Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

Villain has been in a lot of pots. He's obviously limping constantly because he has a lot of chips. He doesn't seem particularly passive or aggressive.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB (t10938)
BB (t10805)
<font color="#C00000">UTG (Villain)/ (t28620)</font>
UTG+1 (t9600)
MP1 (t10350)
MP2 (t12650)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t4765)</font>
CO (t10350)
Button (t7025)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls t200, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t800</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls t600.

Flop: (t1900) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villain checks, Hero ???

I realize this probably seems standard to everyone. I'm going to ask for input on every street, but I want to get a consensus on what my play should be on the flop before I continue.

Thanks!

JoshNjuice

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

I would just make a standard continuation bet of about 1200 and hope he makes a move at the pot. If called, my money is going in on the turn.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

So I made a standard c-bet on the flop (just over half pot).

Does anyone have a problem with this bet? What action would be appropriate on the turn? Please note the relavant stacks. Stack-sizes gave me trouble on this hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB (t10938)
BB (t10805)
<font color="#C00000">UTG (t28620)</font>
UTG+1 (t9600)
MP1 (t10350)
MP2 (t12650)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t4765)</font>
CO (t10350)
Button (t7025)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t200, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t800</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG calls t600.

Flop: (t1900) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1000</font>, UTG calls t1000.

Turn: (t3900) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero ???

I'll share my thinking on the turn after I get some replies. I'd like to see if I'm thinking correctly throughout the hand.

Thanks

JoshNjuice

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

Check behind, call any river bet b/c you are pot committed but if he doesn't bet I wouldn't either.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check behind, call any river bet b/c you are pot committed but if he doesn't bet I wouldn't either.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? Any hand that beats you will get it in, but he will surely call you with weaker hands. I would bet bigger on the flop and I would bet now and if I checked now I would push a blank river if checked to.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

Your flop bet needs to be bigger because the draw potential on that board is huge.
As played, check behind, hit heart or jack on river.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your flop bet needs to be bigger because the draw potential on that board is huge.
As played, check behind, hit heart or jack on river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. Gotta price out the draws on the flop.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your flop bet needs to be bigger because the draw potential on that board is huge.
As played, check behind, hit heart or jack on river.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much bigger?

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

At first glance I'd bet around ~1500. Maybe even overbet the pot against a loose villain, commit him with top pair if he has it.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

Pot-size the flop.

As played, check behind turn and take off the fourth heart. I'm never pushing turn here. He'll fold worse, instacall better and you need a heart/jack river. You know he doesn't have the nut flush, and he knows he doesn't.

If he checks river, check behind a non-heart/jack. Same reasoning as turn. I'm happy with the size of this pot here.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

Ok, so I should've bet more like 3/4 pot to full pot on flop (and pushed any turn, correct?). As played, check behind turn, which is what I did. What's the right play on this river?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB (t10938)
BB (t10805)
<font color="#C00000">Villain (t28620)</font>
Villain+1 (t9600)
MP1 (t10350)
MP2 (t12650)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t4765)</font>
CO (t10350)
Button (t7025)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Villain calls t200, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t800</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Villain calls t600.

Flop: (t1900) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villain checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1000</font>, Villain calls t1000.

Turn: (t3900) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villain checks, Hero checks.

River: (t3900) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villain bets t1200</font>, Hero ???

Thanks to everyone for your input

JoshNjuice

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

1500 is a good bet on the flop.
Bet the turn, at least 1500, you still don't know where your hand stands. The K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is a really big scare card. If you get re-raised, you might be able to get rid of it.

River: as it stands I think you need to push if you are thinkging about calling, you have 3 K, 3 Q, 3 T, 3 7, 1 Ace and any heart (9 max, I'd say FOR SURE 5), so given that all these aren't live I'd say you have AT LEAST 13 outs and at most 16-17, I'd say you have to push.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

I'm totally confused here. Why would I push the river? You're counting outs for a river push?

Also, if I bet 1500 on the turn and he raises, there'll be 6900 in the pot plus his raise. If he moves in after I bet 1500, I'll have to call 1500 to win ~8400, which is much better pot-odds than I'd need to call with the nut flush draw. Why pot-commit myself with this bet? And if I'm going to pot-commit myself, why not push?

JoshNjuice

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

Neh. Villain's river bet is awkward. I think I'm pushing if I think he's FOS. Otherwise, force myself to fold.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

[ QUOTE ]
Neh. Villain's river bet is awkward. I think I'm pushing if I think he's FOS. Otherwise, force myself to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the value in pushing the river here? What hand(s) will Villain call a push with that I can still beat? What hands would he fold that beat me if I just call?

I'm getting better than 4:1 on a call at the river here. Can I beat 20% of his betting range? If I can, I think it's a call; if not, I have to fold as I don't think I have enough chips to make him fold a better hand.

It seems like my only options are call or fold on the river here. Am I missing something?

JoshNjuice

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

[ QUOTE ]
Neh. Villain's river bet is awkward. I think I'm pushing if I think he's FOS.

[/ QUOTE ]If you think he is FOS, why aren't you just calling?

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

I don't think this changes the result too much.

I'm wrong, I go broke. I'm right, I got a nice stack.

Calling only cripples you or wins the same stack.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this changes the result too much.

I'm wrong, I go broke. I'm right, I got a nice stack.

Calling only cripples you or wins the same stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you push he is folding worse hands and calling with better ones. You can only lose more chips by raising.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

I don't disagree. I think my thinking's a bit flawed here from the fact Hero'll have only t1765 if he calls and loses.

Neh. I dunno. I don't think I mind going broke here too much if I want the pot badly enough.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

I am overwhelmingly confused by some of these posts.

AceLuby is counting outs when discussing river action.

And pushing this river has to be completely retarded. I'm also never folding this river, but I don't think folding is COMPLETELY retarded. If you call and lose you stil have 9xBB, which isn't ideal, but sucks less than folding a set of aces on the river for 1/3 pot bet.

Do you think he calls a push with KQ or whatever if you push? Aces up (very unlikely anyway)? Pretty much he calls when you are beat and folds when you are ahead.

There's no way, after checking behind the turn, and facing a loose opp that he has to have your AAA beat. I would say you are winning at least 50% of the time, and getting easily the odds to call.

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

[ QUOTE ]
1500 is a good bet on the flop.
Bet the turn, at least 1500, you still don't know where your hand stands. The K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is a really big scare card. If you get re-raised, you might be able to get rid of it.

River: as it stands I think you need to push if you are thinkging about calling, you have 3 K, 3 Q, 3 T, 3 7, 1 Ace and any heart (9 max, I'd say FOR SURE 5), so given that all these aren't live I'd say you have AT LEAST 13 outs and at most 16-17, I'd say you have to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I"M RETARDED, DON'T MIND ME ARRRR

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this changes the result too much.

I'm wrong, I go broke. I'm right, I got a nice stack.

Calling only cripples you or wins the same stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so if you push, you either have 0 or the pot +1795
If you call, you either have 1795 or the pot+1795

I don't see how this "doesn't change the result much"

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

Would anybody else advocate pushing this flop?

My reasoning is this.

1) There are so many scare cards out there that one of them is going to come on the turn. Worst case, he's got the SFD or 2pr. You've got some redraws against 2pr, and you're 50/50 against the SFD.

1a) You won't know what to do if the turn is any of the scare cards (8,9,T,J,Q,K, any heart, I'm ruling out 7 because he likely won't call a significant bet with bottom pair and no flush draw on such a scary board) because there are so many draws out there that you don't know which one he's on. Only a few of those cards help him, but you have to be afraid of all of them.

2) The pot is already 1900 (half your current stack) which wouldn't be a bad take. Calling him down on the turn or river is going to hurt if you might be behind, and you're ahead on this flop 90% of the time. If you make the pot any bigger, you're both going to be getting good odds to call just about anything.

3) Against Limpy McLimperson here, you're probably going to get looked up by his draws because he wants to play and you'll definitely get looked up by top pair. He'll convince himself that his KJ straight draw is good because he's got a runner runner flush draw and overcards too (he just won't know that you're only giving him 6 outs).

Re: Stars $5 re-buy. AA vs. Very loose player
 

Man, it's creepy that you posted this. I was actually just thinking about this hand and thought, "I wonder if my best move on the flop, given my stack size, is a push?" I was coming to the forum to ask that question when I saw that you had already articulated my reasoning almost verbatim.

I'm curious to hear some responses on this. Given that this is a tournament and my stack size is pretty small, is a push a bad idea here? Also, would the answer be different if I was OOP (say I'm UTG and Villain is in my seat in middle position)?

JoshNjuice