, types of players behind you, and what your hand is... that will usually maximize EV. and nobody, even if they saw you play 1 million hands, would be able to know what your hand is based on your raise size. Because, if you do it properly, you'll have a range of hands, not a single hand for each raise size and situation, and also, you'll be randomizing it a bit, and throwing in some bluffs and semibluffs to throw off those who think they know what you have.

Basically, Ed and David are just saying that you can maximize earn by taking a lot more factors into account, rather than just rigidly doing 3x + BB(limper), or whatever every single time.

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Well if you raise to differnt amounts with a differnt range of hands, your oppents can ovbiously narrow your range more then they could if you never vary your opening raise.

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well, if you're basing it on a lot of factors, as well as hand strength, and randomizing it too, then they can't narrow it too much. Not to mention most of the times they don't see your hand anyways. So it'd take them forever to gather enough info on you.

If you're randomizing at all, they'd have to do some serious weighted averages, and bayesian analysis in their heads in the middle of the hand to have an accurate idea of what your range could be. and even then, they could maybe say you have range X 60-70% of the time.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

Right - as long as you balance the strategy out, you're not leaking too much. Obviously you don't want to do the standard pot raise preflop then w/ AA and KK raise 2x pot.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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Edit: I think raising larger in early position and smaller in late position would make more sense. Of course, you'll almost never steal the blinds with a 2.5xBB open from the button, but you'll be playing a pot in position against a wider (read: weaker) range than with a 4xBB open. When in early position, your 5xBB open charges people to play pots in position against you.

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I don't like this line of thinking because then you'll be playing larger pots out of position. In general, raising small early and larger in later position works very well for competent postflop players (if you choose to change standard preflop opens)

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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I don't like this line of thinking because then you'll be playing larger pots out of position. In general, raising small early and larger in later position works very well for competent postflop players (if you choose to change standard preflop opens)

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I agree completely, which is why I think there's a lot of merit to Phil G's PFR philosophy. It needs to be fine tuned, but I think its probably a better place to start than the 3x or 4x + #limpers standard.

I think you and me are pretty much on the same line of thinking here gomberg.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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I don't have the book yet (damn mail!), but reading the header of this topic is kinda amusing. If pre-flop raises should differ based on the hand, why not show the hand to everyone on the table?

Giving away information like that can only be done if you also add a certain percentage of pre-flop bluffs, otherwise it's just plain stupid.

I hope this book is not just another attempt to make the fish more predictable for the pros.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the main objectives from the p/f raising chapter was to dispute the notion that you should always raise the same amount regardless of your holdings/situation/limpers/etc. They are basically debunking the theory that says "always raise the same amount to avoid giving information away."

It goes on to give advice on what to factor in when sizing your bets. It does not say things like "always raise 3x with AA/KK, 5x w/medium pockets, etc."

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I guess I have to read it before I can judge it. Right now without additional information it simply sounds wrong.

In draw poker for example you usually draw one card with trips to disguise your hand as 2 pair or flushdraw. Telling the table what you got by the size of your raise cannot be correct, because it violates the Fundamental Theorem of Poker. I am really curious how they want to justify it.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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I am really curious how they want to justify it.

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By mixing it up.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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In draw poker for example you usually draw one card with trips to disguise your hand as 2 pair or flushdraw. Telling the table what you got by the size of your raise cannot be correct, because it violates the Fundamental Theorem of Poker. I am really curious how they want to justify it.

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Right - you have to figure out a way to do it so you don't leak information. For example (very contrived, i know), raise 6xBB w/ AA-QQ 70% of the time, and JJ-55 30% of the time. Raise 3xBB the other times. Also include changes varying by opponents, position, #limpers, image, etc., and do you really think you're leaking information? Even if people have crap ton of hands on you, they still wouldn't really know what you're going to have when you raise 6xBB...

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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In draw poker for example you usually draw one card with trips to disguise your hand as 2 pair or flushdraw. Telling the table what you got by the size of your raise cannot be correct, because it violates the Fundamental Theorem of Poker. I am really curious how they want to justify it.

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Right - you have to figure out a way to do it so you don't leak information. For example (very contrived, i know), raise 6xBB w/ AA-QQ 70% of the time, and JJ-55 30% of the time. Raise 3xBB the other times. Also include changes varying by opponents, position, #limpers, image, etc., and do you really think you're leaking information? Even if people have crap ton of hands on you, they still wouldn't really know what you're going to have when you raise 6xBB...

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There's no doubt that in some situations, raising something other than the standard amount is better. The real question is: is the impact on your winrate so big that you should do it? Many good players raise 4bb + 1 per limper, or a variation on this (I believe samoleus raises less than 4bb for example), and they have fine winrates. How much would your winrate increase?

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

I haven't read the book yet but it seems theoretically sound to vary your raise sizes based on your hole cards (as well as other factors of course). There should be a game-theoretically optimal amount of "mixing it up" necesary to prevent your opponents from using that information effectively.

Personally, I find it difficult to track all the factors necesary to effectively vary my raise sizes while multitabling online. When I play live, I vary my raise sizes frequently due to better reads on my opponents and therefore a better feel for how the different raise sizes will (likely) be interpreted. Multitabling online against an ever-varying lineup of opponents makes it too hard to keep track of what seat X on table Y is likely to believe I'm saying with raise size Z. It sucks to set up a move against the 2 seat only to find somebody else is sitting there when you finally make it. Keeping raise sizes fairly constant based on factors like pot size and position is a good way (for me anyway) to stay out of situations where I'm not sure how my opponents will react to what I'm doing.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

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There's no doubt that in some situations, raising something other than the standard amount is better. The real question is: is the impact on your winrate so big that you should do it? Many good players raise 4bb + 1 per limper, or a variation on this (I believe samoleus raises less than 4bb for example), and they have fine winrates. How much would your winrate increase?

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Yeah - I have no idea how much this will effect your winrate. When I used to do this (while no more than 2-tabling), I was running at 10PTBB/100 at 5-10. Now that I 4+ table, I keep my raises fairly constant and have been running at 7-8PTBB/100. Unfortunately, the sample size isn't statistically significant for me to really know.

Re: Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand
 

I haven't read the book, but it seems like people are getting too caught up in the fact that it suggests that your hole cards should be one factor in determining your raise size, while overlooking the fact that it also suggests changing your raises based upon numerous other factors. In order for someone to get a read on your hand, they have to recreate your ENTIRE thought process. Someone attempting to do this is just as likely to misread your hand as they are to correctly read it. Also, even if the players can narrow your hand range slightly more accurately, you have to consider whether this EV that they gain against you is enough to offset the EV that you are gaining by making a "better" raise in the first place.